User Panel
Jim, you mentioned the Razor HDII's JM-1 reticle has ranging capability but I'm positive it doesn't, I even asked in the Vortex forum. So positive I went back to swarovski's 1-6 BRT-I
Well that's what the rep at Shot said. I wouldn't call it useful ranging as it's drop lines are 10" wide at distance and ranging 10" wide object with a 6x scope is not what I would call a precision operation or one with a high probability of success. Looked like about 10" wide at distance drop lines to me at Shot though so I don't have much reason to doubt the rep. I could change the rating in the table to no on the range estimation but than I would have to change it for all scopes that have a poor system and that's darn near all of them isn't it. I'm going to stand by my call but your call on the ranging of the Swarovski being better is a fair enough judgement. |
|
|
I guess it is "possible" to range with, but it isn't easy. a math genius could probably do it, I wouldn't know where to start.
the widths of the hashes are: 1st one down: 2.865 MOA wide 2nd one down: 2.15 MOA wide 3rd one down: 1.7 MOA wide 4th one down: 1.435 MOA wide a bit more info here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_277/226139__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Ranging_with_the_RAZOR_HDII_.html&page=1#i1880619 the swarovski BRT is easier to range with as the substentions are in equidistant spaced in 1 mil. but I wish it had some if the RAZOR HDII's features |
|
|
I guess it is "possible" to range with, but it isn't easy. a math genius could probably do it, I wouldn't know where to start.
the widths of the hashes are: 1st one down: 2.865 MOA wide 2nd one down: 2.15 MOA wide 3rd one down: 1.7 MOA wide 4th one down: 1.435 MOA wide a bit more info here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_277/226139__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Ranging_with_the_RAZOR_HDII_.html&page=1#i1880619 the swarovski BRT is easier to range with as the substentions are in equidistant spaced in 1 mil. but I wish it had some if the RAZOR HDII's features Well that is very interesting. Not 10" at distance but rather about 8.6". I remember that size from some research I once did on average human proportions. It's the size of a head. Doesn't change the practical difficulties with trying to range with the system but interesting nevertheless. I will go back and change the shot report to reflect the better information. Thanks for the heads up, Jim |
|
|
Jim - after reviewing your reviews and other research, I think I've narrowed down my choices of optics for my new FN Scar 17s to the following but I have some questions before plunking down $1-1.5 grand which I am hoping you can help me with.
-Vortex 1-6x Razor HD Gen II -Leopold 1-6x VX-6 Multigun -SWFA SS HD 1-6x24 Tactical First, have you had a chance to get familiar with the Leopold Multigun...I believe you did a review of the Mark VI scope but I haven't seen any reviews of the VX-6 multigun that has the fire dot illuminated reticle. Also, have you had a chance to get familiar with the SWFA SS HD 1-6x scope? The specification information on the SWFA is hard to locate so I'm not sure what bells and whistles it has. Lastly, what do you think will give me the most bang for my bucks. The most important requirements are the following besides accuracy and clarity of optics are: -true 1-6x variable power (1-8x would be great but too expensive for me) -rugged build for hard use -CQC ease of use Thanks for your input. |
|
|
I have a SS 1-6x, what information would you like?
I have also had some trigger time one the VX-6 Multigun. I have no practical experience on the Vortex, but have looked through one. My initial impression was positive if it and I felt the glass was a touch better than the other 2. The Multigun is a lot of scope for the money and is well made. The illumination is great but the ranging characteristics leave a little to be desired for me personally. The SS is far from my favorite and I'll be selling it soon. The thing is heavy, and I'm not particularly fond of the reticule. It's built well and the glass is clear. The adjustments are nice and the caps are a nice option, though I wish they were smaller. They get hung up on other rifles when trying to put the rifle in a rack at a 3-gun match. The reticule gets cluttered by design at 3-5 power but on 1x and 6x it's great. Overall it's a nice optic, but I got some trigger time on a Leupold MK6 and I'm sold. All 3 you listed are great, but due to ease of getting one and features, I'd probably get the Multigun out of those choices. |
|
|
Jim - after reviewing your reviews and other research, I think I've narrowed down my choices of optics for my new FN Scar 17s to the following but I have some questions before plunking down $1-1.5 grand which I am hoping you can help me with.
-Vortex 1-6x Razor HD Gen II -Leopold 1-6x VX-6 Multigun -SWFA SS HD 1-6x24 Tactical First, have you had a chance to get familiar with the Leopold Multigun...I believe you did a review of the Mark VI scope but I haven't seen any reviews of the VX-6 multigun that has the fire dot illuminated reticle. Also, have you had a chance to get familiar with the SWFA SS HD 1-6x scope? The specification information on the SWFA is hard to locate so I'm not sure what bells and whistles it has. Lastly, what do you think will give me the most bang for my bucks. The most important requirements are the following besides accuracy and clarity of optics are: -true 1-6x variable power (1-8x would be great but too expensive for me) -rugged build for hard use -CQC ease of use Thanks for your input. The VX-6 Multigun optic review is on the top of page 22. You have presumably found the Vortex 1-6x Shot report in the middle of pg 24. I have no hands on experience with the SWFA HD 1-6x. Others have intimated to me that it may be based on the same optical platform as the GRSC 1-6x and Bushnell 1-6.5x. This is speculation since all three are scopes whose manufacture is subcontracted and the identity of the maker as well as the actual optical design contracted is not information that has been made available to me in most cases. I expect that this speculation is pretty good though even if not totally accurate. You may read the reviews or shot reports on those optics to get a good ideal of what to expect from the SWFA with the exception that the GRSC has an excellent reticle whereas the SWFA has, instead, an excellent warranty. |
|
|
So the Mk6 is in your future?
Curious what you think about it versus the Vortex 1-6, it will be fun to compare.
Originally Posted By 33shooter: I have a SS 1-6x, what information would you like? I have also had some trigger time one the VX-6 Multigun. I have no practical experience on the Vortex, but have looked through one. My initial impression was positive if it and I felt the glass was a touch better than the other 2. The Multigun is a lot of scope for the money and is well made. The illumination is great but the ranging characteristics leave a little to be desired for me personally. The SS is far from my favorite and I'll be selling it soon. The thing is heavy, and I'm not particularly fond of the reticule. It's built well and the glass is clear. The adjustments are nice and the caps are a nice option, though I wish they were smaller. They get hung up on other rifles when trying to put the rifle in a rack at a 3-gun match. The reticule gets cluttered by design at 3-5 power but on 1x and 6x it's great. Overall it's a nice optic, but I got some trigger time on a Leupold MK6 and I'm sold. All 3 you listed are great, but due to ease of getting one and features, I'd probably get the Multigun out of those choices. |
|
|
Originally Posted By 33shooter:
I have a SS 1-6x, what information would you like? I have also had some trigger time one the VX-6 Multigun. I have no practical experience on the Vortex, but have looked through one. My initial impression was positive if it and I felt the glass was a touch better than the other 2. The Multigun is a lot of scope for the money and is well made. The illumination is great but the ranging characteristics leave a little to be desired for me personally. The SS is far from my favorite and I'll be selling it soon. The thing is heavy, and I'm not particularly fond of the reticule. It's built well and the glass is clear. The adjustments are nice and the caps are a nice option, though I wish they were smaller. They get hung up on other rifles when trying to put the rifle in a rack at a 3-gun match. The reticule gets cluttered by design at 3-5 power but on 1x and 6x it's great. Overall it's a nice optic, but I got some trigger time on a Leupold MK6 and I'm sold. All 3 you listed are great, but due to ease of getting one and features, I'd probably get the Multigun out of those choices. Main question on the SWFA SS scope is whether the scope can be used for CQC on 1x power. I would prefer the Leopuld Multigun or even the Leopuld 1-6x VX-6 with firedot but I'm a little concerned about the distortion that Jim refers to at 1x when using it with two eyes open CQC situations. Also, the SWFA SS seems like a pig compared to Leopuld. I think it weighs 22 oz? Seems to defeat the purpose of having a light weight battle rifle (i.e. SCAR 17) by utting almost 1.5 pounds of scope on it. ' |
|
|
BigJimFish - any way you can put the table you have on page one into excel format for download? I'd like to have it in a table that I can then sort on other things like weight, length, cost, etc...
|
|
Originally Posted By Birddog1911: These internet tough guys and pixel patriots are really getting on my nerves.
|
Originally Posted By AustinWolv:
So the Mk6 is in your future? Curious what you think about it versus the Vortex 1-6, it will be fun to compare.
Originally Posted By 33shooter:
I have a SS 1-6x, what information would you like? I have also had some trigger time one the VX-6 Multigun. I have no practical experience on the Vortex, but have looked through one. My initial impression was positive if it and I felt the glass was a touch better than the other 2. The Multigun is a lot of scope for the money and is well made. The illumination is great but the ranging characteristics leave a little to be desired for me personally. The SS is far from my favorite and I'll be selling it soon. The thing is heavy, and I'm not particularly fond of the reticule. It's built well and the glass is clear. The adjustments are nice and the caps are a nice option, though I wish they were smaller. They get hung up on other rifles when trying to put the rifle in a rack at a 3-gun match. The reticule gets cluttered by design at 3-5 power but on 1x and 6x it's great. Overall it's a nice optic, but I got some trigger time on a Leupold MK6 and I'm sold. All 3 you listed are great, but due to ease of getting one and features, I'd probably get the Multigun out of those choices. I was able to get some trigger time on the MK6. I'm sold on it! The Vortex is nice too and would be my second choice. The SS on 1x is ok for CQC. I found the reticule very fast on 1x. But it's a bit heavy. |
|
|
Bubinga2 - Thanks for the pics. The Bushnell looks interesting but I don't have a clue as to how good of a product bushnell makes. Can you let us know what you think of the build quality and your thoughts on generally if its a good bang for your buck variable power scope?
Thanks. |
|
|
I'm still checking it out. I have a match this weekend, weather permitting, and will get more time with it. As far as bang for the buck... I think anything in this price range is crazy. USO, S&B, NF, Bush.... I think its crazy and I'm crazy, but having fun being crazy.
Actually the glass is better than my Leupold Mark 4 which it replaced. It's brighter and sharper. I saw my 223 hole at 200 yds and splashes on steel at 400 yds. I think FFP helps a lot for the longer shots. It's easier to hold for wind and elevation without worry about what zoom it's set to. |
|
|
Originally Posted By jaypkay:
Bubinga2 - Thanks for the pics. The Bushnell looks interesting but I don't have a clue as to how good of a product bushnell makes. Can you let us know what you think of the build quality and your thoughts on generally if its a good bang for your buck variable power scope? Thanks. I thought the Bushnell Elite series was pretty good for the money when I had it. I've used the 4200 series for a while and it's been really reliable on holding zero at ranges over 500+. Sold mine to fund another project, but I did like it. |
|
|
The Weaver Tactical 1x5 is actually 9.5 inches long. The specs listed here say 10.3. Great work with the research on this page , very helpful.
|
|
|
Really a very big thank you, especially to BigJimFish, but to the others who have written here, too.
An absolute great write-up, thanks a lot for sharing this! But after all, for me there is a question left behind, which I can´t answer or don´t understand. Why have all this scopes, which could (and were) used for service or duty DMR, such small front lences with 20-24mm? In fact that means, that all of them have a con against other scopes with bigger front lenses in low light conditions. So this "duty" - scopes are suboptimal, when dusk approaches. Is there a reason for this or is there an advantage, that I don´t understand? Begging for advice. |
|
|
Good question! The answer to that one is related to the size of the dark-adjusted iris in the human eye. If the exit pupil is already larger than your iris at night, extra objective diameter wont make things any brighter at all.
The front lens only has to be 'big enough'. Extra diameter (and exit pupil) doesnt help beyond a point. Looking at the minimum exit pupil on most low power optics, youll find they're big enough to fill the iris with light. FWIW, older eyes have smaller iris apertures at night than younger eyes, so its possible a young kid would benefit a little from a slightly larger objective. This is also why most 3-9 scopes are 40mm and not 50mm or larger. It simply doesnt help any beyond a point. I cant remember if a larger objective makes the eyebox any more forgiving. IIRC it doesnt, but I'd have to do some research to be sure. |
|
|
If this has been mentioned before, I apologize for missing it, but:
Is there any chance of seeing someone's review of the Trijicon VCOG when it becomes available? |
|
|
Originally Posted By Chrome308:
I cant remember if a larger objective makes the eyebox any more forgiving. IIRC it doesnt, but I'd have to do some research to be sure. Thank you sir, I appreciate the response. I´m curiously waiting for your results. |
|
|
I am happy to update you all that I think that the scheduling is now in good order for the 1-8x reviews. Scheduling scope companies is like herding cats except that the cats are sometimes not sure if they exist and when they will be produced. The Bushnell 1-8.5x is currently in transit. They are also sending me the exciting 1 mile fusion ARC binos to play with at the same time. Leupold (Mark 8 and 6), USO, and March now have firm dates and will be reviewed together with the Bushnell in Mid July. The Trijicon VCOG will also be reviewed at some point this summer. I expect that I will still have the Leupold and USO on hand at that time but the timing of all this is still speculative.
As for S&B, S&B is one of those cats I mentioned. I have one last ditch request in with S&B but the probability is that they will not be in the review because they are still not in production on the 1-8x and likely won't be this year. I still have an S&B 1-8x review planned but, regretfully, it will not likely be with the other 1-8x optics. |
|
|
Just in case it has not been said yet
Thanks for all the time you have put into this it is really great. |
|
C co 2/325th AIR 91-96 11B1P
|
|
|
Originally Posted By BigJimFish:
Here is a teaser pic from day one of testing. Since that time all but one set of tests has been completed. I am hoping that the first review will be done in two weeks with one review to be posted each week until they are all done. <a href="http://s363.photobucket.com/user/BigJimFish/media/teaser_zps6520ad6d.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/teaser_zps6520ad6d.jpg</a> View Quote wow! Thats some high priced glass to review! |
|
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast!"
|
Originally Posted By BigJimFish:
Here is a teaser pic from day one of testing. Since that time all but one set of tests has been completed. I am hoping that the first review will be done in two weeks with one review to be posted each week until they are all done. <a href="http://s363.photobucket.com/user/BigJimFish/media/teaser_zps6520ad6d.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/teaser_zps6520ad6d.jpg</a> View Quote Awesome! Several of those optics are on my Short List. Looking forward to the reviews prior to making a purchase decision. |
|
|
Originally Posted By BigJimFish: Here is a teaser pic from day one of testing. Since that time all but one set of tests has been completed. I am hoping that the first review will be done in two weeks with one review to be posted each week until they are all done. http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo73/BigJimFish/teaser_zps6520ad6d.jpg View Quote |
|
|
Originally Posted By jayjay1:Why have all this scopes, which could (and were) used for service or duty DMR, such small front lences with 20-24mm? View Quote I don't entirely understand why, but it's due to inherent design limitations of high-erector ratio scopes with a true 1x bottom magnification. With a 1x scope, it apparently gets very difficult to (usefully) increase the objective size much beyond 24mm. One optics engineer suggested that you could probably design a good 1-8x50 scope, but it'd likely end up something like 20 inches long and weigh 4 pounds, and its performance advantage over a current top of the line small-objective scope like the March 1-10x26 (which is 10.5" long, 20 oz) might not be that dramatic. |
|
|
If we may take requests, can you do the optisan prestige first please? There are only 1-2 detailed reviews on this that I can find online.
|
|
|
First, thanks for all the research and time! I do have one request though. When you take 1X pictures, could you by chance take them so that we can see the object outside of, and through the scope? Something like a fence post from 10 yards or so would be perfect to illustrate true low end magnification and edge distortion.
Great work! |
|
My apocalyptic rage virus story - http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_20/661026_Humanity_s_Will.html
|
Looking forward to the reviews.
|
|
"Politicians are like diapers; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.”
― Mark Twain |
Is there a link to a google doc or excel version of the chart? Something similar would work as I just can't copy/ paste the text. I'd like to get this into excel so I can use the sort and filter features to make comparing a handful of choices easier.
Thanks in advance!! |
|
"...... the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
^ Why is that so effing hard for some people to understand.... |
If we may take requests, can you do the optisan prestige first please? There are only 1-2 detailed reviews on this that I can find online. View Quote I'm afraid this one will be a while yet. I expect it will probably be last. It is not really part of this set of reviews. I will elaborate in the future. I am doing the reviews in the order the products must be returned. I think the order will be: March, followed by the Bushnell, the Leupold CQBSS, U.S. Optics, Leupold MK6. At some point the Trijicon VCOG may show up. If this is the case it will be set alongside the MK 6 for evaluation. That is, if time allows for all of this. I have many projects in the air at the moment. Is there a link to a google doc or excel version of the chart? Something similar would work as I just can't copy/ paste the text. I'd like to get this into excel so I can use the sort and filter features to make comparing a handful of choices easier. View Quote PM me an e-mail address to send the file to. It is Excel. |
|
|
Great review on a scope I had a lot if interest in!
|
|
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast!"
|
That was a Great Review for this March 1-8x scope. Lots of information and very detailed analysis of features and function.
I'm surprised by how small & light the March is for a 1-8x scope. And I'm also very disappointed to read that the illumination is so poor. |
|
|
I believe the March has two different illumination modules available. One is high intensity the other is low intensity. Sounds like you had the low intensity.
|
|
|
Review of Bushnell Elite Tactical SMRS 1-8.5x 24 mm Illuminated Rifle Scope.
Les (Jim) Fischer BigJimFish Sept 21, 2013 Table of Contents: - Background - Unboxing and Physical Description - Reticle Description, Explanation, and Testing - Comparative Optical Evaluation - Illumination Evaluation - Speed Testing and Exit Pupil Testing - Mechanical Testing and Turret Discussion - Summary and Conclusion Background: Bushnell has a history that strikes me as more like that of a 21st century optics corporation than its 1948 founding would suggest. I say this because most of the recently founded optical companies I know of are importers of products made overseas. Bushnell is also one of these, but they started doing it back in 1948. It is notable that container shipping, a technology that now forms the backbone of international trade, had not yet been invented in 1948: Bushnell was ahead of its time. What it means to think about an optics company that is an importer and a brand, rather than a manufacturer, is that different product lines often come from different original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) and are therefore no more comparable with each other than products produced by entirely different makers, because that is, in fact, what they are. Of course, which OEM is used for which product or product line is not information made publicly available, so it can be difficult to make general statements of any kind. With that being said, I will proceed to make general statements about the Elite Tactical line. It has generally been well received. The features have been up to date with current market trends. Matching 10 mils per rev locking turrets, compelling reticles, zero stops, and other features are in demand; and Bushnell has delivered them on many products in this line. On top of that, the clarity and durability of scopes in this line have also proven to be good. If these optics come from the OEM that I think they do; this is not surprising. That Japanese OEM dominates the $1,000 - $2,000 price range and its products rarely rub anyone the wrong way. With that in mind, I went into this review expecting a well designed scope with no obvious optics problems. I was a little curious about the $2,150 price tag though. It is well above what I expect to see from either Bushnell or that particular OEM. Unboxing and Physical Description: The demo that I received from Bushnell was a bit sparse when it came to extras. I have to admit, I expect some caps, or at least a lens rag with a $2,000 optic. All that came in the Bushnell box was a thin stack of owner's papers. This despite that fact that that box was quite cavernous, even for the substantially sized SMRS 1-8.5.x. Bushnell SMRS 1-8.5.x with giant almost empty box The Bushnell SMRS 1-8.5x is a stocky, knobby affair. It has large, heavy adjustment knobs that still look big even on the 34mm tube. The result of this combination is that, at 25.9 oz, it is very close to the heaviest optic in the class. The only two heavier, the IOR Eliminator and Kruger DTS, are unusual optics with features that necessarily add weight. The Bushnell is just plain heavy and I don't think it had to be. It does not need a 34mm tube, as a 30 mm would provide more adjustment than anyone could need and the objective in the 34 mm is the same size as is common in 30 mm optics. I also can't help but think those adjustments could be shrunk down a bit. Smaller 10 mils per turn adjustments do exist. At the very least, these big honkers should include a zero stop. They are locking but do not have a zero stop. I believe that many of these design choices were made, not to enhance function, but to provide a muscular appearance. In the end, though, I don't think that this is one of the finer looking optics I have seen. I can identify some of the aesthetic reasons for this. The scope lacks a flare in the tube at the objective, as many other scopes have, to prevent mounting rings over top the objective. That always adds something. It also has a very extruded looking power ring that appears low end. I'm not sure these features add up to the overall impression though. It looks kind of plain and bulky to me - like the image Volvo paid so much to not succeed in ridding itself of. The mount used throughout this review is a prototype of Bobro's new 34mm Cantilevered Precision Optic mount. Bobro was good enough to supply me with one so that I would be able to mount all the 1-8x optics I had on hand for this review simultaneously. I took the opportunity to review the mount as well. Reticle Description, Close Quarters Performance, Explanation, and Ranging: Bushnell SMRS 1-8.5.x focused on a tree line at 100 yards Reticles aren't everything; but it can be easy to forget that - for good reason. They are pretty important, though. Having designed a few of these myself at this point, I understand the difficulty in balancing simplicity of use and up-close speed with accuracy, speed, and versatility for ranging, drop compensation, and drift compensation. It is also nice to have a small precise primary aiming point for doing load development and accuracy testing. Bushnell's BTR-2 places substantial focus on speed. At 1x it takes up very little of the field of view. This is generally good, although the large central circular feature is just a bit smaller or thinner than I would have chosen. It is almost there, but, as you will see, in close quarters testing most reviewers thought it a little on the inconspicuous side. The reticle primarily ranges using a vertical mil scale graduated in .5mil increments and labeled. Well enough, it is almost always better to range vertical objects than horizontal ones owing the orientation of most things to gravity. The increment size chosen for the scale and the labeling markings of the scale are well executed and also proved to be the correct size on the calibration target. The markings on the horizontal crosshairs are less easily deciphered. It turns out that the height of the hashes on the horizontal markings forms a stadia ranging section for ranging objects of 10" height between 100 and 800 meters. I expect this is meant for the 10" plates common in Three Gun, though human heads aren't too far off that size. It has been my experience that objects of this small size are very difficult to range with anywhere near the accuracy needed for that ranging to be useful. So, while I am generally a fan of stadia systems for their speed, I don't think this one will deliver enough accuracy to be useful. So far as I can tell, the markings on this horizontal crosshairs are not all at exactly 1mil increments. No mention is made of the horizontal distances in the manual. It mentions that these markings may be used for windage holds. However, they did not measure out to be each equal to a mil in my testing, so I have my doubts about the usefulness for this purpose. This is a disappointment, as it diminishes the value of the giant 10 mils per turn elevation turret. I expect that, for most shooters, windage will need to be dialed instead of held. All in all, I think it is a marginal reticle. I am happy to see that some thought went into the design instead of just throwing a mil-dot at the thing, but I believe it came up short in a lot of areas. Comparative Optical Evaluation: The Bushnell SMRS 1-8.5x's optical performance was, in many ways, exactly what I expected. That is to say, I expected no major optical problems such as heavy distortion or curvature of field, but I also didn't expect it to boast the clarity of many of its competitors. With regard to sharpness, it was not as sharp as the Leupold MK8 or MK6, the March, or the USO. However, the USO displayed distortion, curvature of field, and a small field of view such that the Bushnell was easily preferable. The coloration of the Bushnell was on the warm side, similar to that of the Leupolds. Given the price differences between the scopes in this lineup, I did not feel the optical performance of the Bushnell was either exceptional or lacking. It seemed about right. Bushnell SMRS 1-8.5.x and comparison optics focused on a tree line at 100 yards Illumination Evaluation: Bushnell appears to use convention reflected illumination in this optic. They have elected to light the central dot and semicircle but not any part of the scale; so you will not be ranging or holding based on these in low light. It is clear to me that they really gave it their all when it comes to cranking that technology as bright as they could get it. Despite that effort, while daytime visible, this illumination is not daytime bright. Users doing close quarters testing did not find it any faster to use the illumination than not to. While I have no doubt this illumination, especially coupled with the nice small semicircle, will speed things up in low light; it does not achieve a red dot feel. Bushnell SMRS 1-8.5.x and comparison optics at 1x and maximum illumination. Target at 25 yards. Speed Testing and Discussion of Contributing Factors: All of the scopes to be compared in the speed testing Over the course of the last couple of reviews, I have had the opportunity to evaluate, in cooperation with eight or nine different testers, some 14 different optics, with a 1x setting, engaging close quarters targets. For this I use an air-soft AR and pie pans: I'm not made of money. It's a lot of fun and you can go though thousands of rounds for the cost of fast food dinner. What I have found after doing all of this testing is that what counts for close quarters is not exactly what you would expect. Here is my summary of the major factors and what part they play: 1) Optical Design: Having a distortion free, flat field of view at 1x is, by far, the most important factor to speed. Pincushion distortion, barrel distortion, or curvature to field throws off your ability to merge the data coming in from your left and right eye into a single image. The result is slow and a little disorienting. This disorienting effect is not noticeable when you are focused on a stationary target, but as you move across the field of fire, having the objects viewed through the optic bend as the field of view moves across them is very hard to deal with. At 1x the Bushnell did pretty well with regards to flatness of field of view. It is not perfect, but it is not problematic either. 2) Reticle: The reticle is a little more subjective. Not every tester has always agreed. However, in general, an open field of view with a few thick objects in just the center is the desired combination. Crosshairs are generally disliked. Had the semicircle in the Bushnell been a little bit thicker, larger, or been brightly lit; it would have had an excellent reticle. As it stands, the testers frequently lost track of the circle amidst the background. I think the function was probably still preferable to big, thick, distracting crosshairs, but was in no way optimal. 3) Illumination: It may come as a surprise given optics makers' quest for daytime bright illumination, but it comes in a bit down the list. To be sure, having a daytime bright dot can eclipse reticle design in importance to speed if the reticle is thin and therefore not distracting, but it will not make up for a bulky distracting reticle. Reticle design and illumination can be seen as working together to determine speed, but, in my experience, the reticle is the bigger part of this pair. During the daytime testing, the Bushnell was run with and without illumination with basically no difference in results. It was visible, but the reticle wasn't bright; it just looked red in color. The illumination was certainly effective as the day wore into dusk, but was not effective in full sun. 4) Eyebox: It should come as no surprise that having more freedom of motion while still getting a picture is good for speed. However, what I have found is that, within reason, this factor plays less a part than you might think. It is true a tiny eyebox can make an optic slow, but most scopes have enough leeway that it is not a big factor. No tester found the eyebox of the Bushnell to be unduly restrictive. It was not tops in this area, but also did not display any problems. The Bushnell SMRS 1-8.5x generally placed on the lower half of the lineup near the middle in terms of speed. It scored better with more experienced shooters who had less problem losing the reticle (or more likely simply weren't focused on it) than it did with less experienced marksmen. Mechanical Testing and Turret Discussion: This optic is equipped with 10 mils per turn, .1 mil per click, locking, uncapped turrets. They are bigger and bulkier than those on most long range scopes. The locking feature is a simple pull up to unlock, pull down to lock system and the zero adjusts by removing the coin slotted fastener in the top. There is no zero stop. The clicks feel good and, given the distance between them, are easy to count. For the adjustment testing of Bushnell as well as the other scopes being reviewed this year, I made up a new target shown below. I spend a good deal of time shooting at my local 100-yard range with scopes that are adjusted in mils. It annoyed me that I could not find a target made on a mils at 100 yards grid. I therefore made one and furthermore, made it have six bulls so that I can shoot a box and power change test on the same target. The grid on the pictured target is .1 mil at 100 yards. I will make the PDF of this target available just as soon as I can figure out a way to get the CAD program to make a PDF of the correct size. (It seems to be able to print out the correct size, but the PDF is not right. I will have to use some printer plug in.) A box test checks for the accuracy in magnitude and independence in direction of the adjustments. To perform this test, the shooter aims at the same place when firing all shots, but moves the adjustments between groups such that a box is formed by the groups fired with the last group landing back atop the first. This box should be square and the corners (i.e. the groups) should be the correct distance from each other as dictated by the scale of the scope's adjustments. As performed on this target, all of the groups should have the same position relative to the exes. The Bushnell passed this test with no difficulty. In a power change test, the rifle is fired at two different targets with one being shot at maximum magnification and the other at minimum. The targets are then compared to make sure that the scope does not shift with regard to point of aim when the power is changed. Some shift will be expected with a second focal plane scope, but a front focal plane scope, such as this one, should exhibit no shift. The Bushnell exhibits no shift. Bushnell SMRS 1-8.5.x box and power change tests Summary and Conclusion: Had some different decisions been made in the marketing department with regard to size and weight, and had the reticle gone though just a bit more development, it is likely that I would find this scope a good choice at its price point. The underlying optical design is solid and the mechanicals check out. As is, I have a hard time getting past the unwarranted mass, uninspiring reticle, and perfunctory looks. Here is Your Pro and Con Breakdown: Pros: Clarity commensurate with price No optical aberrations of significant degree Good adjustment feel and perfect function Excellent warranty and Bushnell even allows customers to return a product they try out and don't like Cons: 24.9 oz is too heavy Illumination is not daytime bright Reticle is lackluster In the lower half of comparison optics for close quarters speed Perfunctory looks Bushnell SMRS 1-8.5.x Mounted in the new Bobro 34mm drop forward two lever mount (to be reviewed shortly) on a SCAR 16s |
|
|
Deleted..... |
|
IDPA - No excuses, No sight pictures, No gaming, No rehearsing. Shoot now or go to the back of the line!
|
Leupold Mark 6 1-6x20mm with TMR Reticle
This thread was quite useful for me in purchasing the right low power scope. Here is my small contribution. I tried out about 8 different models in person and ended up going with the Leupold Mark 6 1-6. It is not perfect either, but it was the closest compromise I could make out of all the $500-2000 models. I could not find any Leupold TMR reticle pictures, so here it is. So far I am happy with it. I went with TMR rather than CMR reticle, so I can use my handloads and also move the scope to other rifles without making the drop compensation mark not relevant. I like it at 1X as it is big enough to use it as a red dot (I think it is like 6-8 MOA dot), and when set at 6x, small enough to be precise. I set the light at 5 out of 7, and it bleeds a bit at that intensity. Setting at 3 would eliminate it. The day was overcast late in the afternoon/early evening, so I did not need a lot of red LED intensity. It is daylight bright. 1X - Leupold Mark 6 1-6 TMR
6X - Leupold Mark 6 1-6 TMR
|
|
|
I am looking for an ultra lightweight optic that meets this thread's criteria. I bought Ed Verdugo's GRSC 1-4x Combat Scope years ago and barely used it. All of my custom AR builds weigh in at less than six lbs with out optics. To see all my painstaking work get "ruined" by a heavy scope didn't sit well with me. I am getting close to sixty now and find a heavier gun really bothers me after a long day of run and gun. Give me one of my ultra lightweight set ups and I can much easier keep up with the younger gunners.
So far, my best compromise has been the Weaver 1-3X20mm scope with a throw lever from MGM Switchview. Oddly enough, the same lever is the one that fits the other scope I was looking at, the equally light but almost double the price Leupold VX-2 1-4x20mm scope.Both the Weaver and the Leupold weigh in a svelte 8.5 and 9 ounces respectively. Add in a decent mount and you are still approaching the one pound mark. I "cheat" though and drill out the mounts to lighten them too. So, the end package still retains a zero, but is very, very light Some of the illuminated 1-4x and 1-6x times are like boat anchors with a Larue or Boboro QD mount. I do miss not having an illuminated reticle I love my Weaver and will likely never sell it. It does great for daylight drills and competition. I do shoot in tactical evening classes where I need to revert to a red dot with a swing away 3x magnifier. I would rather have a dedicated ultra lightweight illuminated 1-4x. I would settle for a 1-3x illuminated. I dont think anyone makes one. Here is a link to a Weaver 1-3X owner who just like me would love to have his scope in a light illuminated version. http://www.opticstalk.com/custom-heavy-reticle-for-weaver-13x20-v3-scope_topic11306.html I dont need a 1-6x. I would be very happy with an ultra lightweight illuminated 1-3 or 4x tactical/combat scope. I don't know anyone that makes one. Do any members know? What is currently the lightest illuminated 1-4x out there? Someday, via technology, I will probably find what I want be be too old to enjoy it! I am hoping to find something that will fit the bill in the mean time. I could deal with a 10 ounce scope. Believe me, at my age, every ounce matters when you add it to my AR's. This is why I love my builds so much. One of them is a precision 18" fluted 416R SS barreled wonder that goes 5.4lbs with no optic or mag. These guns are such a pleasure to field. I just want to find an illuminated combat scope that I can be comfortable with weight wise. |
|
|
Originally Posted By bosundave:
I am looking for an ultra lightweight optic that meets this thread's criteria. I bought Ed Verdugo's GRSC 1-4x Combat Scope years ago and barely used it. All of my custom AR builds weigh in at less than six lbs with out optics. To see all my painstaking work get "ruined" by a heavy scope didn't sit well with me. I am getting close to sixty now and find a heavier gun really bothers me after a long day of run and gun. Give me one of my ultra lightweight set ups and I can much easier keep up with the younger gunners. So far, my best compromise has been the Weaver 1-3X20mm scope with a throw lever from MGM Switchview. Oddly enough, the same lever is the one that fits the other scope I was looking at, the equally light but almost double the price Leupold VX-2 1-4x20mm scope.Both the Weaver and the Leupold weigh in a svelte 8.5 and 9 ounces respectively. Add in a decent mount and you are still approaching the one pound mark. I "cheat" though and drill out the mounts to lighten them too. So, the end package still retains a zero, but is very, very light Some of the illuminated 1-4x and 1-6x times are like boat anchors with a Larue or Boboro QD mount. I do miss not having an illuminated reticle I love my Weaver and will likely never sell it. It does great for daylight drills and competition. I do shoot in tactical evening classes where I need to revert to a red dot with a swing away 3x magnifier. I would rather have a dedicated ultra lightweight illuminated 1-4x. I would settle for a 1-3x illuminated. I dont think anyone makes one. Here is a link to a Weaver 1-3X owner who just like me would love to have his scope in a light illuminated version. http://www.opticstalk.com/custom-heavy-reticle-for-weaver-13x20-v3-scope_topic11306.html I dont need a 1-6x. I would be very happy with an ultra lightweight illuminated 1-3 or 4x tactical/combat scope. I don't know anyone that makes one. Do any members know? What is currently the lightest illuminated 1-4x out there? Someday, via technology, I will probably find what I want be be too old to enjoy it! I am hoping to find something that will fit the bill in the mean time. I could deal with a 10 ounce scope. Believe me, at my age, every ounce matters when you add it to my AR's. This is why I love my builds so much. One of them is a precision 18" fluted 416R SS barreled wonder that goes 5.4lbs with no optic or mag. These guns are such a pleasure to field. I just want to find an illuminated combat scope that I can be comfortable with weight wise. View Quote If you do not need QD, you might consider rings as they should be lighter. Also, the Alamo Four Star mounts seem lighter as well. Night Force makes the ultralight unimount that I would recommend as one of the lightest you'll find. Bobro mounts are built like tanks but are heavy, and the LaRue mounts are good but not the lightest. A decent set of rings will hold the optic in place and reduce weight. I believe that US Optics has a "uni" ring or single ring designed to mount an optic. It may weigh less than a set of rings but I'm not sure. Good luck, I appreciate a nice light build. |
|
|
Great reviews so far BigJimFish.
Really looking forward to the rest. |
|
"Politicians are like diapers; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.”
― Mark Twain |
Updates:
At this point I have only the Leupold Mark 6 1-6x and U.S. Optics SR-8C left to go in this current batch. At one time I was planning to add the Trijicon VCOG to the group (particularly to put it beside the Mark 6) but time has ticked by without those being ready to go and I think, at this point in the year, it will just have to wait for next year. Little time is left in this shooting season and I still have a lot of other things on my plate. I'll talk to them and some other folks at SHOT about next years stuff. Speaking of SHOT show 2014, this time around I'm not just getting my normal press pass but also a special morning at the range pass for Monday. Expect some photos from the range and possibly a little video. I'm really a writer at heart and not a videographer so don't expect the sort of professional quality stuff in that department that you get from the writing. I hear that range day is crowded, chaotic, and hard to accomplish much at so who knows what that's going to look like. As for next years reviews. I expect that you can count on the VCOG right off the bat. I also expect that there will be at least one set of laser rangefinding binoculars. Beyond that, expect more long range optics and less close quarters stuff. Expect a broader focus to include other shooting related product including rifles. It is at least somewhat likely that I will review Kelbly's tactical offerings. I have come to write for a number of sights in addition to AR15.com including SnipersHide and this larger number of venues has allowed for a broader focus. |
|
|
Really looking forward to the mk6 review! Pretty sure that is the optic I want, but would like to see what you think before I pull out the credit card. Great write ups!
|
|
|
|
Do you remember what the BDC reticle is called? It was not available at the time they sent the review scope out to me and has not yet been added to the website but I would like to mention it in my review which will be posted next week.
|
|
|
Originally Posted By 01Z06:
Its my reticle that i designed. Its called R W F. Its the best of both types of reticles It has a mil reticle so you can dial if you choose to. And also BDC out to 800 yds with wind hold over for 2.5,5 & 10mph When the reticle is at 1 power the reticle almost disappears leaving the bright red dot like an aimpoint scope without any lines to obscure your sight for fast shooting. When you crank up to 8x the reticle shows up nice and clear for those long shots I have a few scopes left for sale with my reticle. I had to buy 10 scopes to get my reticle built. If you know anyone interested its $2300 shipped and they are brand new in box. Thanks Ron Ron Call me, I may be interested in buying one of your scopes. Thanks Ed Verdugo 951 845 9838 <a href="http://s38.photobucket.com/user/RonFilho/media/sr2_zpscc54ac19.jpeg.html" target="_blank">http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e108/RonFilho/sr2_zpscc54ac19.jpeg</a> <a href="http://s38.photobucket.com/user/RonFilho/media/sr6copy_zps25e965ac.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e108/RonFilho/sr6copy_zps25e965ac.jpg</a> View Quote |
|
www.grscinc.com
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.