Ace hardware fix for XL650 oal variance. - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Ace hardware fix for XL650 oal variance. (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 10/9/2011 12:13:39 AM EDT

[#1]

Just chucked 100 cartridges out of XL650 in under 8 minutes. Without slinging any Titegroup powder.

Let's see, do some math....

100 cartridges divided by 8, that's 12.5 per minute. That would be roughly...1 loaded cartridge every 5 seconds.

Anyway, side tracked. That's 12,5 per minute which equates to 750 per hour with a slow, steady pull of the handle.

Of course the process is much slower because there's a lot of prep work to get to that point. But, and there always is one.

This is assuming you can sustain that rate. Sustaining rate requires someone feeding case hopper with clean, .380 free brass. Keeping primer tube, case feeder, and powder measure full by second person. Press will sustain 360 cartridges an hour with me on the handle while feeding components myself.

Pretty incredible really. There's an addendum to the update. I would have called it good but ejector wire wasn't right and for two. It doesn't take a whole lot of brain power to improve the mouse trap ejector wire. The blue coats back at Smurfville, Arizona need to invite Mickey Mouse to their next round table engineering meeting and have him account for ejector wire. It has a set of issues all it's own. Hornady ditched their ejector wire for same issue I'm experiencing right now and others who've IM'd stating problems with wire on stock, never touched by me 650's.

Had to get disclaimer in before the assault began.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Update, notice ejector wire has a slight curve now and chrome washer removed. Loaded 200 this morning without one hanging. I liked the chrome washer and think it helped oal variance. Objective is being able to crank shell plate down just a little tighter than set screw will hold while staying suspended. One plastic washer, one thrust bearing is fine. Grabbed a handful of 9mm to check. 1.135 being target oal. Oal varied from 1.133 to 1.137. Not bad for Ranier.

Posted: 10/9/2011 12:25:06 PM EDT

[#2]

Last night I measured about 20 rounds of 223 I loaded on my new dillon 650 and they didnt vary more than .004. This is with 0 modifications to the press.

Posted: 10/9/2011 12:44:04 PM EDT

[#3]

I'm glad you touched on this. Have you made a caliber conversion yet ?

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Posted: 10/9/2011 4:23:12 PM EDT

[#4]

Out of curiosity I grabbed some of my 223 reloads and checked OAL. The rounds that were loaded with air pulled bullets had a wide variety of OAL. The desired OAL was 2.24. They went from 2.2395 to 2.249. Pretty wide. They were air pulled bullets. The long ones and short ones were still seated mid cannular. I'm guessing the variances could be due to the bullets being deformed in some way to the pulling process? Perhaps a collision of manufacturing tolerances? I checked some other loads with my Hornady 55 FMJ bulk bullets. Desired length was once again 2.24. Measurements were from 2.240 to 2.247. One out of the 20 some I measured was 2.248. Not bad for bulk bullets and no modifications. Yes, I have done countless caliber changes with this machine. I'll continue to run it as the manufacturer recommends. It seems to work pretty good for me.

Posted: 10/9/2011 4:24:18 PM EDT

[#5]

I have not used any other calibers, I have a rl550b that I load everything from .40 cal to 300 weatherby. I bought the 650 so I could dedicate it to the 223.
I did how ever have the primer setup off the 650, because of a primer that got wedged when I wasnt paying attention.
I also use my finger to drag on the shell plate to keep the snap down on rotation of the shell plate.

I like the 650 so far. You have to pay a little more attention with the 650 but it is quite a bit faster. I am using hornady 55 grain fmjs.

Posted: 10/9/2011 11:24:41 PM EDT

[#6]

The rest of the story. Dillon uses lock-tite on shell plate bolt or something similar. Least ways on mine, threads seemed gummy threading out for first time. As a seasoned thread chaser, gummy threads equals lock-tite. Out of the box new, 650 was loading Nosler 45acp within average of .005. Swings would measure as much as .010. Box is beside me now, just measured. This was oal variance as tuned from factory with factory installed 45acp shell plate.

When doing first caliber change I thought of re-applying lock-tite, then thought better of it. Clean, oiled threads stay threads and don't get side threaded then stripped. So my conquest began. Variances reported have been with less than match grade bullets. I expect to see oal perfection when loading match grade.

This fix isn't for everyone. Yoose blue kool-aid guys sure get defensive when your precious is put under the lamp. Hornady red punch drinkers reacted too, so don't feel all special and stuff or picked on.

I do get IMs and emails every week from guys who've done the Hornady modification. Same guys who indicated at first, modification was needless. May or may not hear from any 650 guys about modification. (there's a few in communicado now, but it's top secret stuff. They don't want to be accussed of selling out)

Machinery and emotion. It's no different than mixing alchohol with prescription medication.

Anyway. This is nothing more than a report of yet another, in a long series of odysseys experienced by 1911smith. Join along if you like. Sure as hell not trying to sell anything here. This again. The biggest gain in mod is plastic washer. Washer maintains distance needed to index and eliminates the guess work in tightening shellplate bolt.

If'n your press works. Don't fix what ain't broke. If'n it's not operating per yer expectations then this here post may jus be yer fix.

Posted: 10/10/2011 7:30:42 AM EDT

[#7]

Neither one of my dillons had lock tite on the shell plate bolt. It is not needed as the brass screw locks the bolt. I am not getting defensive at all I was just telling my experience. I have had very good luck with dillon presses.

Posted: 10/10/2011 10:35:17 AM EDT

[#8]

I would not put anything under the shellplate on a 650 press, especially a plastic washer. When you raise the ram you want the shell plate to sit directly on the ram, not be cantilevered off of a flexible washer. I am would think this would lead to inconsistent sizing (base to shoulder) do to shellplate flex. I am pretty sure the shellplate was not designed to be used in that fashion, that it needs the support of the ram underneath it. The only scenario where the press is designed to be loaded in this fashion is primer seating, which we will all agree takes much less force than sizing, even pistol rounds.

When you cantilever the shellplate I would also think how many rounds are on the shellplate would have a large impact on shellplate deflection. Further more, as your washer wears you will get more clearance in the works and the shellplate will sit lower and wobble more, when the shell plate sits directly on the top of the ram this doesn't happen.

Measuring the OAL is not a good way to measure consistency, you need to measure to the ogive where the seating stem is contacting the bullet as this is the dimension the press is controlling. My 650 will size and trim +/-.002, a lot of that is dependent on the level of lube in the lube die, an cartridge with less lube will have its shoulder pulled forward when it is removed from a sizing die more than a well lubricated one.

Posted: 10/10/2011 12:15:14 PM EDT

[#9]

I'm tempted to respond to every point you've made, but then I would be re-hashing 3 pages of stuff again.. The burden will have to rest with you my friend, go back and read OP through. Be sure to slow down when reading how thick washer under shell plate is or isn't.

I've got primers seated too deep in cases where 9mm primer pockets are a bit too deep. The tip to ogive point doesn't lend well to 9mm. Through out this entire operation I was using 9mm. If your getting just .002 variance, wow that's pretty good. My experience won't support that claim and here's why.

I've got my shell plate dialed down almost to the point the index will be sluggish. It cannot be dialed down any further. Have checked oal with and without modification. OALs would almost triple. I wished this weren't the case. I could have spent time with other things. Things I enjoy a lot more than having to fix what should have been correct from factory.

A quick google search won't support your claim either. Not saying you don't own and operate a perfect press. No reason to disbelieve you at all. Your claim just isn't my experience is all and I'm a pretty straight shooter. Most everyone on this board knows I report things like it is. Sometimes I have to admit being wrong and I do.......... This ain't one of those times.

I can do this all day long with you guys. Have lived and breathed this press for days. Days that became night and then saw morning again. Check out the times on posts. If someone has something to new to share about 650 I've yet to hear it.

Priming isn't even close to an issue here.

Posted: 10/10/2011 12:26:51 PM EDT

[#10]

I just think that some of the advice you have posted may work alright on a small pistol round but should not be used on large rifle rounds. You can claim it works, it may, but that doesn't make it a good idea from an engineering perspective. There is a high chance it will stop working in short order. I read how thick a washer you used, doesn't make any difference as the principal remains the same. You introduce clearance and remove support under the shellplate, how does that keep the shell plate from tipping? The force from sizing will tip the shellplate down, which raises the side under the seating die. This adds quite a bit to the error potential.

Owning some digital calipers doesn't make one an engineer.

Posted: 10/10/2011 12:37:50 PM EDT

[#11]

No, I don't reckon owning a set of calipers will make one an engineer. That's a good one. I like that line and will remember that one.

Tell you what. I concede your point. Only time will tell. That's a fair point and being from the "Sho-Me" State a point I can appreciate.

I don't know or care to count how many times that gauntlet has been thrown at me. I'll pick this one up. Out of the eight presses I own. This one will see more use than the others, substantially more. I'll just continue to report back say................. every thousand rounds ??

Sound good ?

Press is at one thousand on this modification now.

Posted: 10/10/2011 1:20:54 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

... Yoose blue kool-aid guys sure get defensive when your precious is put under the lamp...
....

Wow.

I've seen no replies that are "defensive"

Seems to me, folks on this tread are trying to help you out.

Twice, you've admitted problems with incorrectly assembling or setting up your 650....

Quoted:
Yes its under the bolt, it's where it has to be. ...

Quoted:
When shell plate catches center bolt no amount of torgue I've applied to part 21 has been able to stop center bolt from threading down and locking index. If I apply any more torgue something is gonna give.
...

Maybe if you spent more time reading the manual, and listening to Dillon Tech Support, and people on this forum who have successful experience with the 650, and less time running to the hardware store, you wouldn't have all this trouble.

Good Day

Posted: 10/10/2011 1:25:06 PM EDT

[#13]

What do you want me to say Derek ? Sorry ?

eta,

I guess I could go there. Sorry for making my press run better. Sorry for showing my work in progress. Sorry for not showing THE OTHER MODIFICATION made to this press.

I could rebut your last post but pictures through out this thread have already done so.

Sorry that the press screams through a thousand rounds now. Sorry that I'll make sure and keep forum updated to how this works for the next ten thousand cartridges.

I'm thinkin some nails were hit solid and I'm thinkin as is. Press runs better with this modification. Least ways mine does.

Wishing you a good day too.

Posted: 10/10/2011 2:06:09 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
What do you want me to say Derek ? Sorry ?

eta,

I guess I could go there. Sorry for making my press run better. Sorry for showing my work in progress. Sorry for not showing THE OTHER MODIFICATION made to this press.

I could rebut your last post but pictures through out this thread have already done so.

Sorry that the press screams through a thousand rounds now. Sorry that I'll make sure and keep forum updated to how this works for the next ten thousand cartridges.

I'm thinkin some nails were hit solid and I'm thinkin as is. Press runs better with this modification. Least ways mine does.

Wishing you a good day too.

keep up the good work as usual 1911, i for one always enjoy your threads, very informative and i always learn something.

Posted: 10/25/2011 8:52:25 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What do you want me to say Derek ? Sorry ?

eta,

I guess I could go there. Sorry for making my press run better. Sorry for showing my work in progress. Sorry for not showing THE OTHER MODIFICATION made to this press.

I could rebut your last post but pictures through out this thread have already done so.

Sorry that the press screams through a thousand rounds now. Sorry that I'll make sure and keep forum updated to how this works for the next ten thousand cartridges.

I'm thinkin some nails were hit solid and I'm thinkin as is. Press runs better with this modification. Least ways mine does.

Wishing you a good day too.

keep up the good work as usual 1911, i for one always enjoy your threads, very informative and i always learn something.

as i just finished reading from top to bottom this thread i have to have been struck with a few random thoughts. rare but it happens. whether 1911smith is RIGHT or WRONG about his percieved OAL issues w/the 650 isn't the issue. the issue is that he BELIEVES there is improvement to be made and he is willing to invest HIS time and effort flesh it out. and share the results. his results will either grow legs and walk on their own or they won't. but nowhere have i read where his attitude is "my way or else". he may not be in love w/dillons customer service but so what, thats not the issue. and i will state unequivacally (SP) that although my 650 is the best dam loader i have owned, SOMETIMES it does spill powder when the shell plate advances. the enos fix mostly fixed that. but the ejector wire is giving me fits using the enos method, and if i can take away from this thread a way to fix that, AND THATS ALL, then i say carry on, thanks for the help! if you are willing to invest your time and ideas to improve my machine.....THANK YOU.

Posted: 10/25/2011 10:24:10 AM EDT

[#16]

I almost sent brass thrust bearing and plastic washer with ejector wires you sent to have tensioned. Just to clear any confusion. The Enos fix is unworkable to my way of thinking. Ejector wire must ride low as intended by Dillon or it will continually deal fits. Probably less fits tensioned but still not ideal.

I haven't loaded a cartridge since my last post in this thread. Been busy with a 1911 for defensive carry thread and a rifle rebuild. Yesterday was my last vacation day so it will be a while before loading more. I'm extremely pleased with outcome to my fix and suggest you ditch Enos fix before using wires. To use Enos fix effectively, tail end of wire should be lengthened and threaded to prevent wire from tilting.

Have a better idea in works for thrust bearing that works with unmodified wire. Details for this will have to wait. Requires some machining. Have no time frame in mind. Rifle reloading has my attention now. Unbolting 650 to mount Hornady LnL Classic. Have 500 plus LaPua brass to reload and load work up before getting all blue and giddy again.

You are correct John, just sharing what I find. While defending my concept as this is how ideas are refined. I could care less who pays attention, who thinks it's a bad idea and most willing to explain or help the few who have interest.

Posted: 10/25/2011 11:55:20 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
[ skeptical ] Yawn

Like "NippsDXer" said, this is old news on the IPSC forums.

Correct! The USPSA shooters (ie "ipsc") discovered this YEARS ago over on BrianEnos.com in the reloading forums. WE load & shoot a lot more ammo than all other gun owners.

Posted: 10/25/2011 12:25:40 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
[ skeptical ] Yawn

Like "NippsDXer" said, this is old news on the IPSC forums.

Correct! The USPSA shooters (ie "ipsc") discovered this YEARS ago over on BrianEnos.com in the reloading forums. WE load & shoot a lot more ammo than all other gun owners.

Really ?? I'll shoot a thousand rounds in the morning, break for lunch and shoot another thousand in the afternoon. Then the next week invite 4 friends out to shoot up 3000 rounds in a few hours.

Assumptious, is that a word ??

I'm curious though, be'ins I'm from the "Sho-Me" and all. How your getting ejector wire to stay down without "torquing" because I've visited with a few 650 Dillon owners who are running ENOS mod and having ejector wire issues. People like Sargent69.

eta.

Another issue I would love to visit about is reasoning for "ENOS" modification. Is it to reduce powder sling ? Reduce OAL variance ? Or both ?

I can see modification working against powder sling. Pretty neat fix for that. My mod as stated many times is for OAL variance, primarily. Powder sling is a secondary issue. My fix addresses both. There is no way "Enos" modification can effectively deal with oal. Many have stated oal variance isn't an issue for them. I believe that to be true. My tolerance for oal deviation is low. Sure you IPSC guys have been shooting with OAL deviations and winning contests for years. I'm of an age to remember where IPSC started and when it was IPSC before IPSC knew it was IPSC. Columbia, Missouri is home for me.

In another thread I'm doing, defensive carry 1911 how to tune and load for. It is an issue and when done the "revelation" will be revealed and a lot of light bulbs will come on. Until that time I'll keep sharpening my points off guys like yourself while refining ideas.

Thanks for your input.

Posted: 10/25/2011 5:00:46 PM EDT

[#19]

I'm on the page that you are looking for a solution without a problem.

I have the bearing mod, I use the bearing directly on the shellplate, and only the top washer under the screw, and I cut about 2 coils off the shell plate spring, I tighten my shell plate down to where it just has a tiny bit of drag and I have 0 problems with OAL in trimming, or finished ammo. My shell plate doesn't wobble at all now.

I give you credit for doing all this work, but I think you are looking for a solution without a problem. Or atleast a problem that's already easily solved.

Now I do think Dillon should update their shell plates for all new presses, (which should work with the old one's too), and cut a circle out in the middle of the shell plate and install the bearing so that it would sit flush with the top of the shell plate. This would be better because it would be built-in to the shell plate and allow the shell plate screw to be screwed in all the way. Of course a longer screw would work too but It would be much cleaner to make the shell plates with the bearing built into it to sit flush.

-Masta

Posted: 10/25/2011 7:31:57 PM EDT

[#20]

Ok, I'll play along. Your saying you have zero oal deviation right ?

Or, are you saying deviation falls within what's acceptable for you ?

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Posted: 10/25/2011 9:55:26 PM EDT

[#21]

I saw that this topic is active again. Today I was developing some 223 loads on the 650. Components were newer FC brass (not the old thin webbed stuff) that was trimmed on the 650 with Dillon's 1200, Hornady 55 FMJBTs, CCI 41s and TAC powder. I reached into the bin and measured the first 20 I pulled out. The variance was 0.0025. That's acceptable to me. At that little of a variation, the difference can be on how you have the cartridge in the calipers.

The 650 that I load small primer cartridges on has ZERO modifications. All dies were adjusted with a case in station 1. I still believe using quality components and setting up the 650 the way the manufacturer recommends is the best modification to do.

On another note, I just can't find a load for TAC that shoots better than H335!!

I think I'll be sticking with H335. Besides, it's made in America unlike Belgium's TAC.

Posted: 10/25/2011 10:25:49 PM EDT

[#22]

Henny, you get no debate from me regarding your post. Tac or 355. You're talkin rifle that's probably meaured with a comparator Regardless your talking rifle and I'm talking pistol. I wish for the sake of this OP we could keep the conversation geared to pistol oal.

I mailed out some hardware this evening to a 650 owner on my dime. I do want to set the tone here. This is being done in the same spirit as reloading equipment I gave away last week I'm not inventing something to sell.

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Posted: 10/26/2011 5:53:11 PM EDT

[#23]

Why would you not chuck a shell plate a lathe and cut out a recess for the thrust bearing on the underside? Granted you would have to machine every shell plate, but wouldn't that eliminate this problem?

Posted: 10/26/2011 7:09:48 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Why would you not chuck a shell plate a lathe and cut out a recess for the thrust bearing on the underside? Granted you would have to machine every shell plate, but wouldn't that eliminate this problem?

Now that is a very doable idea. Then place mylar on top between bolt and shell plate just so there isn't any steel on steel contact. Set up this way is pretty sweet and ejector wire stays flat.

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Posted: 10/26/2011 8:09:09 PM EDT

[#25]

If any of you have an extra bearing I can do this in the next few weeks. Will be happy to pay for the bearing just dont want to go through MMC.

Posted: 10/26/2011 10:07:28 PM EDT

[#26]

Yes, I can mail a bearing. Its really just a copper washer same od as shell plate bolt head 1/2 I'd. You also need a mylar washer.The biggest I'd I found at my Ace Hardware store was 7/16 so center was drilled 1/2. Go back a ways in post for washer dimensions. I have some extras but it would be a few days before mailing.

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Posted: 10/26/2011 10:46:11 PM EDT

[#27]

So why would one not use the Enos thrust bearing on the underside of shell plate to ease the sloshing of powder and make the over all length.

Or since I have a lathe I see it as the solution to everything?

I will try the copper washer mod just for the hell of it. But I do have the powder sloshing problem when I load 9mm.

Posted: 10/26/2011 11:55:36 PM EDT

[#28]

Trim your coil under ball bearing, place mylar washer underside shell plate, brass washer or another mylar up top. Keeping ejector wire level is important and steel on steel contact minimal. The thrust bearing.g you mentioned will not work under plate.

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Posted: 10/27/2011 5:08:45 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Ok, I'll play along. Your saying you have zero oal deviation right ?

Or, are you saying deviation falls within what's acceptable for you ?

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In OAL for finished ammo my deviation is 0.01" with maybe 1 in 100 that will go out 0.002"-0.003", That's acceptable to me. It's more consistant than factory ammo and I think most would agree that is acceptable.

Trimming is close but brass variations cause a little more devation, 99% of my trimmed brass is +/- 0.003 variation, every now and again I will get one piece that just trims to some weird length and is really short.

Of course this is all for .223. For pistol I have ZERO devation. My OAL's on my pistol ammo are MAYBE +/-0.001 over a lot of 1000 rounds.

p.s. As for using a lathe to cut out a place for the bearing to fit inside the shell plate, that's what I said in my first post. I think Dillon should do it from the factory, but I'd love to see someone do it! I don't have the tools or I would do it to mine.

-Masta

Posted: 11/8/2011 2:03:42 AM EDT

[#30]

That's interesting. Dillon says to expect between .005 to .007 after modifying Dillon seating die. Without modification Dillon tech rep said to expect as much as .010.

Frankly, what Dillon rep said to expect fit well within my findings before doing anything to machine.

Right now press is in a cardboard box. All my pistol ammunition is loaded for year and probably into spring. I have two more updates I can mail out if anyone is interested in trying.

Bolted on my stand for now is Hornady AP Classic. It's rifle reloading season at my house. There's two pistols to get out before the boys get home from Iraq and a rifle to do in 300 Win Mag. After these projects are done, who knows what hornet's nest I'll stir next.

IM address for update kits. First two to IM get'em.

edited to add: conversation with Dillon tech was specifically about 45acp.
One mod kit spoken for going to, Buck_Naked

Posted: 11/8/2011 9:34:57 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
That's interesting. Dillon says to expect between .005 to .007 after modifying Dillon seating die. Without modification Dillon tech rep said to expect as much as .010.

Frankly, what Dillon rep said to expect fit well within my findings before doing anything to machine.

What "Modifying" of the DIllon seating die are you talking about? (I haven't read anything about that).

Though I will say that I contribute alot of my consistancy to the use of Redding die's. I use Redding dies exclusivly now. I went from Lee dies to Redding and the Redding die's took care of alot of consistancy problems, I've never used Dillon's dies. For Bullet seating I use Redding's competition seating dies for both pistol and rifle, they have a micro meter on the top to make fine adjustments to the seating depth. For Rifle I have the carbide button installed for inside neck sizing which took care of alot of alot if not not all of the consistancy problems with the button pulling on the neck on extraction and causing it to pull the neck out which then also causes problems with trimming when using any trimmer that indexes from the neck and I only use Dillon or RCBS Spray lube for all my sizing as I've found it the best and most consistant way to lube brass. All my pistol die's are Redding carbide die's as well, however I still lube my pistol brass with a small amount of spray lube just to make resizing easier.

-Masta

Posted: 11/8/2011 3:33:18 PM EDT

[#32]

Dillon suggested mod to Dillon seating die is simple. Place a thin O-ring under clip. Tech said this brought his variance under .007. I've no experience with Redding dies. Dies are only part of the problem though. Still got play in other places that aren't going away. Just the way machine is made.

Anyway. This horse has been beat to death and this thread has progressed beyond the perceived problem for some to a perceived cure.

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Second set going to Magnum_99.

Posted: 11/24/2011 7:41:48 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
i too tried the enos fix solely because the 650 was "sloshing" out powder when the shell plate snapped into place. using the thrust washers and bearings etc etc solved that problem pretty well but i can't get the ejector wire bent correctly. got 3 in and no matter what i do the loaded rds jam up at the out chute. wire keeps popping out of the hole the end goes into. finally said to hell with it and went back to stock and live w/an occassional flake of powder on the shell plate. the precision rifle rds i load on a forester co-ax anyways. even w/this minor annoyance the 650, in my opinion, is light years ahead of the LNL i got rid of. like 1911 pistolsmith, i don't care what color the machine is, i just want it to work. the 650 does. BTW, if any of you guys have a correctly < removed > getting the wire in the right shape is due to my clumsiness, not a fault of the machine.

No buying, offers to buy, or selling in threads. Must be done in IM's dryflash3

With regards to the ejector wire issue, I found this... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=115646

Last post has a link to a PDF that may be helpful.

I am having issues with mine when loading .223. I think I have a bad shell plate, as it seems to be happening with the same location on the shell plate 90% of the time...

Posted: 4/23/2012 10:21:58 AM EDT

[#34]

This was snipped from another OP, where once again my friend from Illinois would like to debate. His snippet was pulled from another OP in rebuttal of my post.

So, I reposted here since this OP was sabatoged, I see no reason to sabotage another man's OP.

Here is his cure. Note what I have high lighted in red. You can only take shellplate down so far because of index. To remove shellplate slop you have to find what Henny will refer to as " fine line ". Too tight and you create unnecessary wear within index.

" My Friend fom Illinois:"

The ejection problem is easily fixed with a very small bend to the ejection wire so that it sits level. Also the shell plate bearing will come with 2 washers and the bearing, I've found no need to install the bottom washer as the bearing will ride on the shell plate, so if you install the bearing directly on the shell plate, then install the top washer, using a very small amount of clear grease, you don't really even need to bend the ejection wire.

As for the snapping shell plate, it has been covered MANY times, this is caused by Dillon setting the shell plate advance "paw" to only advance the shell plate 98% of it's rotation, then rely on the ball detent to "jump" the shell plate into it's 100% rotation.

3 things need to be done to completely get rid of the shell plate jumping issue..

#1 *MOST IMPORTANT* Adjust the shell plate advance "paw" to fully advance the shell plate 100% of it's rotation.
#2 Cut the ball detent spring 1/2-1 coil, this takes some of the tention off the ball detent so it doesn't try to force the shell plate into it's rotation.
#3 The shell plate bearing, this allows you to tighten down the shell plate and take out the slop in the shell plate, which works with the other 2 items to completely remove the shell plate jumping. Also makes the shell plate rotate smoother and takes out any variation caused by the shell plate slop that is present with out being able to tighten the shell plate down.

-Masta

As suggested by Henny;
Try a simple solution first. Incrementally cut 1/2 to 1 1/2 coils off your detent spring under the shell plate. Remember, if you cut too much off, you can't add it back on! Go slow and a little at a time!

Make sure the shell plate bolt has grease on the underside of the head and body.

Adjust the shell plate bolt correctly. What I usually do is tighten the bolt until the press will not operate smoothly, then using my fingers ever so slightly loosen the shell plate bolt until the press runs smooth. Don't forget, there's a brass tipped set screw that holds the shell plate bolt in!

If your shell plate wobbles, you don't have the shell plate bolt tight enough. If the shell plate doesn't rotate smoothly, it's too tight. There's a fine line there and you'll eventually find it. It just takes some patience.

One thing I noticed is when my machine was new it was harder to find that just right tightness. After a few thousand rounds, things started working smoother and they were easier to adjust.

The Dillon Precision web site has a forum with some pretty good information for beginning 650 users. You might want to check it out!

This is mine and isn't as "intrusive" to operation of machine as outlined by MM

Originally posted by 1911smith
As Henny describes there is a fine line with setting shellpalte. Been there, seen it, done it.

It shouldn't be like that but it is. I've tried a number of combinations. Having ejector wire sitting on top of thrust washer is a terrible idea. As mentioned earlier your trading one problem for another.

So once again, I'll step on hallowed blue egg shells while describing how to fix " precious. " Sorry didn't have time today to dig my precious XL650 out of the heap it's buried under. Bianchi Cup is almost here, pistol isn't quite finished yet so this is my focus.

I made up my mind years ago. I might have to make excuses for lousy shooting but I would, never, ever want to make excuses for either my guns or hand loads. This said, my guns and cartridges are tuned to the nines. So are my presses. Let me be clear. NOBODY makes the perfect press.

I tune to perfection.

regardless of brand

(yes, even Lee, without primer feed)

This is picture of XL650 (precious) in one phase of tuning with just one copper washer. Copper washers can be bought at most hardware stores.
Single copper washer with mylar washer under shellplate fixed OAL variance without having to search for " fine line." If you're like me you want to set it and go.

Notice powder spillage. To cure this I simply added another copper washer. Then polished one side of each washer ultra smooth starting with 320 grit paper and ending with 1500. Then place two polished sides against each other. Of course I trimmed coil as Henny suggests.

The problem some have is running shellplate down just past " that fine line " to where index starts to tighten. This takes the wobble out of shellplate and cures oal variance. Problem being the lower you snug shellplate to index the more wear is created within index. Mylar protects necessary spacing between shellplate and index

This picture is a handful of stuff I first brought home to try. For underside washer I used paper thin mylars. Posted just so you could have an idea of what washers looked like. Thicker mylar washers weren't used.

Also, I use enough Tetragrease to leave a thin coat on both sides of mylar washer. You can also leave a fine coat between copper washers. Needle thrust bearings are good idea. Problem is finding one with an OD that fits ejector ring ID.

The real fix is 1050. " I shoulda listened." 1050 is tight bottom and top, advance is smooth. Spending the cost of XL650 should buy a press that doesn't slop powder. Unfortunately the 650 is what it is.

Posted: 4/23/2012 11:23:02 AM EDT

[#35]

Okay Smith,

What's the problem?

Firstly My post wasn't in reply to yours, had nothing to do with yours and as a matter of fact I never even read yours before I posted mine.

Secondly, What is wrong about my post? Everything I said in my post is correct.

So you have a different way of setting up your press, somehow that makes everyone else wrong?

My press is setup exactly how I stated and my press doesn't spill powder at ALL, the shell plate advances like glass, and there is ZERO movement in the shell plate. So what is wrong with what I posted?

You say that I want to debate, it seems again that YOU are the one debating not I. I never said your way was wrong, Just offered my experience and what *I* know works. You however are somehow trying to say that any way but YOURS is wrong?

Anyway, I don't get why you made this post, or directly targeted my post.

It seems as though all you are saying to do is to add a washer under the shell plate & bolt, I don't see how that helps with anything, but if it works, great! The bearing is basically the same thing as your brass washer, except it's got needle bearings in the "washer" which I guarentee is going to be smoother than just a plain round washer! So the only difference is a thin mylar washer under the shell plate, again, I don't really see that helping anything, but if it does, GREAT, I might even try it one day for shits and giggles. But as typical of your posts, they are not real easy to inturpret as it seems you go over and beyond to try and make something simple sound complex prehaps to make your own posts stand out over everyone elses?

There are almost always more than 1 way of doing something, why can't you accept that and not try to make it so YOUR way is the only way anyone can do something or it is wrong?

-Masta

Posted: 4/23/2012 12:05:15 PM EDT

[#36]

There's a couple of issues I didn't want to address in another OP, see'ins as anyone can read we have some dialogue on this topic. I didb't want to do what had already been done, again.

" The bend " in ejector wire destroys buoyancy. I know because I tried the bend. If " tail " on ejector wire were longer so it could be secured below base, having wire on top of washer or bearing might work. (for me at least ) I don't wish to cast doubt over your claims.

Buoyancy in ejector wire kind of bounces cartridges from within shellplate. If you take a hard look at last picture posted you can see I put a slight "bow" in my wire to increase buoyancy. EVERYONE I have visited with has voiced problems with ejector wire after bending.

" The fine line ". Which Henny describes is real. It's an issue that needed to be discussed in your 1,2 and 3 points.

Posted: 4/23/2012 2:07:05 PM EDT

[#37]

Photos are from this link.http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86570

These are photos of thrust bearing. Note how ejector wire sits on top of bearing, offset isn't it ?? Problem being, when a piece of brass hits wire that has ejector marks or any reason for hanging inside shell plate. Brass hits wire and cams ejector wire loop towards top of shellplate bolt. It then can cause ejector wire tail to pop out of base. Regardless whether it does or not. Ejector wire is twisted. Afterwards it's time for new wire.

Posted: 4/23/2012 2:28:24 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
There's a couple of issues I didn't want to address in another OP, see'ins as anyone can read we have some dialogue on this topic. I didb't want to do what had already been done, again.

" The bend " in ejector wire destroys buoyancy. I know because I tried the bend. If " tail " on ejector wire were longer so it could be secured below base, having wire on top of washer or bearing might work. (for me at least ) I don't wish to cast doubt over your claims.

Buoyancy in ejector wire kind of bounces cartridges from within shellplate. If you take a hard look at last picture posted you can see I put a slight "bow" in my wire to increase buoyancy. EVERYONE I have visited with has voiced problems with ejector wire after bending.

" The fine line ". Which Henny describes is real. It's an issue that needed to be discussed in your 1,2 and 3 points.

As I mentioned in my post, if you only use 1 washer ontop of the bearing, and let the bearing ride on the shell plate negating the bottom washer, there is no need to bend or modify the ejector wire at all. I have not bent or modified my ejector wire and have no issues. My ejector wire sits around the bolt head, not under it.

As for "The fine line", I call that learning how to "properly" adjust your press. You can't just screw the shell plate screw down untill tight and run, it's an adjustment, which is why it has a set screw to hold the shell plate bolt from moving once adjusted!

-Masta

Posted: 4/23/2012 2:42:44 PM EDT

[#39]

I'd like to see pictures of your setup. Would that be asking too much ??

eta' complete with how ejector wire is looped around bolt and positioned on top of bearing.

Posted: 4/23/2012 3:17:37 PM EDT

[#40]

1911Smith,

Since I'm sidelined from reloading and shooting for the next few weeks due to this Lyme crap, I dug out my bearing and reset my one 650 up the way I had it when I used the bearing. With the bearing and one washer, things worked ok. I do know that when I ran my 650 like this the ejection wire popped out once in many thousands of rounds. I never bent my wire, and why it popped out I'm not sure. Sometimes things just happen.

One time when I took my machine apart for routine maintenance I did a little more spring clipping and lubricating. I didn't put the bearing and washer back in. Things have been working fine since. Then again, when I reload 45 ACP I use W231/HP-38. With my load the case isn't overly full like with some other powders and I don't have any spilling problems. Once I had my other 650 set up for 223, I never had a problem with powder spilling with my load of H335 or TAC. Before I did any loading with that press I clipped the detent spring and lubed the shell plate bolt up real good, it's been smooth sailing since.

Posted: 4/23/2012 3:28:52 PM EDT

[#41]

Henny, you must have luck of the Irish is all I can say, OR you run your press with a gentle touch. When feeling tension on handle you back off.

This wire has clearly been cammed once. Compare picture to yours. This photo is same as above taken from Enos link.

Note how your loop lays flat and this one doesn't. I'd say your running your press gently. When pushing 12 cartridges a minute, by the time I feel tension it's too late.

Posted: 4/23/2012 3:33:14 PM EDT

[#42]

Well, I just got home and was going to snap a pic, but there's no point now as mine looks exactly the same.

My wire lays flat..

Though I have never had my wire pop out. Maybe Dillon has changed something with newer presses?

The picture from Enos also has BOTH the top and bottom washer installed, which will cause the wire to sit higher.

-Masta

Posted: 4/23/2012 3:52:23 PM EDT

[#43]

Over camming ejector wire is what others were (assuming) talking of in previous OP. There's two variables. Brass and rate of production. If your brass has never been nicked and slide with ease when struck on ejection wire. OR, if operating slow enough to catch tension before wire becomes tweaked. Meaning slower production rate then I can see fewer problems.

Once wire is tweaked, you're screwed.

eta' having ejector wire resting above shellplate, on washer, bearing not only raises loop. It raises ejector wire tail. To compensate tail can be bent down. This is why wire either cams and twists or tail pops loose from base.

Posted: 4/23/2012 4:21:13 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Well, I just got home and was going to snap a pic, but there's no point now as mine looks exactly the same.

My wire lays flat..

Though I have never had my wire pop out. Maybe Dillon has changed something with newer presses?

The picture from Enos also has BOTH the top and bottom washer installed, which will cause the wire to sit higher.

-Masta

Masta,

They may have changed things over the years. However, the press I photographed is from the early to mid 90s. I compared it to my other 650 that I picked up in 2010 and the wire lays the same.

1911Smith,

I'll take luck and a light touch any day!

I try not to force things when reloading. It took me a while to learn that lesson!

I've broke a lot of decapping pins in the past! I guessing I run my press at about the same rate everyone does when they're reloading handgun rounds. It takes 8 - 10 minutes between primer refills. Sometimes longer, sometimes shorter. It just depends on how many bullets I drop. Reloading 223 takes a little longer, as I like to ensure all the powder gets in the case. That's a lesson I learned a little quicker! I don't like having to stop to clean up powder off the shell plate.

Posted: 4/23/2012 6:05:15 PM EDT

[#45]

No disagreement here on handle tension and slow consistant pulls.

Except.

XL650 is rated at 600 plus an hour. If advertised as such it should run as such.

Press was bought for pistol shown in previous post. With some work it's now tuned to run 500 to 600 an hour after coming off a day at range. I've never said it's my way or not at all. What I have done is researched what works and doesn't work in my mode of operation.

Keeping ejector wire flat against shellplate was one issue of importantance.

Second was being able to snug shellplate down easily to sweet spot without much guess work.

Third was getting rid of steel on steel friction which causes shellplate bolt to break free of brass tipped retaining screw.

If thrust bearing works for some, most or whoever. Fine by me.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Ace hardware fix for XL650 oal variance. (Page 2 of 2)

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