Another load added to the line-up of the testing schedule for this summer.

very cool. thanks for taking the time to throw this together

Originally Posted By Molon: Another load added to the line-up of the testing schedule for this summer. www.box.net/shared/static/0ovqzc55pp.jpg

Hopefully sooner than later.  Love your thread, please keep it up.

Scott

Originally Posted By Molon: Hornady's 75 Grain Practice Ammunition Hornady’s 75 grain practice ammunition uses a Berdan primed, steel case instead of a brass case to reduce the cost of the loaded cartridge.  The round uses Hornady’s 75 grain BTHP bullet with a cannelure (referred to as the T1C here on AR15.com.)  The round is charged with ball powder and has a muzzle velocity similar to Hornady’s 75 grain TAP FPD.  Fired from my 20” Colt government profile barrel with a NATO chamber, a 10-shot string had an average muzzle velocity of 2,646 fps with a standard deviation of 9 fps. www.box.net/shared/static/xsbzu8o3b2.jpg www.box.net/shared/static/pux1fjacjp.jpg The steel case employs the heaviest amount of bullet-pull I have ever encountered in a 223 Remington case.  I was unable to remove a bullet from the case using Dillon’s kinetic bullet puller, so I chucked a Lee collet bullet-puller into my reloading press and attempted to pull the bullet.  I still couldn’t get the bullet out of the case!  At that point, I had to resort to more primitive means to get the bullet out of the case. www.box.net/shared/static/5qnfhakn5j.jpg I tested the accuracy of the 75 grain practice round following my usual procedures.  Using a free-floated 20” Colt HBAR and shooting from a bench-rest from 100 yards, I obtained three 10-shot groups and over-layed them on each other using RSI Shooting Lab.  The 30-round composite group had a mean radius of 0.47”.  While not as accurate as Hornady’s 75 grain TAP FPD, accuracy was on par with the 75 grain 5.56 TAP load.   www.box.net/shared/static/us8pqbd4tl.jpg

AWESOME WORK

I wish WOLF used there steel case with there 75gr

I know PP did the loadings

Great information!  Thanks for the work.

Chronograph Data for Prvi Partizan 75 grain Match Ammunition





Chronograph data was obtained using an Oehler 35-P with "proof screen" technology.  All velocities listed are muzzle velocities as calculated from instrumental velocities using Oehler's Ballistic Explorer.  All strings of fire consisted of 10 shots each.

Three different barrel lengths were used in testing:  20", 16" and 14.5".  All barrels were of Colt manufacture, with chrome lining, NATO chambers and 1:7" twists.






100 yard accuracy evaluation coming soon.



atmospheric conditions:

Average temperature- 83 degrees F
Humidity - 64%
Barometric pressure – 30.04
Elevation- 960 feet above sea level

Originally Posted By cowboy7242001: Its a little slower then I thought it would be. Its still a decently priced training alternative I suppose.

Without knowing the fragmentation threshold, it is hard to tell if the velocity is low or OK.  Generally the Hornady 75 Gr. BTHP fragments at 2200-2300 fps, but no one knows about this stuff.

At least two of my rifles like this stuff pretty well, one is a 20" 1:8 twist and the other is a 16", 1:9 twist.  I look forward to seeing some fragmentation data on this load.  

Thanks for collecting and distributing this data.

Originally Posted By paulosantos: Originally Posted By cowboy7242001: Its a little slower then I thought it would be. Its still a decently priced training alternative I suppose. Without knowing the fragmentation threshold, it is hard to tell if the velocity is low or OK.  Generally the Hornady 75 Gr. BTHP fragments at 2200-2300 fps, but no one knows about this stuff.

AGREED

CAN someone FILL UP a 5gallon bucket of water and shoot it at 50 yards to see if it will frag

Ive done this with m193 back 20years ago

THERE WOULD BE LITTLE SPLINTERS LEFT BEHIND

its better than lineing up milk jugs

Originally Posted By FMJ: CAN someone FILL UP a 5gallon bucket of water and shoot it at 50 yards to see if it will frag

ZeroedIn did something similar here.

I just noticed that the velocities listed on the box for 223 TAP is 2790 fps while the velocity listed on the box for 5.56 BTHP/WC is 2665 fps ?!?!

What's up with this ? Since the 5.56 is faster, I assume the velocity quoted for the 223 is from a 20" barrel while the velocity for the 5.56 is from a 14.5" barrel ? Does anyone know if this is correct ?

You'de think Hornady would print velocities on the box from the same length barrel.

The 5.56mm tap velocity of 2665fps is from a 14.5" barrel.   The .223 version at 2790 would likely be from a 24" barrel.

COMING SOON!

100 yard accuracy evaluation of:

•  Black Hills red box 75 grain MHP

•  Black Hills blue box 75 grain MHP

•  Prvi Partizan 75 grain match  (This one might surprise you!)

Originally Posted By Molon: COMING SOON! 100 yard accuracy evaluation of: •  Black Hills red box 75 grain MHP •  Black Hills blue box 75 grain MHP •  Prvi Partizan 75 grain match  (This one might surprise you!)

Ya big tease!

Originally Posted By bnz42: Originally Posted By Molon: COMING SOON! 100 yard accuracy evaluation of: •  Black Hills red box 75 grain MHP •  Black Hills blue box 75 grain MHP •  Prvi Partizan 75 grain match  (This one might surprise you!) Ya big tease!

100 yard Accuracy Evaluation of Black Hills 75 grain MHP:  red box versus blue box.





As previously discussed in this thread, the primary difference between Black Hills' red box and blue box ammunition lies with the brass case.  Red box ammunition uses virgin brass, while blue box ammunition uses once fired brass that has been resized.  

Both the red box and blue box 75 grain Match hollow point loads use the Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullet with a cannelure and both have crimped case necks.  Both loads are charged with “ball” powder and with the two lots of this ammunition that I chronographed the blue box load ran an average of 50 fps faster than the red box.

Accuracy testing of both loads was done from a bench-rest at 100 yards.  The test-vehicle was an AR-15 with a 24” stainless-steel Kreiger VarMatch barrel, with a 1:7.7” twist, installed on a LaRue Tactical Stealth upper receiver.  A Leupold Competition Series Scope was used for sighting.  No malfunctions of any kind were experienced during testing.









Prior to testing the Black Hills ammunition, I obtained three 10-shot groups of a control load consisting of hand-loaded Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings (at a distance of 100 yards of course.)  Those three groups had extreme spreads of:

0.547”
0.57”
0.69”

for an average extreme spread of 0.602”.

The three 10-shot groups were overlayed on each using RSI Shooting Lab to obtain a 30-shot composite group that had a mean radius of 0.19”.



Following the same procedures used with the control load, three 10-shot groups of the Black Hills red box 75 grain MHP fired from 100 yards were obtained.  Their extreme spreads measured:

0.96”
1.00”
1.04”

for an average extreme spread of 1.00”.

As with the control load, the three 10-shot groups from the red box ammunition were overlayed on each other to obtain a 30-shot composite group with a mean radius of 0.32”.

In the same manner as above, three 10-shot groups of the blue box 75 grain MHP were obtained from 100 yards with extreme spreads of:

1.11”
1.16”
1.16”

for an average extreme spread of 1.14”.

Those three 10-shot groups overlayed on each other had a mean radius of 0.37”.   Here are the 30-shot composite groups side-by-side for comparison.








Lastly, for the Internet Commandos in our audience, I fired a 3-shot group of the red box 75 grain MHP from 100 yards.  That group measured 0.276”.

100 Yard Accuracy Evaluation of Prvi Partizan 75 grain Match Ammunition.





The Prvi Partizan 75 grain match ammunition uses an open-tip-match bullet very similar in configuration to Hornady’s 75 grain BTHP bullet used in Hornady’s TAP line of ammunition and in Black Hills’ 75 grain MHP line of ammunition.  The Prvi Partizan (PPU) bullet has a nominal length that runs approximately 0.010” – 0.015” shorter than the Hornady bullet.  The PPU 75 grain bullet does not have a cannelure, but the case mouth on this load does have a slight collet crimp on it which puts a slight crease in the bullet.















The PPU 75 grain match load uses Boxer primed brass cases and is charged with “ball” powder.  Neither the primer nor the case mouth have sealant and the primer is not crimped.  Previous chronographing of this load through multiple barrel lengths shows it to run an average of 127 fps slower than the Black Hills 75 grain MHP load.

















I have read some statements recently that claim the PPU 75 grain bullet was designed to shoot well through 1:9” twist barrels, yet none of those making these statements have provided any scientific evidence to support this claim.  According to the Greenhill formula, the optimal twist for the PPU 75 grain bullet is 1:7.6”.  

From a 1:9” twist barrel, the PPU 75 grain match bullet has a gyroscopic stability factor (GSF) of less than 1.25 for all velocities.  It is generally accepted that a rifle bullet should have a GSF of 1.5 to 2, with 1.25 being the least acceptable GSF.  




Gyroscopc stability factor from a 1:9" twist barrel.






Gyroscopic stability factor from a 1:7.7" twist barrel.






The test-vehicle for this evaluation was an AR-15 with a 24” stainless-steel Kreiger VarMatch barrel, with a 1:7.7” twist, installed on a LaRue Tactical Stealth upper receiver. A Leupold Competition Series Scope was used for sighting. No malfunctions of any kind were experienced during testing.









Following my usual protocol for accuracy evaluation, shooting was done from a bench-rest at 100 yards.  Three 10-shot groups were obtained using the PPU 75 grain match load.  Those three groups had extreme spreads that measured:

0.66”
0.92”
1.14”

for an average extreme spread of 0.91”.



The best 10-shot group from 100 yards.






The three groups from above were overlayd on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to obtain a 30-shot composite group.  The mean radius of this composite group was 0.29”.  For comparison, this composite group is pictured below next to a composite group of the Black Hills 75 grain red box MHP load as well as a composite group of one of my handloads.









Here is a repost of some of the chronograph data for the Prvi Partizan 75 grain Match load.

So was the Prvi's performance better or worse than you expected?

If you figure in the the cost difference between the Prvi and other available 75 grain offerings, does your answer to the first question change?

As always, very excellent presentation and information, thank you,
Scott

First of all, that control group is awesome. You and your gun can shoot. That's also impressive that the 36c/rd Prvi can hold its own against the Black Hills 43/c round stuff. The theoretical stability (or lack thereof) of Prvi 75 gr through a 1:9 barrel is rather dismaying.

I spent the afternoon shooting a few different loads at 50 and 100 yds through my Colt 20" 1:9, among them Black Hills 75gr blue box and Prvi 75 gr match. I shot 5 or 6 shot groups (occasionally 10 shots) and I never got a group out of the Prvi that approached the Black Hills load. The Prvi was always much more horizontally strung than the Black Hills. In addition, the POI between the two loads was up to 6 MOA different horizontally. I couldn't figure it out. Black Hills up and left, Prvi 1" down and way right. Could this possibly be real?

Also, given that the velocities are so different between BH and Prvi, I was surprised to find they had the same POI at 50 yards with irons. I guess 100 fps or so doesn't make all that much difference at 50 yds.

Thanks for posting this, as I've heavily invested in both the prvi and black hills 75 gr loads. I'm always looking for more data regarding their potential.

What I get out of it all is.................

HANDLOAD for best "MATCH" accuracy!

Molon, you know your posts and tests are like CRACK, I need not add a "Good Job!" comment...

Rmpl

Can we see some lighter loads someday? 55 grain or maybe 40 grain just for me?

Originally Posted By Scotter260: So was the Prvi's performance better or worse than you expected? Being the ammo-snob that I am, the PPU 75 grain Match ammunition far exceeded my  expectations of accuracy.  It's too bad they are loading it to a slower velocity than most of the other 75 grain loads on the market. If you figure in the the cost difference between the Prvi and other available 75 grain offerings, does your answer to the first question change? Since I use handloads for 99% of the shooting that I do, this isn't really an issue one way or the other for me.  However, if you don't handload, it is definitely something to take into consideration. As always, very excellent presentation and information, thank you, Scott Thanks!

Originally Posted By globe512: That's also impressive that the 36c/rd Prvi can hold its own (in accuracy) against the Black Hills 43/c round stuff.

Exactly!

great great work. thank you so much.

Originally Posted By Leftover_Salmon: Can we see some lighter loads someday? 55 grain or maybe 40 grain just for me?

According to the works of Dr G.K. Roberts and others, the 233/5.56 bullets with the most effective terminal ballistics, as demonstrated in gel-testing, are the 75-77 grain OTM bullets.  At the top of that list is the Hornady 75 grain BTHP (which is currently being loaded by multiple companies) and the Nosler 77 grain OTM (which as far as I know, is not currently being commercially loaded by any company.)  This is the reason that the primary focus of this thread has been on the ammunition loaded with the heavy OTM bullets.

There is a scattering of 52-55 grain bullets evaluated in this thread.

Absolutely great information, and I will definitely be ordering another 1K of the PP 75 gr to keep on hand.  Most of my shooting lately has been done through a 1/7 10.5", a 1/7 11.5" with can, and a 1/8 18" SPR, almost all with either the PP or BH BB 75 gr.

I'll be saving the 1K of BH BB 68 gr for use in my 1/9 guns.

MOLON  OUTSTANDING AS ALWAYS !!


I have to ask , Do you have FUN at the Range

Seems like Lots of Work

Molon,
Great info as always. Thanks for all your work. Don't know about the GSF thing, but my scoped RRA Entry Tac likes this round. I think it's a great buy for us non-rollers. I'm going to try it again when it gets abit cooler. 100 yds.
Wrong forum guys. Sorry.

Originally Posted By FMJ: MOLON  OUTSTANDING AS ALWAYS !! I have to ask , Do you have FUN at the Range Seems like Lots of Work

Always!

When I shoot the 75gr Prvi with my 1 in 8 RRA I get tight little groups where the holes are at least nudgeing eachother but then I can always count a flier or two.
I think most of you have seen pics of my Prvi groups.

BZ, molon!

Catalog of Hornady 75 Grain Loads

Here is a little “visual catalog” of the 5 different loads that Hornady produces using a 75 grain bullet.  I thought it might help clear up some of the confusion pertaining to the various loads offered by Hornady.







75 grain BTHP MATCH:  catalog #8026
223 Remington




This load uses the 75 grain BTHP “T1” bullet without a cannelure.  (The is the same bullet that is available as a reloading component.)  The case neck does have a very slight taper crimp.  The powder used is a short cut extruded type.  The lots of this load that I have chronographed have had velocities similar to or slightly higher than the velocities of the 75 grain TAP FPD load (depending on the barrel.)




75 grain BTHP TAP Precision:  catalog #80265
223 Remington

The original version of this load was referred to as "TAP Precision" while the more recent version has dropped the "Precision" nomenclature.  Both versions come in a red box, but the newer version uses the same style of label on the box that the 5.56 TAP ammunition uses, adding to the confusion.

original  

This load is the forerunner to the TAP FPD load.  This load uses the T1 bullet with a cannelure and has a firm taper crimp on the case neck.  This load also uses extruded powder and has a velocity similar to 75 grain TAP FPD.  The primers are not crimped and the cases are plain brass.  


original





current






75 grain TAP FPD (For Personal Defense):  catalog #80268
223 Remington



I think this is the load that started a lot of the confusion about the various 75 grain loads offered by Hornday.  First off, the ammo comes in a black box.  The box is still labeled as “TAP”, but it also has the “For Personal Defense” title on it.  Besides the black box, this round also has the “black nickel” coated cases giving the round its distinctive appearance.  

Other than the black box and black case the round is basically the same as the 75 grain BTHP TAP Precision load.  It uses the T1 bullet with a cannelure and crimped case neck as well as the extruded powder.  It does not have crimped primers.  The muzzle velocity of this load runs around 2640 fps from a 20” chrome lined, NATO chambered Colt barrel.





TAP 5.56 X 45
75 grain BTHP/WC T2:  catalog #8126N



This is the NATO pressure load.  It comes in a red TAP box, but the side panel is clearly labeled 5.56 X 45.  The panel has a disclaimer that reads “NOT FOR USE IN 223 CHAMBERS.”  I think this load is confused with the 75 grain BTHP TAP Precision load because they both come packaged in the red TAP box.

One of the biggest features of this round besides being loaded to NATO pressures is the new T2 bullet.  The ogive of the T2 bullet is shorter than the T1 bullet and the T2 bullet has a longer bearing surface than the T1 bullet.  The T2 bullets also have incredibly uniform meplats giving the loaded round a more uniform overall length.  It is reported that the shape of the bullet was designed so as to improve feeding in the M4 platform.









     

The T2 bullet has a cannelure and the case neck has a firm taper crimp.  The primers for this load are  crimped in place and the primer itself is reported to be a “mil-spec” primer.  The more recent lots of this load have sealed primers.  Contrary to advertisements, none of the lots of this load that I have seen have a sealed case mouth.  This load uses ball powder and has a muzzle velocity of around 2820 fps from a 20” chrome lined, NATO chambered barrel.























I’d like to dispel the rumor that the TAP 5.56 X 45 load uses a large rifle primer.  This is completely false and can be proved with the application of a tiny bit of science.  The nominal diameter for small rifle primers is 0.175 inches.*  De-priming a fired TAP 5.56 X 45 case and measuring the spent primer with digital calipers shows the primer has a diameter of 0.174”.









75 grain Practice:  catalog #9760
223 Remington








This load comes in a white, 50 round box.  The distinctive feature about this round is the Berdan primed steel case that it uses.  This load uses the T1 bullet with a cannelure and taper crimp.  The load is charged with ball powder and has velocities similar to the 75 grain TAP FPD load.










*The ABC’s of Reloading, page 45.

Damn is all I can say.  Someone needs to .pfd this stuff so I can save it.  I believe someone did it earlier in the thread but this thread just keeps getting better.

Coming Soon: Hornady 75 grain Match versus 75 grain TAP

INcredible thread. It answered all questions concerning my pending AR accuaracy build.



I may just copy your weapon.

Sooo Molon, how about some research on .308/7.62 TAP vs. TAP FPD? 168, AMAX bullets perhaps?

and thank you very much for all this stuff on the .233/5.56 TAP/FPD
answered everything i needed to know, and learned some stuff i didnt even know to ask. thanks, joe

Originally Posted By Joe-A275: Sooo Molon, how about some research on .308/7.62 TAP vs. TAP FPD? 168, AMAX bullets perhaps?

Won't be doing anything with the .308, but I am in the process of testing Hornady 6.8mm SPC loads.

Mods - Any chance we could get a sticky on this?

^

^

Page one pics are apparently defunct.

This thread/post should've been tacked. (and the pics in it as well...)

FlDiveCop71

ETA: Pics are working once again. (Still hoping for a .PDF version though...)

Comcast is supposedly "updating" the photo-hosting area of their website.  I hope they don't loose my pictures in the process.

Originally Posted By Molon: Comcast is supposedly updating the photo-hosting area of their website.  I hope they don't loose my pictures in the process.

You seriously should do this all up in a PDF. (if you haven't already. My apologies if I somehow missed it.)

Thanks for all the hard work. Awesome post you have here.

FlDiveCop71

Where can you find the targets Molon uses in his tests? I'm referring to the black and blue square with a ring above it and a measuring scale. Is there a printable .pdf or are they available for purchase?

Anybody Have this thread in a .PDF format?? If it's available, I somehow missed it...

FlDiveCop71

Originally Posted By FlDiveCop71: Anybody Have this thread in a .PDF format?? If it's available, I somehow missed it... FlDiveCop71

Check on page 15 of this thread.  There are a couple of condensed versions of the first half of this thread that I posted for downloading on that page.

Comcast has really screwed-up my hosted images for this thread.  I'm having to dig up all the images from my hard-drive, re-host them at a different site and then repost them in each individual post.  It's gonna take a little time before they are all back up again.

Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By FlDiveCop71: Anybody Have this thread in a .PDF format?? If it's available, I somehow missed it... FlDiveCop71 Check on page 15 of this thread.  There are a couple of condensed versions of the first half of this thread that I posted for downloading on that page. Comcast has really screwed-up my hosted images for this thread.  I'm having to dig up all the images from my hard-drive, re-host them at a different site and then repost them in each individual post.  It's gonna take a little time before they are all back up again.

Thanks - That's exactly what I was Looking for. By the way...

Do you know if Hornady still makes the 5.56 ammo on the Frontier Line? It seems that All their cartridges now say Hornady on them instead of the Frontier Logo.

Also - Does anybody know how to decipher their Lot Numbering system? I'm not sure where the year code lies...

Thanks ahead for any info.
FlDivCop71

Originally Posted By FlDiveCop71: Do you know if Hornady still makes the 5.56 ammo on the Frontier Line? It seems that All their cartridges now say Hornady on them instead of the Frontier Logo. Also - Does anybody know how to decipher their Lot Numbering system? I'm not sure where the year code lies... Thanks ahead for any info. FlDivCop71

Based on 3 years of old lots of ammo, the 2nd and 3rd digits are the year:

3070306

The 5.56 cases have had Hornady headstamps since 2006. There are still a few loads with Frontier headstamps, 25-06 off the top of my head.

Originally Posted By Thunderbolt882: Based on 3 years of old lots of ammo, the 2nd and 3rd digits are the year: 3070306 The 5.56 cases have had Hornady headstamps since 2006. There are still a few loads with Frontier headstamps, 25-06 off the top of my head.

Thanks for the answers. Very thorough, much appreciated.

FlDiveCop71