I have a question about loose breech and MIG welding and would greatly appreciate some advice.
I've heard that gunsmiths do TIG welding to fix loose breech, but can a regular wire feed welder do the same? (Getting the same results you would with TIG that is, or at least be reliable for shooting?)
One other question too, can you heat up a metal part (steel) to 500-800 degrees without ruining the heat treatment? (annealing temperature is 1100 degrees + if I'm correct.)
Thanks for your help.
what do you mean by loose breech and in what type of pistol? it may be more practical to get in something like a 1911 for instance- a repalcement oversize barrel that then gets hand fit
Originally Posted By captain127:
what do you mean by loose breech and in what type of pistol? it may be more practical to get in something like a 1911 for instance- a repalcement oversize barrel that then gets hand fit
Loose breech is the play between the locking lugs of the slide and barrel. You can feel for it on any pistol that's not a blowback pistol. (I believe.) (A ruger 10/22 is a blow back gun.)
Just move the slide back 1/16" to 1/8" and put your finger on the barrel and wiggle it. That is loose breech and if you have too much, it's not good for your barrel's locking system in the long-run.
And replacing a barrel is more expensive then welding, and that's why I wonder if a wire feed welder can do this job reliably (TIG welders are also expensive.)
Are we talking 1911's?
If so, wire feed welder is going to leave too much crap in the barrel hood weld up, and will just be chasing your tail with pin holes in the new added surface when you go to remill the hood to the needed length and wides. With a tig, you can cleanly flow metal solid from the same metal as the barrel filler rod to over build up the hood area's, and have a clean add on surfaces when the barrel hood is re-milled.
I have been Mig welding for quite a while, with a ton of time on delicate autobody sheet metal. I would not Mig weld on a 1911 barrel, or recommend it.
I did add some height to a front sight on an older gallery gun with Mig, to give you an idea of the level of control I have. You would not be able to see that it was welded, even if I pointed it out to you.
Originally Posted By AdmiralMH:
Originally Posted By captain127:
what do you mean by loose breech and in what type of pistol? it may be more practical to get in something like a 1911 for instance- a repalcement oversize barrel that then gets hand fit
Loose breech is the play between the locking lugs of the slide and barrel. You can feel for it on any pistol that's not a blowback pistol. (I believe.) (A ruger 10/22 is a blow back gun.)
Just move the slide back 1/16" to 1/8" and put your finger on the barrel and wiggle it. That is loose breech and if you have too much, it's not good for your barrel's locking system in the long-run.
And replacing a barrel is more expensive then welding, and that's why I wonder if a wire feed welder can do this job reliably (TIG welders are also expensive.)
If you moved the slide back the action is no longer locked.
Thanks for your help. I had the suspicion MIG welding could be too porous. Just wanted to make sure.
As for the pistols I'm referring too, I'm referirng to "all" delayed blowback pistols. 1911's included.
[ To address brickeyees statement ]
( A potential correction I must state. You may also may be able to feel for loose breech with the slide locked up as well. I have not seen a 1911 in a long time so I don't recall exactly if you must unlock the slide to test for this or not.When I referred to unlocking the slide, you only have to do it ever so slightly to release the slide's tension on the barrel so you can feel for that play.) If you don't have too unlock the slide for loose breech tests, then I stand corrected, if not, then we must unlocked the slide to feel for it. I'm still learning.
Mig is not porous if done correctly. It is slightly harder to control than TIG, and a bit less precise.
Originally Posted By wildearp:
Mig is not porous if done correctly. It is slightly harder to control than TIG, and a bit less precise.
Thanks for the info.
Originally Posted By AdmiralMH:
Thanks for your help. I had the suspicion MIG welding could be too porous. Just wanted to make sure.
As for the pistols I'm referring too, I'm referirng to "all" delayed blowback pistols. 1911's included.
[ To address brickeyees statement ]
( A potential correction I must state. You may also may be able to feel for loose breech with the slide locked up as well. I have not seen a 1911 in a long time so I don't recall exactly if you must unlock the slide to test for this or not.When I referred to unlocking the slide, you only have to do it ever so slightly to release the slide's tension on the barrel so you can feel for that play.) If you don't have too unlock the slide for loose breech tests, then I stand corrected, if not, then we must unlocked the slide to feel for it. I'm still learning.
Movement locked up would not be good, but there is always some play between the barrel and bushing since they have to move.
The goal is to minimize any excessive free play at lockup and for the first 0.1 inch or so of slide movement since the bullet has NOT cleared the barrel during that time.
Welding up parts is not done much anymore since high quality oversize parts are easily available now.
By the time you weld up and then dress down you could have purchased a high quality part and fitted it.
If you want to poke around get at least Kuhnhausen, Volume 1.
It is very good about fitting, though he has an error about slide movement prior to bullet exit.
The slide has moved about 0.1 inch back before the bullet has exited.
Mig welding material almost as thin as beer cans is do able with the right amperage and .023 wire.
Of course it takes a lot of practice but I've laid beads down with mig that looked tig welded.
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Mig welding material almost as thin as beer cans is do able with the right amperage and .023 wire.
Of course it takes a lot of practice but I've laid beads down with mig that looked tig welded.
OK, Impress us,
Mig two razor blades together and post it.
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Mig welding material almost as thin as beer cans is do able with the right amperage and .023 wire.
Of course it takes a lot of practice but I've laid beads down with mig that looked tig welded.
must be a sloppy tig welder.
Nobody has mentioned how welding a barrel hood (MIG or TIG) will affect the tempering of the hood, andTIG more so because of the higher heat output. There are special precautions that are taken when the professionals do this to control the heat because as mentioned earlier once over 500 -700 degrees the tempering is shot. Most things are silver soldered for this reason. I would be careful or you will end up with a nice tight locking hood that will blow off when fired. Better to just replace the barrel if its that bad.
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Nobody has mentioned how welding a barrel hood (MIG or TIG) will affect the tempering of the hood, andTIG more so because of the higher heat output. There are special precautions that are taken when the professionals do this to control the heat because as mentioned earlier once over 500 -700 degrees the tempering is shot. Most things are silver soldered for this reason. I would be careful or you will end up with a nice tight locking hood that will blow off when fired. Better to just replace the barrel if its that bad.
tempering of the hood
Not much of an effect on unhardened metal that is not loaded much in use (and if correctly fitted should not see much impact loading either).
The availability of oversize parts has greatly reduced the need to weld up 1911 components and then fit them.
It was required a while ago when oversize parts did not exist.
Now it is not really worth the effort.
Originally Posted By Dano523:
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Mig welding material almost as thin as beer cans is do able with the right amperage and .023 wire.
Of course it takes a lot of practice but I've laid beads down with mig that looked tig welded.
OK, Impress us,
Mig two razor blades together and post it.
This is what I'd use to join razor blades. This will flame at 6500 degrees inside an emptied cigarette paper and not catch paper on fire.
Op, what I'm conveying is unless you"re an experienced welder don't try with mig. If you are then switch to.023 wire.
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Nobody has mentioned how welding a barrel hood (MIG or TIG) will affect the tempering of the hood, andTIG more so because of the higher heat output. There are special precautions that are taken when the professionals do this to control the heat because as mentioned earlier once over 500 -700 degrees the tempering is shot. Most things are silver soldered for this reason. I would be careful or you will end up with a nice tight locking hood that will blow off when fired. Better to just replace the barrel if its that bad.
I've seen Jason Perkins tig weld a hood and never knew it was done unless told.
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Nobody has mentioned how welding a barrel hood (MIG or TIG) will affect the tempering of the hood, andTIG more so because of the higher heat output. There are special precautions that are taken when the professionals do this to control the heat because as mentioned earlier once over 500 -700 degrees the tempering is shot. Most things are silver soldered for this reason. I would be careful or you will end up with a nice tight locking hood that will blow off when fired. Better to just replace the barrel if its that bad.
I've seen Jason Perkins tig weld a hood and never knew it was done unless told.
Is Jason Perkins a professional gunsmith? Im not but I could weld a hood and refit it so that nobody could tell, untill I fired it
. My point was that there is specific ways that things of that nature are performed and its not the best idea for just anyone to be welding on parts that contain explosive pressures.
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Nobody has mentioned how welding a barrel hood (MIG or TIG) will affect the tempering of the hood, andTIG more so because of the higher heat output. There are special precautions that are taken when the professionals do this to control the heat because as mentioned earlier once over 500 -700 degrees the tempering is shot. Most things are silver soldered for this reason. I would be careful or you will end up with a nice tight locking hood that will blow off when fired. Better to just replace the barrel if its that bad.
I've seen Jason Perkins tig weld a hood and never knew it was done unless told.
Is Jason Perkins a professional gunsmith? Im not but I could weld a hood and refit it so that nobody could tell, untill I fired it
. My point was that there is specific ways that things of that nature are performed and its not the best idea for just anyone to be welding on parts that contain explosive pressures.
The barrel hood is not a high stress part.
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Nobody has mentioned how welding a barrel hood (MIG or TIG) will affect the tempering of the hood, andTIG more so because of the higher heat output. There are special precautions that are taken when the professionals do this to control the heat because as mentioned earlier once over 500 -700 degrees the tempering is shot. Most things are silver soldered for this reason. I would be careful or you will end up with a nice tight locking hood that will blow off when fired. Better to just replace the barrel if its that bad.
I've seen Jason Perkins tig weld a hood and never knew it was done unless told.
Is Jason Perkins a professional gunsmith? Im not but I could weld a hood and refit it so that nobody could tell, untill I fired it
. My point was that there is specific ways that things of that nature are performed and its not the best idea for just anyone to be welding on parts that contain explosive pressures.
Yes, Jason is a gun smith and I have a lot of history with heavy equipment maintenance. Jason and I are good freinds with a good exchange of opinions and ideas. A welded barrel hood isn't uncommon.
Go to South Fork Arms/Perkins Custom LLC. Homepage. I'd make link hot except for posting on hand device.
You tell me if he's a gunsmith.
in the old days- think when Armand Swenson was building 45's- they didn't have match grade barrels and welding barrels and reshaping for precise lug fit was done commonly. With match grade barrels cheap (relatively) today there's really no need togo to the trouble of welding and refitting barrel hoods/locking lugs etc.
Originally Posted By captain127:
in the old days- think when Armand Swenson was building 45's- they didn't have match grade barrels and welding barrels and reshaping for precise lug fit was done commonly. With match grade barrels cheap (relatively) today there's really no need togo to the trouble of welding and refitting barrel hoods/locking lugs etc.
I can see your point and counter with a scenario that I've experienced.
It's called woops. Then welding back a couple thousanths I just shaved off barrel hood with end mill.
It's done and it's an acceptable practice.
Another scenario. Glock factory barrels can have a little more slop than desired. Lock up is within Glock tolerances but a little loose for a few. I've seen Jason tig weld weld those for accuracy. I've got a tricked out G34 we did this too.
I concede your point when comparing labor costs to new barrel price except the discussion in this forum at least is gunsmithing. Do what you have the talent for or hire done with replacement costs certainly a part of decisions.
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Nobody has mentioned how welding a barrel hood (MIG or TIG) will affect the tempering of the hood, andTIG more so because of the higher heat output. There are special precautions that are taken when the professionals do this to control the heat because as mentioned earlier once over 500 -700 degrees the tempering is shot. Most things are silver soldered for this reason. I would be careful or you will end up with a nice tight locking hood that will blow off when fired. Better to just replace the barrel if its that bad.
I've seen Jason Perkins tig weld a hood and never knew it was done unless told.
Is Jason Perkins a professional gunsmith? Im not but I could weld a hood and refit it so that nobody could tell, untill I fired it
. My point was that there is specific ways that things of that nature are performed and its not the best idea for just anyone to be welding on parts that contain explosive pressures.
Yes, Jason is a gun smith and I have a lot of history with heavy equipment maintenance. Jason and I are good freinds with a good exchange of opinions and ideas. A welded barrel hood isn't uncommon.
Go to South Fork Arms/Perkins Custom LLC. Homepage. I'd make link hot except for posting on hand device.
You tell me if he's a gunsmith.
I figured he was a gunsmith because of the way you refered to him and that was my point. Welding on a barrel hood is a very sensitive thing and should be performed by a profesional that completely understands metalurgy and the effects of excessive heat buildup and how to avoid it in the process. Not by just anyone with a MIG welder in their garage.
And to the guy that said that a barrel hood is not a high stress area? Its part of the chamber! It is high stress indeed. Not necessarily its purpose in lockup but it helps contain a great deal of pressure.
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Originally Posted By 1911smith:
Originally Posted By AK_Jay:
Nobody has mentioned how welding a barrel hood (MIG or TIG) will affect the tempering of the hood, andTIG more so because of the higher heat output. There are special precautions that are taken when the professionals do this to control the heat because as mentioned earlier once over 500 -700 degrees the tempering is shot. Most things are silver soldered for this reason. I would be careful or you will end up with a nice tight locking hood that will blow off when fired. Better to just replace the barrel if its that bad.
I've seen Jason Perkins tig weld a hood and never knew it was done unless told.
Is Jason Perkins a professional gunsmith? Im not but I could weld a hood and refit it so that nobody could tell, untill I fired it
. My point was that there is specific ways that things of that nature are performed and its not the best idea for just anyone to be welding on parts that contain explosive pressures.
Yes, Jason is a gun smith and I have a lot of history with heavy equipment maintenance. Jason and I are good freinds with a good exchange of opinions and ideas. A welded barrel hood isn't uncommon.
Go to South Fork Arms/Perkins Custom LLC. Homepage. I'd make link hot except for posting on hand device.
You tell me if he's a gunsmith.
I figured he was a gunsmith because of the way you refered to him and that was my point. Welding on a barrel hood is a very sensitive thing and should be performed by a profesional that completely understands metalurgy and the effects of excessive heat buildup and how to avoid it in the process. Not by just anyone with a MIG welder in their garage.
And to the guy that said that a barrel hood is not a high stress area? Its part of the chamber! It is high stress indeed. Not necessarily its purpose in lockup but it helps contain a great deal of pressure.
Go look at how much of the case head sides are even in contact with the hood.
While it is part of the chamber, it is also over the head of the case where the brass is taking the load.
Even noticed that the extractor groove does not flow and fill?
Ever wonder why?
The case head brass itself is taking the load.
