Has anyone tested to see if the POI for 75gr 5.56 TAP with the T2 bullet is similar to the 75gr .223 Black hills round?  I'm just wondering if the Black Hills blue box would be a suitable training round given that it is cheaper than the TAP and given that the TAP practice rounds are AWOL.

Thought I would bump this back up to see if anyone had an answer.

Individual barrels will vary but mine was within 2 MOA in POI and was pure vertical displacement.  This was an 11.5" barrel at 100 yards for POI shift testing of Black Hills Blue Box 75 grain ammo and Hornady 5.56 (T2) TAP 75 grain ammo.  Also Federal 62 grain LE223T3 was 1 MOA left of the 75 grain BH BB 75.  This was 9 consecutive shots on 3 different targets specifically to test for POI shift.  Somehow my barrel went to the shitter shortly after this and started shooting 6 MOA groups and is being replaced.

I will repeat the test when I get my new barrel in.

Thanks!  Just what I was looking for.

Would someone who has the ability, drop all these inconsequential posts, and take the important stuff and make a pfd document out of all this valuable information?  

For Christsakes....do it for the Children!

Hornady 75 grain 223 TAP

Hornady’s 75 grain BTHP Match ammunition (part #8026) is loaded with the same 75 grain boat-tail hollow point bullet that is available from Hornady as a reloading component (part #2279).  The case mouth of the Match load has a slight taper crimp on it which puts a small crease in the bullet itself.  The Hornady 75 grain 223 TAP load (part #80265) uses the same 75 grain BTHP bullet as the Match load with the addition of a cannelure.  Unfortunately, the cannelured version of this bullet is not available (to the general public) as a reloading component.


Previous lots of both the Match and 223 TAP load have been charged with a short-cut, charcoal colored extruded powder, while the most recent lots that I have purchased (including the ones used in this test session) are charged with a greenish/yellowish colored short cut, extruded powder resembling those powders found in the Hodgdon lineup of powders.  Both loads use traditional brass cases and the caseheads from both loads are head-stamped “Hornady 223-REM” and neither load appears to have sealed nor crimped primers.  The case mouth of the 223 TAP load is crimped into the cannelure of the bullet.


previous powder





recent powder





Chronograph testing was done using an Oehler 35-P chronograph with "proof-screen" technology.  All strings of fire consisted of 10-shots each.  All velocities listed below are muzzle velocities, as calculated from the instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program.


Accuracy testing was performed using my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15.  Shooting was done from a bench-rest at 100 yards.  All groups were 10-shot groups.  Prior to testing the Hornady ammunition, I fired a 10-shot control group using handloaded 55 grain Sierra BlitzKings. That group had an extreme spread of 0.63”.

Starting with the Hornady 75 grain 223 TAP load, I fired five, 10-shot groups from 100 yards and used the best three groups for analysis.  Those three groups had extreme spreads that measured:





1.17”


0.87”


1.05”





for a 10-shot group grand average of 1.03”.  The three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group that had a composite mean radius of 0.32”.
best 10-shot group of 75 grain 223 TAP

As usual, great info and presentation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: You need to market your reloads!

Scott

GREAT JOB AS ALWAYS

Jesus H. Christ!   Do you have a machine rest for an arm?  Of course the counter guy at the gunshop the other day told me he could hold 1/10 MOA at 1000yds so keep working on it!    


This thread is amazing.  Thanks Molon for all the valuable info.  

Nice job.  That powder looks like H4895.

Originally Posted By paulosantos: Nice job.  That powder looks like H4895.

I was just thinking the same thing.

So what you are telling me is the several hundred rounds of Hornady 75 grain I've got won't perform well in my Colt 16" 1in9?  Am I better going with the 60 grain TAP, polymer tipped spitzer flat base?  I can still get those for 12 bucks a box.

Originally Posted By DavidCBond: So what you are telling me is the several hundred rounds of Hornady 75 grain I've got won't perform well in my Colt 16" 1in9?  Am I better going with the 60 grain TAP, polymer tipped spitzer flat base?  I can still get those for 12 bucks a box.

Each barrel is different.  Try a box of the 75 Gr. at 100 yards and see if it will stabilize and if it is accurate enough for you.  If your barrel doesn't like it, try the 60 and 55 Gr. TAP.  Just keep in mind that the 55 and 60 Gr. TAP does not penetrate all that much, but it is still great against soft targets.

Originally Posted By paulosantos: Originally Posted By DavidCBond: So what you are telling me is the several hundred rounds of Hornady 75 grain I've got won't perform well in my Colt 16" 1in9?  Am I better going with the 60 grain TAP, polymer tipped spitzer flat base?  I can still get those for 12 bucks a box. Each barrel is different.  Try a box of the 75 Gr. at 100 yards and see if it will stabilize and if it is accurate enough for you.  If your barrel doesn't like it, try the 60 and 55 Gr. TAP.  Just keep in mind that the 55 and 60 Gr. TAP does not penetrate all that much, but it is still great against soft targets.

What about the 62gr Hornady TAP Barrier round?  My distributor carries that two...

Originally Posted By DavidCBond: Originally Posted By paulosantos: Originally Posted By DavidCBond: So what you are telling me is the several hundred rounds of Hornady 75 grain I've got won't perform well in my Colt 16" 1in9?  Am I better going with the 60 grain TAP, polymer tipped spitzer flat base?  I can still get those for 12 bucks a box. Each barrel is different.  Try a box of the 75 Gr. at 100 yards and see if it will stabilize and if it is accurate enough for you.  If your barrel doesn't like it, try the 60 and 55 Gr. TAP.  Just keep in mind that the 55 and 60 Gr. TAP does not penetrate all that much, but it is still great against soft targets. What about the 62gr Hornady TAP Barrier round?  My distributor carries that two...

I have been using the TAP 62 gr. Barrier round as a duty load for a while now.  It seems to be very accurate out of both my AR's.  One is a Colt AR6721 and an LMT MRP.

Here's a compilation of the 100 yard accuracy testing results of all the factory loaded ammunition tested for this thread that uses a Hornady 75 grain BTHP bullet.  

I see red x's.

Beautiful job. Great presentation.

excellent

Whopee, I have 3,000 rounds of the least accurate load.

What, by way of comparison, is the mean radius of M855?

Originally Posted By brasidas: Whopee, I have 3,000 rounds of the least accurate load. What, by way of comparison, is the mean radius of M855?

I've mentioned this before but I think it's worth repeating.  Keep in mind that while the HSM loads might not be as accurate as the Hornady or Black Hills loads, they are still more accurate than the best M193 or M855 out there.  (The comparison below uses M193, but the results would be very similar with M855.)

Hornady 6.8mm SPC 110 grain TAP versus 110 grain V-MAX





The ballistic gelatin testing done by Dr. G.K. Roberts has shown that the Hornady 75 grain OTM bullets have the best terminal performance of any commercially available loaded ammunition for the 223/5.56mm cartridge.  Additional testing done with the 6.8mm SPC cartridge by Dr Roberts has shown that the 6.8mm SPC “offers a substantial increase in terminal performance for AR15 carbines.”  With this in mind, I thought it would be interesting to take a look at the 6.8mm SPC.











223 TAP gel shot

courtesy of Dr GK Roberts




6.8mm SPC gel shots
110 TAP

courtesy of Dr GK Roberts


courtesy of Dr GK Roberts



As this thread has been primarily devoted to the testing and evaluation of Hornady’s 75 grain TAP loads, I thought an evaluation of Hornady’s 110 grain TAP loads for the 6.8mm SPC cartridge would be a good starting point for the evaluation of  this cartridge.  The test vehicle for this evaluation was a custom upper built around a 16” Noveske Recon barrel chambered for the 6.8mm SPC cartridge.  The barrel is stainless steel and has polygonal rifling with a 1:10” twist.  








As the title of this post states, this initial comparison is between Hornady’s 110 grain TAP load and the 110 grain V-MAX load. Upon visual inspection, the two loads appear to be identical.  Both loads use the 0.277” 110 grain V-MAX bullet with a cannelure.  Both loads have a crimp at the case neck (no case mouth sealant.)  Both loads have a similar charge of a charcoal colored, short-cut extruded powder.  The head-stamp of both loads reads, “Hornady 6.8mm REM SPC”.  Both loads have a crimped primer (no primer sealant.)  If you were to place a few rounds of each load on a table in front of me, I wouldn’t be able to tell the two loads apart.  The 110 grain V-MAX bullet is pictured below along with other bullets of the same caliber produced by Hornady.



















The evaluation began with chronograph testing.  Since I already had the chronograph set-up, I also chronographed two other 6.8mm SPC loads from Hornady; their 110 grain BTHP TAP load and the “Custom” 110 grain BTHP/WC load.  (Other than the different box that they came in, these two loads also appeared identical to each other.)

An Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology was used in testing.  All strings of fire consisted of 10 shots each.  All velocities listed are muzzle velocities, as calculated from instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software.








Accuracy testing was performed from a bench-rest at 100 yards using a Leupold Vari-X III set at 25 power for sighting.  Wind conditions were monitored using a Wind Probe.  All groups consisted of 10-shots each.  Prior to testing the Hornady ammunition, I fired three 10-shot groups in a row using a control load that utilized hand-loaded 115 Sierra MatchKings.  The extreme spreads for those groups measured:

0.99”
1.00”
1.12”

for a 10-shot group grand average of 1.04”.  Following my usual procedure for evaluating the accuracy of ammunition, I overlayed these three 10-shot groups on each other using the RSI Shooting Lab software program to form a 30-shot composite group.  The mean radius for this 30-shot composite group was 0.37”.


best 10-shot group of control load





In order to remove as much of the operator variability as practically possible and to give the Hornady ammunition every opportunity to prove itself, I fired five 10-shot groups of the Hornady ammunition from 100 yards and used the best three groups for evaluation.  Starting with the Hornady 110 grain TAP load, the three 10-shot groups used for evaluation had extreme spreads of:

1.73”
2.08”
2.14”

for a 10-shot group grand average of 1.98”.  As above, these three groups were overlayed on each other to form a 30-shot composite group with a mean radius of 0.69”.



smallest 10-shot group of 110 TAP






The three 10-shot groups of the Hornady 110 grain V-MAX load obtained for evaluation had extreme spreads of:

2.43”
2.59”
2.74”

for a 10-shot group grand average of 2.57”.  The mean radius for the 30-shot composite group was 0.75”  The composite groups are shown below side-by-side for comparison.



smallest 10-shot group of 110 V-MAX






30-shot composite groups







Additional 6.8mm SPC chronograph data.

Great job Molon.  Are you going to try the SSA 115 Gr. SMK?

FWIW...

While loading up mags for a weekend shoot, The following two flawed rounds were found out of a single 200rd case of Hornady 8126N (5.56 T2 TAP) (Lot# 3071004)...



The first round (A) has a mis-shaped / deformed bullet. Though this round would probably have fired just fine...It's likely that that deformation would have adversely affected both the shot's accuracy and ballistics. Here's a shot of the round...



The second round (B) is flawed in a more serious manner, having a split and bulged case neck. Here's a side-view look at the round... (Sorry it not in better focus...)



The point of this post is simply to ALWAYS visually inspect each round of ammo either before, or as you load it.

I have purchased and fired literally thousands of Honady's T2 TAP cartridges, and while I have only rarely encountered any problems (less than ten to date)... please know that no "factory" ammo company is perfect, and that even a "top tier" case of ammo can contain flaws.

Hope this helps...
FlDiveCop71

A friend tried some SSA vs Hornady TAP 6.8 and the SA was easily shooting groups half the size of the Hornady.  The Hornady 6.8 loads suck IMO.  They might have some great terminal ballistics but the soft point hunting loads will smoke the Hornady loads using the match ammo so I am sure the SA loads using the SMK will crush the Hornady OTM loads.

Molon-

Outstanding stuff and a great scientific effort. Since I have a few boxes of the 75-gr .223 Hornady Match and I am curious...did you ever do frag range testing for the 3 barrels (14.5, 16 & 20) with this bullet? It seems a bit different from the 75-gr TAP bullet in that it does not have a cannellure and this might impact fragmentation. Please advise it you have the info.
Thanks,
phoenix27  

Seems like the 6.8mm ammo is doing +100fps less than it did during DOCGKR's testing.  Load it hot for the early testing and then castrate it in production....

Originally Posted By SOSNBA: Seems like the 6.8mm ammo is doing +100fps less than it did during DOCGKR's testing.  Load it hot for the early testing and then castrate it in production....

The problem with Hornady is that they use commercial powder because of all the SAAMI chambers still around.  SSA is the only company that produces regular and combat loaded ammo which is the right thing to do.

Originally Posted By phoenix27: Molon- Outstanding stuff and a great scientific effort. Since I have a few boxes of the 75-gr .223 Hornady Match and I am curious...did you ever do frag range testing for the 3 barrels (14.5, 16 & 20) with this bullet? It seems a bit different from the 75-gr TAP bullet in that it does not have a cannellure and this might impact fragmentation. Please advise it you have the info. Thanks, phoenix27

The cannelure, or lack there of, has no effect on fragmentation.

Originally Posted By paulosantos: Great job Molon.  Are you going to try the SSA 115 Gr. SMK?

I did chronograph that load (along with a couple of Remington loads) but I haven't done any accuracy testing with it.

Originally Posted By SOSNBA: Seems like the 6.8mm ammo is doing +100fps less than it did during DOCGKR's testing.  Load it hot for the early testing and then castrate it in production....

Take a look at the Remington loads in the above post.

Molon,
What is your opinion of the 6.8?  Compared say to the .223 or 5.56 in the 75 grain variety?  Is it that much better?

Originally Posted By Rcd567: Molon, What is your opinion of the 6.8?  Compared say to the .223 or 5.56 in the 75 grain variety?  Is it that much better?

[editorial mode on]


It's clear that the 6.8mm SPC has superior terminal ballistics compared to the heavy OTM loads in .223/5.56.  It's also clear (to me at least) that factory loaded ammunition for the 6.8mm SPC has some accuracy issues to be worked out (and not just the Hornady loads that I tested for this thread.  I won't even post the results of some of the Remington ammunition I tested.)  I do realize the 6.8mm SPC was developed as a combat cartridge, not a target round, but so was the Hornady 5.56mm TAP load and it has demonstrated much better accuracy than the factory loaded 6.8mm SPC ammunition that I tested.

During my very limited testing of factory loaded 6.8mm SPC ammunition, I  had several failures to feed.  I also experienced failures of the bolt to lock back after the last round of the magazine was fired when using a rifle length buffer tube/receiver extension.

I'd personally like to see more powders developed specifically for the 6.8mm SPC and made available to reloaders as well as a wider variety of bullets designed specifically for the 6.8m SPC (not just generic .277 bullets.)  IMHO the 6.8mm SPC has an amazing potential, but I'm not trading in all my .223/5.56 uppers just yet.


[editorial mode off]

OST

OSB

Old School Bump

More grist for the test mill.

bump

Shooting from a 16" barrel you state that .223 tap fpd frags out to 115 yrds.  Is there
really any advantage to this round over a 55 fmj that frags at the same distance?
I can see where the nato version extends frags to 185 yrds & is advantagous.
Does the tap fpd still offer more lethality at longer ranges?  Does  it still break in half
at longer range but not frag?

First off, let's start with more of an apples to apples comparison, ie a .223 pressure 55 grain FMJ load versus a .223 pressure 75 grain OTM load.  You'll be lucky to find a .223 pressure 55 grain FMJ load that does more than 2,950 fps from a 16" NATO chambered barrel.  As the generally accepted fragmentation threshold for a 55 grain FMJ bullet is 2,700 fps, that gives you a fragmentation range of only 65 yards (not 115 yards as you stated.)  If all you gained with the use of the 75 grain TAP load was the additional 50 yards of fragmentation range, that would be a huge advantage right there.

Now, take a look at a representative gel shot from a .223 55 grain FMJ load, (in this particular case American Eagle at a velocity of 2869 fps.)




Compare that to a gel shot from a round of .223 75 grain TAP.

Originally Posted By war-wagon: Shooting from a 16" barrel you state that .223 tap fpd frags out to 115 yrds.  Is there really any advantage to this round over a 55 fmj that frags at the same distance? I can see where the nato version extends frags to 185 yrds & is advantagous. Does the tap fpd still offer more lethality at longer ranges?  Does  it still break in half at longer range but not frag?

I answered this question in another thread but the advantages would include...

Lower flash of the 75 grain ammo
Earlier yaw and fragmentation
More consistant fragmentation
Larger wound profile
More retained mass through certain intermediate barriers
Better accuracy
Reduced wind drift at range
Increased wound profile when the bullet yaws and does not deform

Negatives would be

Decreased ability to penetrate certain barriers due to velocity
Increased cost
Increased drop at closer ranges due to reduced velocity

I noticed that the 6.8mm loads used in the gel testing above are going about 150fps faster than what 'real' factory loads are actually going.

Originally Posted by Molon: Originally Posted By IBTLplus1: Excellent work. Thanks for the info. Any idea on a cheaper bullet that would have near the same trajectory. I know Hornady sells the 75gr FMJ rounds as practice rounds, but from what I have seen it matches the 75gr TAP FPD better than the 75gr 5.56 TAP. Actually, the Hornady 75 grain "practice" round uses an OTM bullet.  As far as I know Hornady does not offer the T2 bullet as a reloading component    and I am unaware of any inexspensive substitute for the bullet.

For those of you who aren't already aware, the 75 grain BTHP bullet loaded by Prvi Partizan in their Match Line of ammunition, is now available as a reloading component.  With a little comparative shopping and buying in large amounts this bullet can be purchased for a very reasonable price.

For those of you who aren't already aware, the 75 grain BTHP bullet loaded by Prvi Partizan in their Match Line of ammunition, is now available as a reloading component. With a little comparative shopping and buying in large amounts this bullet can be purchased for very reasonable price.

Who sells them?

Look here:

http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8438&dir=278|281|727

Anyone test if PPU 75gr HPBT frags and at what velocities?

Here's another gel-shot of the 75 grain 5.56 TAP load.



from Hornady's website

Originally Posted By vicious_cb: Anyone test if PPU 75gr HPBT frags and at what velocities?

Not that I know of...  it could have early or late yaw (see 77 grain Sierra vs Hornady 75/Nosler 77) it could also have a thicker or stronger copper alloy in the jacket or more antimony in the lead resulting in less fragmentation or a decrease in the fragmentation range at a given velocity.

Untill you see ballistic testing done, Privi 75 bullets are not a cheaper rplacement for Hornady or Nosler bullets for defensive ammunition IMO.

Thanks for the test data!