Guys,
I placed a WTB ad on Sturmgewehr for a Lage Max-11 upper for an M-11A1 and got a response from a guy who wanted to sell one. We negotiated a price that we're both happy with (not a too good to be true price, $800 shipped) but I can't shake the feeling that it feels almost like a scam.

He has responded promptly and in full sentences with normal English but it seems like he is being hesitant to send me a mailing address for the USPS money order. Plus he's in Los Angeles which begs the question of why he owns an upper that is only useful for a F/A gun when he lives in a ban state. I suppose it's possible that he is a dealer of some sort but still.

Am I just being paranoid?

Thoughts on doing business via an anonymous site like Sturmgewehr?

Go with your gut, if it feels like a scam it probably is.

Ask him to send you pictures with a hand written note visible.

All he has to do is send a picture with hand written note and date...if he wont do that it is a scam

Agreed. Sturm has had a rash of scams as of late. Not that being in La is a deal breaker to me, I sold a couple of MG's to a guy who resided in La, but had a home in AZ as well.

this

verify the deal is legitimate first

Thanks guys. I asked him to do just that about 18 hours ago. Still no response. Looks like I may have dodged a bullet. He ended up sending me a mailing address but was very eager about asking for my address. He asked about 5 times which is what made alarms go off.

I responded to several ads there from people who said they were in Texas.  When I said I would meet them in person to pay and get the forms signed I never heard from them again.

I do remember about a year ago posting a few WTB ads.  

When I got to closing the first deal, the selling insisted on a Western Union MoneyGram over a USPS MO.  These have been so abused by scammers that even Western Union recommends their use to send money only to people you know.  No thanks...

The other seller ended up being in England.  I know they can have some stuff over there, but it just didn't seem legit.

Trust your gut as it hasn't gotten better.

I was close to being scammed from an ad on Strum.  It all fell apart when I asked for specific pictures. Got excuses about camera being broke and then no more contact.  Later I found the pictures he was using on a dealer site.
I would be very cautious.

Yup, the "good old days" are officially over

seems like scams are popping up every day

Don't rely on the "memo" such as your name or email address next to the item on the pic.
The scammer from strum actually photoshopped it and sent it back to me.
It was a good one too.  
It looks like the scammer always ask your location in order to avoid FTF sale.

Reverse image search, see if the pictures pop up anywhere else.

It would be nice if the sites that have scammers made an effort to bust them, thus scaring off new scammers.

There really isn't much a website can do to "bust" them, other then maybe block their IP address.

Hand them over to law enforcement officials for mail fraud or other possible fed. charges?



 

Do you really believe that would do anything? Who would they turn them into? You can't file a police complaint if you don't live in the police jurisdiction, or at least had a problem in their jurisdiction. The website owners aren't party to a crime, they just happened to have an anonymous online place for two people to make a deal for trade. How would they have anything to do with the transaction or pressing charges?

As an LEO I'll tell you Internet scams are next to impossible to make arrests. They occur over numerous jurisdictions, victim in one state, suspect in another, with a couple of other states used as dummy drops for yer money order. The Feds won't get involved unless the dollar amount exceeds something like $10k (don't quote me on the exact amount). The criminals have much better computer equipment than we do and the really good ones cover their tracks quite well.

The only recourse is for people to be vigilant and not fall victim to the obvious ones. That said, some of the really good scammers do a really good job of selling their scams. Best advice, don't send any amount of money to an unknown source if your not willing to lose it.  I keep my online dealings to under $500. I don't WANT to lose that kind of money, but if I do I won't be in some hardship without it.

Sounds like you missed being scammed.  If you have any questions about something like this, it's best to avoid.

Asking for a few specific extra photo views might help, like the underside of the front, or a view of the chamber, or the muzzle, or some other obscure area not shown and unlikely to be in any seller's photos.

They may actually have something and not send it to you.

It's hard to get a feel for someone who has no rep, whereas on ARFcom's EE  or GB you can see how long they've been around and sold other items.

I rarely buy from boards like STG if they have no rep: I search for their name, or their email. A newbee on STG with no history I'd post for a reference check.

Get their phone # and talk to them. Get their addy.  It's your money so you have to think of ways to protect it.

Even after all your due diligence, you can still be ripped off, but trying everything to find out more about the seller will reduce the risks.

Oh, and post the scammer's info here and other places, like STG... force him to make up new names and emails....

Seem like a system or checks could be put in place to minimize the scams.

Obviously this would more work for sites like Sturm and Subguns and giving their current almost free or almost free pricing model...so it probably isn't feasible unless they raise their rates.  

However,  if they really wanted to clamp down on scams they could require a picture of any gun listed  with a random code of the subguns choosing on a piece of paper laying on top of the gun with two rubber bands around it to conform the paper to the item making photoshop much more difficult.   Ad doesn't go up until copies of F4s are provided, copy of their ID provided which matches the F4, and said photo verification of the item as described are provided.  Obviously regulars like ruben, etc. wouldn't need to do this or offer it as an option.  $5 ad for an uncertified ad, and $50 for a certified one.  Would theoretically be easier for the seller as well so you don't have to take different pictures with different folks email addresses on top of the gun proving you actually own it.

The other option would be to develop a network of recommended appraisers (dealer, RKIs, etc.) similar to the Bowers Recommended Dealers list that would be willing to check guns and paperwork for prospective buyers for a reasonable fee (say ~$50 to $100).  Find a bowers recommended appraiser in the area where the gun is located and ask them to meet with the seller to verify the gun exists, ID is good, F4 is real.   Recommended appraiser could then report back to the buyer and save them a plane trip.  Similar to how folks on this site have offered to look at guns for folks worried about getting scammed.  Just make it a more formal process available to the masses.

Edit: Removed and moved to General. Thanks for the help.

Which would normally be fine, but you'd need one in every city in the country to work. I thought of offering up the service, but the buyer would have to be willing to pay for the costs, and even with large airports you'd be looking at $1000 at the very least, and could be a $2500 added cost for distant areas.

Guys, thankfully someone was able to find the original ad for the upper. It sold on here of all places. The guy went so far as to shop a name and date over the original photo. Just figured I'd share to let you guys know so someone else doesn't get screwed like I almost did
ETA: Removed info to comply with forum rules. Apologies.

Yup, coverage would be dictated based the extent of the network.  Obviously you will never have somebody in every corner of the county but I don't think it would be hard to cover say the top 25 to 50 metro areas.  Probably wouldn't work financially if you had to pay somebody to fly for you, might as well do it yourself once you have the ticket cost baked in.  Whole idea was to get in person verification without paying for an airline ticket.  That said, if the seller lives on a ranch in northern Montana than you are probably SOL with this idea.  Granted I suspect most scammers don't live on a ranch in Northern Montana so it makes is a bit more challenging to have a mark send the scammer funds somewhere they don't live in the first place in order to collect the check.

Take Texas as an example, you could cover the vast bulk of the State population center-wise just having 6 people, one in San Antonio, Austin, Houston, Dallas, El Paso, & Corpus.  Within an hour drive of these population centers lives probably 75% of the population in the state. Most major cities already have a reputable dealer or two, so just use them for the verification service and a feedback loop if dealers start poaching guns from prospective buyers.  

You will never stamp out all the scammers and they will always try and adjust.   But given how prevalent it is now I don't think I would buy anything off subguns or sturm without an in person visit anymore, which as more and more people get burned or wont send money, it damages the overall liquidity of the guns.  Just almost seems like a shark feeding frenzy of folks getting scammed when I see notes on subguns every other day to "contact authorities if you have sent fund to this ad".

Easy step in my mind is the website are going to have to start taking more steps to reduce the scams or they may start to open themselves up to a lawsuit one day (justifiable or not) as subguns and sturm appear to provide little to no ad or seller verification.  When folks are getting taken for 5 digit amount of money, eventually a certain percentage are going to call their lawyer to try and make somebody pay.

Shit that is a fairly decent run at you over an $800 item.  Good call on the photoshoped pic check, I honestly am not sure if I would have caught that at first glance.   Guess if I ever request a photo it needs to be specified a real certain way to make photoshopping much more difficult and then hopefully easier to spot.

This is kind of odd.
If you search for his name, there is a sex offender that pops up a few miles away.
http://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/CA1869501200864/Jaime-Etal-Figueras.html

Additionally, if you search the address, it is also the last known of another sex offender.
http://www.homefacts.com/offender-detail/CA27408154M1759/Jashaun-Nyamekye.html

They were both convicted of the same charge.
Did these guys meet at their parole officers office and decide to set up the scam?

Might be nothing but just seemed like an unusual coincidence.

How about a piece of paper attached to the gun with a number or word you select and a video posted to youtube?

Be real hard to photoshop a number onto a piece of paper on a video.

Personally, I plan to add the cost of a round trip plane ticket to any private purchase I make unless it's on gunbroker, which supplies a history and feedback that I can check.

or you could ask the seller to bring the gun to a gunshop and have the gunshop do a verification on the gun and paperwork for a small fee

I personally will NOT be sending any money to some stranger unless I can absolutely verify the deal somehow.  Otherwise, I'll just stick to dealers.


I've posted stuff like this before and had a few people reply that it's a seller's market and as a seller they wouldn't take any extra trouble to provide any proof that the deal is legit.

That's fine by me, if the seller wants to be stubborn then he can keep the gun.  I cannot just send a $10,000 or $20,000 check to the twilight zone and hope for the best.