Originally Posted By Molon: Here is an interesting gel-shot for comparison.  It illustrates the problem from a terminal ballistic standpoint of using M855 in a 14.5" barreled M4.  Look at the length of that neck!  (Remember, the anterior-posterior measurement [thickness] of the upper chest area of the average adult male in America is 9.5" and even less for "Skinnies".) home.comcast.net/~gocartmozart/m855_gel_shot_50_yards_02.jpg

AWESOME INFORMATION

Look at that LOOONG neck

I would of thought it would do better

Molon can tell me how the Hornady 75 grain "practice" #9760 ships? i.e. 500 rds cases?

And thanks for such great info, and all of your hard work!

Great thread! Any chance of getting a "Hornady Practice 75gr v. Hornady 75gr FPD" test in the future? I'll kick in the ammo.

Originally Posted By USMC_X_Sniper: Molon can tell me how the Hornady 75 grain "practice" #9760 ships? i.e. 500 rds cases? And thanks for such great info, and all of your hard work!

I personally don't use the 75 grain practice ammo (other than the few boxes I obtained for chronographing) so I'm afraid I cant' answer that question.

Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts: Great thread! Any chance of getting a "Hornady Practice 75gr v. Hornady 75gr FPD" test in the future? I'll kick in the ammo.

The velocities of the two loads are very similar; they probably only vary as much as the lot-to-lot variations between the two loads.  I haven't done an accuracy comparison between the two loads, so we might just have to add that to "The List."

Originally Posted By Molon: Here's a graph of the trajectories of 5.56 TAP and TAP FPD fired from a 14.5" M4 barrel 5.56 TAP muzzle velocity:  2627 fps TAP FPD muzzle velocity:   2450 fps

 Is there any muzzle velocity data using a [10.3/10.5] Barrel?
Furthermore, according to the Ammo Oracle, the 2,700 fps rule for Fragmentation doesn't really apply to this stuff, rather it's more like the 2,100 fps rule.

Is the reason this stuff is so effective due to the OTM nature (i.e. controlled expansion) more so than fragmentation?
^^^^^^^
Serious question.
-Thanks.

b t t

Originally Posted By TheMocoMan: Originally Posted By Molon: Here's a graph of the trajectories of 5.56 TAP and TAP FPD fired from a 14.5" M4 barrel 5.56 TAP muzzle velocity:  2627 fps TAP FPD muzzle velocity:   2450 fps  Is there any muzzle velocity data using a [10.3/10.5] Barrel? Furthermore, according to the Ammo Oracle, the 2,700 fps rule for Fragmentation doesn't really apply to this stuff, rather it's more like the 2,100 fps rule. Is the reason this stuff is so effective due to the OTM nature (i.e. controlled expansion) more so than fragmentation? ^^^^^^^ Serious question. -Thanks.

The excellent terminal ballistics of the heavy OTM rounds is achieved in no small part due to their high percentage of fragmentation, not controlled expansion.  Refer to the works of B & T Ammo Labs.

wyv3rn gives a good explanation of the fragmentation threshold for the 75 grain BTHP on page one of this thread.  2,250 fps is the fragmentation threshold settled on for the fragmentation charts in this thread.

I'm afraid I don't have any chronograph data for barrels shorter than 14.5" as the unwashed masses are not allowed to own such things here in MI (it's for The Children, don't you know!)

Originally Posted By Molon: Originally Posted By TheMocoMan: Originally Posted By Molon: Here's a graph of the trajectories of 5.56 TAP and TAP FPD fired from a 14.5" M4 barrel 5.56 TAP muzzle velocity:  2627 fps TAP FPD muzzle velocity:   2450 fps  Is there any muzzle velocity data using a [10.3/10.5] Barrel? Furthermore, according to the Ammo Oracle, the 2,700 fps rule for Fragmentation doesn't really apply to this stuff, rather it's more like the 2,100 fps rule. Is the reason this stuff is so effective due to the OTM nature (i.e. controlled expansion) more so than fragmentation? ^^^^^^^ Serious question. -Thanks. The excellent terminal ballistics of the heavy OTM rounds is achieved in no small part due to their high percentage of fragmentation, not controlled expansion.  Refer to the works of B & T Ammo Labs. wyv3rn gives a good explanation of the fragmentation threshold for the 75 grain BTHP on page one of this thread.  2,250 fps is the fragmentation threshold settled on for the fragmentation charts in this thread. I'm afraid I don't have any chronograph data for barrels shorter than 14.5" as the unwashed masses are not allowed to own such things here in MI (it's for The Children, don't you know!)

Hornady states in their literature that max effective range,is the threshold where the terminal performance closely approximates that which they show for each load (penetration/fragmentation).  it equates to ~2200fps for 75gr., not 2259fps.  Not a huge difference but worth noting.  They state that the SAAMI load is good to 225yards out of a 20" barrel.  A 5.56mm load in an M4 provides similar muzzle velocity to SAAMI 75gr load in a  20" weapon so I'd expect a similar max frag range (~225 yards).

I tested both rounds to see if they would cycle the USR gas trap rifle.  This rifle eats up full poser loads but will short stroke on loads that are not full power.  The police load ran like a champ and blew the middle out of a one inch bullseye at 100 meters.  The civi load had to be cycled by hand and fired a tight group almost an inch lower.
The civie stuff is NOT as powerful as the military/police load.  These were the 75 grain stuff.

So where can I find the 5.56 stuff again?

Let me see if I'm following this correctly.  Hornady makes 4 different 75 grain offerings?
1)  Brown Box
2)  Black Box FPD
3)  Red Box .223 (equal to FPD)
4)  Red Box 5.56

That about right?  All marked TAP except the brown box.  The top three are ballistically about the same?

height=8

Originally Posted By Rcd567: Let me see if I'm following this correctly.  Hornady makes 4 different 75 grain offerings? 1)  Brown Box 2)  Black Box FPD 3)  Red Box .223 (equal to FPD) 4)  Red Box 5.56 That about right?  All marked TAP except the brown box.  The top three are ballistically about the same?he

Originally Posted By USMC_X_Sniper: Originally Posted By Rcd567: Let me see if I'm following this correctly.  Hornady makes 4 different 75 grain offerings? 1)  Brown Box 2)  Black Box FPD 3)  Red Box .223 (equal to FPD) 4)  Red Box 5.56 That about right?  All marked TAP except the brown box.  The top three are ballistically about the same? As you can see you missed the Hornady 75 grain "practice" #9760 which Molon posted. And it does ships in 500 rds cases. FYI 1K of it cost me 269.00 shipped.

269$ per thousand from where???

bp

they are steel case ones?

Originally Posted By USMC_X_Sniper: Originally Posted By Rcd567: Let me see if I'm following this correctly.  Hornady makes 4 different 75 grain offerings? 1)  Brown Box 2)  Black Box FPD 3)  Red Box .223 (equal to FPD) 4)  Red Box 5.56 That about right?  All marked TAP except the brown box.  The top three are ballistically about the same? As you can see you missed the Hornady 75 grain "practice" #9760 which Molon posted. And it does ships in 500 rds cases. FYI 1K of it cost me 269.00 shipped.

Can AD mil get 5.56 Tap from Hornady?  If so how much is it?

Originally Posted By ic_guerrero: Can AD mil get 5.56 Tap from Hornady?  If so how much is it?

I heard that you can. Not sure how much it is. I would assume its the same price as for LE.

An IC Huh?

You were my favorite guys in the Navy cause you had all the movies

I called today for LE. She said it was 12 something a box or like 125.00 for 200rds. She said they were out but they would probably have some in 2weeks. This was for 5.56.

Molon,
Once again I bow to your knowledge.  Am awaiting this summer when you can add the Black Hills blue and red box 75 grain information to this thread.

Molon,

thanks for sharing all the info!  much appreciated...

Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail: Originally Posted By ic_guerrero: Can AD mil get 5.56 Tap from Hornady?  If so how much is it? I heard that you can. Not sure how much it is. I would assume its the same price as for LE.

Thanks

An IC Huh? You were my favorite guys in the Navy cause you had all the movies

And phones in port.

Originally Posted By ic_guerrero: And phones in port.

I liked the phones and e-mail underway.

Hey guys,
 I've been dying to ask you all how everyone feels about doing a "Group Buy" on some Hornady TAP ammo?
 We could all band together, and do a huge group buy to save $$.
I personally would prefer to buy defensive purpose ammo, so not really looking for the practice rounds with steel casings, but I would prefer some of the other 75 gr stuff.
 Whatever Molon feels is the best for defense?  Either 75gr TAP FPD, or the 75gr 5.56 TAP maybe???

 What say you guys????

5.56 TAP is LE only ammo.  The steel case is also LE only ammo.  All LE already get 5.56 TAP at under $120 per 200 and you cant do a group buy for civilians as neither Hornady  nor arfcom will allow it.  Also ammo group buys are fiascos and not usually allowed at all unless you are personally willing to buy the ammo in advance.  The last defensive ammo group buy I got ripped off for 1000 rounds.  Your idea will NEVER happen.  Not in a million years.

Originally Posted By DevL: 5.56 TAP is LE only ammo.  The steel case is also LE only ammo.  All LE already get 5.56 TAP at under $120 per 200 and you cant do a group buy for civilians as neither Hornady  nor arfcom will allow it.  Also ammo group buys are fiascos and not usually allowed at all unless you are personally willing to buy the ammo in advance.  The last defensive ammo group buy I got ripped off for 1000 rounds.  Your idea will NEVER happen.  Not in a million years.

Group Buys on AMMO are possible.  Just need a man of honor to pull it off.
Kiser = the man.  Of course no that wasn't for "defensive" ammo but if the Kiser is running the show WATCH OUT!  :)
www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=121&t=439946

Like I said, the ammo must be paid for in advance and we cant get LE only ammo, neither can Kiser... it is not offered to Hornady retail dealers.  That group buy was paid for in advance and the ammo already in hand before the GB happened.  You cant do a group buy on 5.56 TAP or steel cased ammo.  Besides, there is no demand on arfcom for 5.56 TAP.  People buy small quantites and hoard it and dont shoot it so once people have what they want they dont want anymore most of the time. Even if Kiser lowered his price from $195 to $150 for the .223 TAP he might only sell 5K of ammo and he would have to buy it all in advance.  People buy MK262 and 5.56 TAP for less than that already.  A group buy is not gonna happen.

Hornady's 75 Grain Practice Ammunition


Hornady’s 75 grain practice ammunition uses a Berdan primed, steel case instead of a brass case to reduce the cost of the loaded cartridge.  The round uses Hornady’s 75 grain BTHP bullet with a cannelure (referred to as the T1C here on AR15.com.)  The round is charged with ball powder and has a muzzle velocity similar to Hornady’s 75 grain TAP FPD.  Fired from my 20” Colt government profile barrel with a NATO chamber, a 10-shot string had an average muzzle velocity of 2,646 fps with a standard deviation of 9 fps.











The steel case employs the heaviest amount of bullet-pull I have ever encountered in a 223 Remington case.  I was unable to remove a bullet from the case using Dillon’s kinetic bullet puller, so I chucked a Lee collet bullet-puller into my reloading press and attempted to pull the bullet.  I still couldn’t get the bullet out of the case!  At that point, I had to resort to more primitive means to get the bullet out of the case.







I tested the accuracy of the 75 grain practice round following my usual procedures.  Using a free-floated 20” Colt HBAR and shooting from a bench-rest from 100 yards, I obtained three 10-shot groups and over-layed them on each other using RSI Shooting Lab.  The 30-round composite group had a mean radius of 0.47”.  While not as accurate as Hornady’s 75 grain TAP FPD, accuracy was on par with the 75 grain 5.56 TAP load.  

How closely does the impact point of the practice load match the 5.56mm duty version?

Hey Molon,
You going to include data from the Black Hills Red and Blue boxed 75 grain stuff?  I know your busy, but think it would fit perfectly into this thread.

Originally Posted By Rcd567: Hey Molon, You going to include data from the Black Hills Red and Blue boxed 75 grain stuff?  I know your busy, but think it would fit perfectly into this thread.

Coming soon, to a TAP thread near you!

Originally Posted By SOSNBA: How closely does the impact point of the practice load match the 5.56mm duty version?

I haven't done a direct comparison between the practice load and the 5.56 TAP load.  I did however, do a comparison between the 5.56 TAP load and one of my handloads using the 75 grain BTHP bullet loaded to the same velocity as the practice load.  The target pictured below gives you a graphic  representation of the results.  The groups were shot from 100 yards.  The X-ring on the target meausres 1.5" and the 10-ring measures 3.5".

While this image has nothing to do with this thread.....I needed to get this back to page 1.

Black Hills 75 grain Match HP Ammunition:  blue box versus red box







The difference between Black Hills’ red box and blue box ammunition lies primarily with the brass case.  Red box ammunition is newly manufactured using virgin brass.  Blue box ammunition is referred to as “remanufactured” because is uses once fired brass that has been resized.  This enables Black Hills to sell the blue box ammunition at a reduced price compared to their red box ammunition.

Black Hills’ 75 grain Match HP (hollow point) ammunition is loaded with Hornady’s 75 grain BTHP Match bullet with a cannelure (commonly referred to as the "T1C") and both the red box and blue box loads have a crimp at the case mouth.  Both loads are charged with “ball powder.”  The nominal OAL for the red box cartridges ran around 2.245” and for the blue box cartridges it was closer to 2.250".






















The cases used in the red box ammo have sealed primers and the headstamp of most lots of this load read “BHA 223 MATCH.”  These virgin cases have a nominal length of 1.755”.  The cases used in the blue box load tend to be a mix of once fired Lake City and Winchester brass.  The military primer crimps has been removed by the reaming method.  The blue box loads do not have sealed primers.  












Black Hills does not perform a “trim to length” operation on the resized cases used in the blue box ammunition.  As a result, many of the cases are longer than the SAAMI recommended maximum length of 1.760”.  Several of the cases that I measured had a length of 1.775”.  This could potentially cause problems in a barrel with a minimum length chamber, though no malfunctions of any kind were experienced during the testing of this ammunition.  (Using a Sinclair chamber length gauge, I determined the chambers of my Colt barrels have a length of 1.780”.)

Both loads were chronographed using four different length barrels.  All of the Colt barrels used in testing have a NATO chamber and a 1:7” twist.  The 24” Krieger barrel has a 5.56 Match chamber and has a twist rate of 1:7.7”.  On their web-site, Black Hills advertises a muzzle velocity of 2,750 fps for these loads, but they do not state the barrel length associated with this velocity.

An Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen technology” was used in testing.  All velocities listed are muzzle velocities obtained from the instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software.  Strings of fire consisted of 10 rounds each.










While chronographing the Black Hills loads through the 24” Krieger barrel, I also chronographed three of Hornady’s SAAMI pressure, 75 grain loads that use the T1C bullet for comparison.










For additional comparison, I also fired the Black Hills loads side-by-side with some of the Hornady 75 grain SAAMI pressure loads from the 20” Colt A2 barrel.













atmospheric conditions:

Average temperature- 80 degrees F
Humidity - 48%
Barometric pressure – 29.04
Elevation- 960 feet above sea level




100 yard Accuracy Evaluation of Black Hills 75 grain MHP:  red box versus blue box.





As previously discussed in this thread, the primary difference between Black Hills' red box and blue box ammunition lies with the brass case.  Red box ammunition uses virgin brass, while blue box ammunition uses once fired brass that has been resized.  

Accuracy testing of both loads was done from a bench-rest at 100 yards.  The test-vehicle was an AR-15 with a 24” stainless-steel Kreiger VarMatch barrel, with a 1:7.7” twist, installed on a LaRue Tactical Stealth upper receiver.  A Leupold Competition Series Scope was used for sighting.  No malfunctions of any kind were experienced during testing.









Prior to testing the Black Hills ammunition, I obtained three 10-shot groups of a control load consisting of hand-loaded Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings (at a distance of 100 yards of course.)  Those three groups had extreme spreads of:

0.547”
0.57”
0.69”

for an average extreme spread of 0.602”.

The three 10-shot groups were overlayed on each using RSI Shooting Lab to obtain a 30-shot composite group that had a mean radius of 0.19”.



Following the same procedures used with the control load, three 10-shot groups of the Black Hills red box 75 grain MHP fired from 100 yards were obtained.  Their extreme spreads measured:

0.96”
1.00”
1.04”

for an average extreme spread of 1.00”.

As with the control load, the three 10-shot groups from the red box ammunition were overlayed on each other to obtain a 30-shot composite group with a mean radius of 0.32”.

In the same manner as above, three 10-shot groups of the blue box 75 grain MHP were obtained from 100 yards with extreme spreads of:

1.11”
1.16”
1.16”

for an average extreme spread of 1.14”.

Those three 10-shot groups overlayed on each other had a mean radius of 0.37”.   Here are the 30-shot composite groups side-by-side for comparison.










Lastly, for any Internet Commandos in our viewing audience, I fired a 3-shot group of the red box 75 grain MHP from 100 yards.  That group measured 0.276”.








....

Good work!

For additional comparison, I also fired the Black Hills loads side-by-side with some of the Hornady 75 grain SAAMI pressure loads from the 20” Colt A2 barrel.






 

Molon,

Just a quick note of thanks for this excellent information, great photography and superior graphs/charts. We're honored to have someone like yourself perform such a service.

Da nada.  

Originally Posted By cowboy7242001: So, if I'm reading this right, my Black Hills blue box 75gr rounds are only 37FPS slower then my Hornady TAP 5.56 out of my M4 barrel?? I owe you a beer. You just made my ammo buying easier and cheaper for a very long time.

NO- the velocity listed above is the .223 pressure 80265 load not the 5.56 8126N.

The 5.56 out of the same barrel would be about 2820fps.

Sorry to break the bad news

Originally Posted By cowboy7242001: Actually I was going off the numbers from page one: Hornady 75 TAP 5.56 T2 Colt 14.5" M4 profile bbl   2627 fps and from this page: Black Hills 75 grain match HP Blue box Colt 14.5" M4 Profile bbl   2590 fps 2627 - 2590 = 37 fps differance in a M4 bbl. The differance is greater with the longer barrel (by 116 fps) but since i have M4 length and shorter barrels, this is happy news for me. Sorry, I can't do nifty charts and I didn't want to steal Molon's to make my point.

Oh yeah now I understand what you are saying.....sorry

Hey that is good news

You guys never listen.  Next lot those number will be reversed, lot after that, reversed again.  There is NO DIFFERENCE IN VELOCITY.  Differences noted are lot to lot variances.  BLUE BOX IS NOT HOTTER THAN RED BOX.  You cant just say that Blue Box velocuty is going to be the same as what anyone else will get in any other lot.  It could very well be less velocity than the Red box has this time.  How does that make ammo buying easier?  You like knowing your ammo could vary by 100+ fps lot to lot so you want to avoid it?  You will test Blue and Red box and find hot lots to save on 5.56 TAP and not buy the lots that are way lower velocity?  Will you chrono each lot to find the ones you want and how will you find enough ammo in that lot without buying a large amount at once before testing?  I have had Red Box chrono over 150 fps faster than Blue Box.  What does that prove?  Only that Black Hills has some bad lot to lot variances.  Dont hold onto these figure so tightly because they will just lip through your fingers when you do testing of your own.  That could have easily been the hottest Blue Box ever and the weakest lo of 5.56 TAP ever.  You buy Blue box expecting similar velocity and you end up with a 150+ fps difference... then what?

Originally Posted By DevL: You guys never listen.  Next lot those number will be reversed, lot after that, reversed again.  There is NO DIFFERENCE IN VELOCITY.  Differences noted are lot to lot variances.  BLUE BOX IS NOT HOTTER THAN RED BOX.  You cant just say that Blue Box velocuty is going to be the same as what anyone else will get in any other lot.  It could very well be less velocity than the Red box has this time.  How does that make ammo buying easier?  You like knowing your ammo could vary by 100+ fps lot to lot so you want to avoid it?  You will test Blue and Red box and find hot lots to save on 5.56 TAP and not buy the lots that are way lower velocity?  Will you chrono each lot to find the ones you want and how will you find enough ammo in that lot without buying a large amount at once before testing?  I have had Red Box chrono over 150 fps faster than Blue Box.  What does that prove?  Only that Black Hills has some bad lot to lot variances.  Dont hold onto these figure so tightly because they will just lip through your fingers when you do testing of your own.  That could have easily been the hottest Blue Box ever and the weakest lo of 5.56 TAP ever.  You buy Blue box expecting similar velocity and you end up with a 150+ fps difference... then what?

It doesn't really matter to me anyway.

Soon I will have enough 5.56 TAP to start my own army

(not really)

Originally Posted By DevL: You guys never listen.  Next lot those number will be reversed, lot after that, reversed again.  There is NO DIFFERENCE IN VELOCITY.  Differences noted are lot to lot variances.  BLUE BOX IS NOT HOTTER THAN RED BOX.

WTH? Actually, using our EYES, we can see DISTINCT DIFFERENCES in the POWDERS used in the Red -v- Blue comparison Molon posted. The powders used in RED BOX and BLUE BOX are completely DIFFERENT POWDERS, therefore they will have different chrono results.

Why Black Hills uses different powders between the two is beyond me and only known to them...

Rmpl

Originally Posted By Molon:

That BLUE BOX powder looks a lot like the powder in the MK262 (flattened, river pebble-like ball), and the velocities you recorded could be in the MK262 area if a 77g was used...

Do you have a MK262 powder photo to compare with the Blue Box powder? My photo is nowhere as detailed as your pics...

Molon, your ammo posts are always a pleasure to study...

Rmpl

This powder is from the latest lot of MK262 seconds that I have on hand.  (The squares in the grid measure 0.10".)








On a note of interest, I also chronographed the Black Hills loads using the Berger 73 grain BTHP bullet.  Fired from a 20" Colt A2 barrel, the muzzle velocities of the red box and blue box loads were nearly identical.


Black Hills 73 grain Berger BTHP red box:  2740 fps

Black Hills 73 grain Berger BTHP blue box:  2744 fps

Originally Posted By Rmplstlskn: Originally Posted By DevL: You guys never listen.  Next lot those number will be reversed, lot after that, reversed again.  There is NO DIFFERENCE IN VELOCITY.  Differences noted are lot to lot variances.  BLUE BOX IS NOT HOTTER THAN RED BOX. WTH? Actually, using our EYES, we can see DISTINCT DIFFERENCES in the POWDERS used in the Red -v- Blue comparison Molon posted. The powders used in RED BOX and BLUE BOX are completely DIFFERENT POWDERS, therefore they will have different chrono results. Why Black Hills uses different powders between the two is beyond me and only known to them... Rmpl

Yeah those lots have different powders.  I have seen the powders be identical as well.  You have no guarantees with Black Hills.  You cant even guarantee they will use new Black Hills brass with red box nowdays.  People have had Red box with military brass.  You can only loook at EACH LOT of ammo.  The official position of Black Hills is the ammo is the same velocity.  Differences you see are only lot to lot differences and cannot be relied upon.  You cant have any guarantees about the powder, brass, velocity etc.  Each lot is very consistant but lot to lot variances can be great.

For further illustration, here are pics of the powders from the Black Hills 73 grain Berger BTHP red box and blue box loads . . .













. . . and just to make things interesting, here is a pic of the powder from a round of the Black Hills 77 grain Sierra MatchKing red box load.