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Posted: 6/18/2016 12:33:49 PM EDT
[#1]
What are your goals and expectations? Wouldn't bother on a blaster but if you are building with a high quality barrel and accuracy is your goal it might very well be worth it.
No real downside that I am aware of. |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 1:32:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Takes almost no time to do so why not if you have the tool. If you don't put it together and see how it groups. If you zero adjustment is excessive from mechanical zero it is worth doing.
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Posted: 6/18/2016 1:44:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Kind of a why not thing to me, I plan on getting the tool and doing all of mine from now on.
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Posted: 6/18/2016 4:07:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What are your goals and expectations? Wouldn't bother on a blaster but if you are building with a high quality barrel and accuracy is your goal it might very well be worth it. No real downside that I am aware of. There is a downside, however, it may not be that big a deal, but it is a downside. Anodizing prevents an electrical bond between the steel barrel extension and the aluminum upper, no electrical bond no galvanic corrosion. If your lapping cuts completely through the anodizing there is the possibility of corrosion. |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 4:07:32 PM EDT
[#5]
It's a blaster, but with a good barrel. Crap ammo.
Have a friend who has the tool, he already dropped it over. It's one of those things. Never done it, didn't know if I could cause more harm. |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 4:33:05 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a blaster, but with a good barrel. Crap ammo. Have a friend who has the tool, he already dropped it over. It's one of those things. Never done it, didn't know if I could cause more harm. If it's a blaster using crap ammo I wouldn't waste my time |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 6:24:08 PM EDT
[#7]
Corrosion? I don't think so Tim. MAYBE it is THEORETICALLY possible but not in my experience. I have lapped every upper I have ever done so that numbers around 40, and I am the guy who never leaves anything alone. I have torn down uppers in the last year that I assembled over 10 years ago in order to change forends from YHM to MI, so of couse I pulled the barrels. In NONE of them have I seen any sign of galvanic corrosion on the face of the upper's threads. Is it possible, sure, I guess, but does it really happen? Not in my experience. If it doesn't corrode in 12 years I don't think it is something to worry about.
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Posted: 6/18/2016 6:38:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Corrosion? I don't think so Tim. MAYBE it is THEORETICALLY possible but not in my experience. I have lapped every upper I have ever done so that numbers around 40, and I am the guy who never leaves anything alone. I have torn down uppers in the last year that I assembled over 10 years ago in order to change forends from YHM to MI, so of couse I pulled the barrels. In NONE of them have I seen any sign of galvanic corrosion on the face of the upper's threads. Is it possible, sure, I guess, but does it really happen? Not in my experience. If it doesn't corrode in 12 years I don't think it is something to worry about. Not theoretically possible, just possible. But then, how many of your rifles were subjected to 72 hours of salt spray.... Worry, no, but it is a drawback..... |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 8:33:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not theoretically possible, just possible. But then, how many of your rifles were subjected to 72 hours of salt spray.... Worry, no, but it is a drawback..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Corrosion? I don't think so Tim. MAYBE it is THEORETICALLY possible but not in my experience. I have lapped every upper I have ever done so that numbers around 40, and I am the guy who never leaves anything alone. I have torn down uppers in the last year that I assembled over 10 years ago in order to change forends from YHM to MI, so of couse I pulled the barrels. In NONE of them have I seen any sign of galvanic corrosion on the face of the upper's threads. Is it possible, sure, I guess, but does it really happen? Not in my experience. If it doesn't corrode in 12 years I don't think it is something to worry about. Not theoretically possible, just possible. But then, how many of your rifles were subjected to 72 hours of salt spray.... Worry, no, but it is a drawback..... I wonder if Aluma black or one of the pens would work as a stop gap. |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 8:39:20 PM EDT
[#10]
In the marine environment stainless in bare metal contact with aluminium will cause the aluminium to "sacrifice". There are various products which can be applied to isolate the two metals. One that has a high heat rating, doesn't wash out, doesn't migrate is Tefgel. A very light coating on both surfaces will provide years of protection. If you don't soak your weapon in saltwater this application should be good for many years. And if you do this stuff will keep the aluminium protected. Cost is about $13 for a syringe with applicator brush.
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Posted: 6/18/2016 10:10:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not theoretically possible, just possible. But then, how many of your rifles were subjected to 72 hours of salt spray.... Worry, no, but it is a drawback..... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Corrosion? I don't think so Tim. MAYBE it is THEORETICALLY possible but not in my experience. I have lapped every upper I have ever done so that numbers around 40, and I am the guy who never leaves anything alone. I have torn down uppers in the last year that I assembled over 10 years ago in order to change forends from YHM to MI, so of couse I pulled the barrels. In NONE of them have I seen any sign of galvanic corrosion on the face of the upper's threads. Is it possible, sure, I guess, but does it really happen? Not in my experience. If it doesn't corrode in 12 years I don't think it is something to worry about. Not theoretically possible, just possible. But then, how many of your rifles were subjected to 72 hours of salt spray.... Worry, no, but it is a drawback..... And it's also possible for BPA's to cause cancer....I like to live dangerously so I reheat my "do not reheat" Chinese food containers and still drink from my non-BPA free Nalgeen bottles. |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 10:11:58 PM EDT
[#12]
I wouldn't bother with lapping an Aero upper that's going on a range gun. Aero makes really good stuff, and it's unlikely that one of their uppers will be out of square enough, or sloppily anodized enough to cause any issues with seating your "good" barrel nice and square.
I see three valid reasons for "bothering" to lap the face of an AR upper: > You're building a precision gun with a very high quality barrel, and you want to make sure everything is as perfectly square and centered as possible. In that case, you're going to be doing a lot of other prep on the upper, and lapping is only one of many steps. > You're having trouble getting a standard barrel nut torqued properly - it either lines up a notch under 30 foot-pounds or won't line up the next one until you get past 80 foot-pounds. This is kind of the flip side of using shims to get your barrel nut to torque correctly. > You can see or otherwise identify uneven anodizing thickness, or the forging isn't quite square. (If it's quite a bit out of square, I'd return it, since that's way out of spec.) |
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Posted: 6/18/2016 10:38:20 PM EDT
[#13]
I tried lapping an Noveske upper yesterday and the tool wouldn't even fit into the upper. Any of you run into this issue? Had to put the barrel in the freezer before installing and used the barrel nut and wrench to pull it into place.
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Posted: 6/18/2016 11:38:05 PM EDT
[#14]
I lapped an upper because the rear sight had to be adjusted way off center to put a round on target. Lapping corrected the issue. Now lap all uppers since I have the tool.
Alumablack the unfinished metal if you want and grease with what ever your using on the threads. I've stopped using the alumablack and just grease now. If you lap the upper too far, the feed ramps won't line up and the extension will go into the receiver too far. Just take off enough so the metal is exposed all around the ridge. I've taken it down further to get the hand guard to align properly, but that's it. I also shim while I'm at it to get the best fit. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 12:29:29 AM EDT
[#15]
I followed the directions. I was going to lap until 80% but I did a bit less. Very interesting. I expected a circular, equal wear. However, the wear was very uneven.
I know I will not be able to tell the difference with this upper. Being that is was the first time I did it, and actually saw the uneven wear, gives me a bit of pause. I'm glad I did it. From reading the directions to being done, less than 5 minutes. I don't know if I would have done it if I had to buy the tool. I'm glad I had access to it. |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 10:21:18 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I followed the directions. I was going to lap until 80% but I did a bit less. Very interesting. I expected a circular, equal wear. However, the wear was very uneven. I know I will not be able to tell the difference with this upper. Being that is was the first time I did it, and actually saw the uneven wear, gives me a bit of pause. I'm glad I did it. From reading the directions to being done, less than 5 minutes. I don't know if I would have done it if I had to buy the tool. I'm glad I had access to it. Uneven wear pretty much means that the face was not square from the get go. I may have to invest in one of these tools. Any chance you can put up a picture of the results? |
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Posted: 6/19/2016 10:31:16 AM EDT
[#17]
Lapping will square the barrel mount to the receiver action. This needs to be done if you find that your rear sight is crank one way or the other on windage.
Lapping will not make your gun more accurate like bedding a stock on a bolt action rifle. Paint the face with some white paint and then run the tool for a few turns. If it is even then no need to square it up. Remove the paint and build it. If it is removed uneven lap just enough until the tool is hit the entire face. As some said you can remove material to make a hand guard or barrel nut fit better or with less torque. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 8:56:43 AM EDT
[#18]
I didn't even think of taking pictures. I wish I had.
I have no basis on makin any accuracy claims on what I did. I was surprised it did remove the anodizing and some material unevenly. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 4:09:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Uneven wear pretty much means that the face was not square from the get go. I may have to invest in one of these tools. Any chance you can put up a picture of the results? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I followed the directions. I was going to lap until 80% but I did a bit less. Very interesting. I expected a circular, equal wear. However, the wear was very uneven. I know I will not be able to tell the difference with this upper. Being that is was the first time I did it, and actually saw the uneven wear, gives me a bit of pause. I'm glad I did it. From reading the directions to being done, less than 5 minutes. I don't know if I would have done it if I had to buy the tool. I'm glad I had access to it. Uneven wear pretty much means that the face was not square from the get go. I may have to invest in one of these tools. Any chance you can put up a picture of the results? Or the tool is not square to the face from the get go, because it can't be. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 4:36:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or the tool is not square to the face from the get go, because it can't be. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I followed the directions. I was going to lap until 80% but I did a bit less. Very interesting. I expected a circular, equal wear. However, the wear was very uneven. I know I will not be able to tell the difference with this upper. Being that is was the first time I did it, and actually saw the uneven wear, gives me a bit of pause. I'm glad I did it. From reading the directions to being done, less than 5 minutes. I don't know if I would have done it if I had to buy the tool. I'm glad I had access to it. Uneven wear pretty much means that the face was not square from the get go. I may have to invest in one of these tools. Any chance you can put up a picture of the results? Or the tool is not square to the face from the get go, because it can't be. I have read quite a few negative reviews for the Wheeler lapping tool not being square on the lapping surface. |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 7:44:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have read quite a few negative reviews for the Wheeler lapping tool not being square on the lapping surface. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I followed the directions. I was going to lap until 80% but I did a bit less. Very interesting. I expected a circular, equal wear. However, the wear was very uneven. I know I will not be able to tell the difference with this upper. Being that is was the first time I did it, and actually saw the uneven wear, gives me a bit of pause. I'm glad I did it. From reading the directions to being done, less than 5 minutes. I don't know if I would have done it if I had to buy the tool. I'm glad I had access to it. Uneven wear pretty much means that the face was not square from the get go. I may have to invest in one of these tools. Any chance you can put up a picture of the results? Or the tool is not square to the face from the get go, because it can't be. I have read quite a few negative reviews for the Wheeler lapping tool not being square on the lapping surface. I always wondered how that was kept in check with these tools. Sounds like it's not |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 8:45:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I always wondered how that was kept in check with these tools. Sounds like it's not Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I followed the directions. I was going to lap until 80% but I did a bit less. Very interesting. I expected a circular, equal wear. However, the wear was very uneven. I know I will not be able to tell the difference with this upper. Being that is was the first time I did it, and actually saw the uneven wear, gives me a bit of pause. I'm glad I did it. From reading the directions to being done, less than 5 minutes. I don't know if I would have done it if I had to buy the tool. I'm glad I had access to it. Uneven wear pretty much means that the face was not square from the get go. I may have to invest in one of these tools. Any chance you can put up a picture of the results? Or the tool is not square to the face from the get go, because it can't be. I have read quite a few negative reviews for the Wheeler lapping tool not being square on the lapping surface. I always wondered how that was kept in check with these tools. Sounds like it's not Not all such tools are created equal. The Wheeler tool is pretty new to the market compared to the Brownell's tool. I've read negatives about the Wheeler tool, but not about Brownell's tool. Considering the $10 list price difference between the two, I'd forget the Wheeler model and go with Brownell's tool. Another issue is that BOTH Wheeler and Brownell's suggest that you should use these tools attached to an electric drill. That nearly guarantees too much torque and too much speed. This is a finesse job, so using the tool by hand seems to be called for. If you have enough "excess" material to go through that you need the drill's power, you have a really bad upper! |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 9:04:52 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not all such tools are created equal. The Wheeler tool is pretty new to the market compared to the Brownell's tool. I've read negatives about the Wheeler tool, but not about Brownell's tool. Considering the $10 list price difference between the two, I'd forget the Wheeler model and go with Brownell's tool. Another issue is that BOTH Wheeler and Brownell's suggest that you should use these tools attached to an electric drill. That nearly guarantees too much torque and too much speed. This is a finesse job, so using the tool by hand seems to be called for. If you have enough "excess" material to go through that you need the drill's power, you have a really bad upper! THIS ^^^ |
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Posted: 6/20/2016 9:11:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Another option that I think would have better tolerances would be the lapping tool from Pacific Tool & Gauge. It is only $28 compared to the Brownells at $34 and the chuck shank is longer.
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Posted: 6/21/2016 10:25:55 AM EDT
[#25]
I recently started using the tool from Brownells. Using the correct grit and a power drill it is not difficult to slowly remove surface imperfections which to me is the point most of the time - to provide a consistent flat finish for the barrel to sit against. It is interesting to see that there are high and low spots on the receiver face that reveal themselves as you go along. There is a surprising amount of unevenness.
The AR was never designed to have a bedded barrel as most of us think of it. It was designed to be able to quickly swap out burnt out barrels and achieve a certain level of accuracy. But is fun and satisfying trying to minimize potential uneven contact spots in mounting a barrel. Next, I'm going to bed a nice 18" precision barrel into a billet upper, just haven't decided exactly how. Might use the stainless steel shim/green locktite method, not sure. |
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Posted: 6/21/2016 10:28:10 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another option that I think would have better tolerances would be the lapping tool from Pacific Tool & Gauge. It is only $28 compared to the Brownells at $34 and the chuck shank is longer. Linked it for you here. |
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Posted: 6/24/2016 9:18:18 PM EDT
[#27]
Would I lap & bed a cheap barrel, in a PSA upper, with a delta ring and A2 hand guards? No.
Would I check a Billet upper, with a Noveske barrel, and free float hand guard? Yes. I think it is something to check BEFORE the upper is assembled, not to go back looking to solve a problem later. The major purpose I would want a tight barre/receiver fit(bedded), and a solid clamping surface at the extension(lapped), and no forces on the barrel(freefloat) is for a consistent Vibration Pattern with each shot. For bedding I would prefer shim material, Loctite next. ETA: Lapping and bedding doesn't make the barrel stiff and stable. Look at some of the slow motion videos on youtube. |
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Posted: 6/24/2016 9:41:14 PM EDT
[#28]
As I understand it, Anodizing is clear and extends into the metal surface. So just because you see silver color does not mean you have exposed the bare aluminum.
Correct me if I'm wrong, of course. |
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Posted: 6/24/2016 9:54:01 PM EDT
[#29]
I bought a lapping tool and have done 4 uppers now and havent really noticed them not being square in the first place. Its honestly probably a waste of time.
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Posted: 6/24/2016 10:13:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I bought a lapping tool and have done 4 uppers now and havent really noticed them not being square in the first place. Its honestly probably a waste of time. I've lapped 2 uppers that were grotesquely not square. Before lapping I had to use 2 shims for barrel nut alignment and the barrel wasn't centered in the handguard. When I lapped, you could clearly see the high point of the receiver as material was being taken off. Some receivers need it and some don't. |
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Posted: 6/25/2016 2:30:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As I understand it, Anodizing is clear and extends into the metal surface. So just because you see silver color does not mean you have exposed the bare aluminum. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course. Class 1 Type III hardcoat produces a characteristic dark gray-black color that is the color of the aluminum oxide reaction products, while Class 2 Type III has dye added. So, no, it's not clear. If you see silver, you're through the anodized coating. Anything with a Type II coating (room temperature) might be "clear," but unless you're thinking of a boutique upper (fuschia, anyone?) that's not likely to be what you're seeing on an upper. |
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