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Posted: 1/27/2014 3:38:51 AM EDT
[#1]
I do not have any piston AR's but I would assume MOA may be possible but that is 3 times bigger than what true precision AR's can do.
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Posted: 1/27/2014 6:32:25 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I keep being told by various LGS that this isn't possible. My first reaction is that's bullshit because anything is possible. However, I can't prove it so . . . ar15.com to the rescue? Is it possible to build a 5.56/.223 rifle with a piston system that can hold MOA? Or is this simply not possible due the piston having to be attached to the barrel? Anyone telling you a piston system can't hold MOA is biased. First, we would need to know a distance, then we would need to discuss what parameters (Ammo type? 3 shot group? 10 shot group? Barrel type?). But let's address some misconceptions: (1) Who told you the piston is attached to the barrel? Piston systems have free floated barrels no different than DI guns. The piston replaces the gas tube - and the gas tube doesn't contact the barrel. The only component touching the barrel is the gas block - which is the same across both configurations. (2) You can turn the returning gas OFF in a piston system (provided it has a tunable gas plug), effectively making it a single shot, bolt action rifle. (3) MOA precision is more effected by barrel type (Bull > Heavy > M4 Profile > Pencil) and ammo choice, than operating system. MOA accuracy is a factor of the person pulling the trigger, how good a shooter they are, and how well they dialed in their sights/optics. |
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Posted: 1/27/2014 6:44:53 AM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 1/29/2014 1:55:10 PM EDT
[#4]
This isn't to say I'm a good shot or I have a target rifle, but this at 50 yds with an AA upper shows promise. It's handload SS109 in mixed brass and a stab at 24.3 TAC. Freezing cold and an ACOG for an optic. I jogged back and forth in the snow to put it up the target and took less than 3 seconds for each shot. All five might have touched but I had to clear a round and reset my position and pulled the last two. Granted it would open a little at 100, but this is nice for a 3 moa bullet. I don't do precision stuff, so this is just fine for me.
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Posted: 1/30/2014 8:16:33 AM EDT
[#5]
My POF is easily sub MOA. I just wish I could find a way to put a rifle length rail on it. My M6 A2 shoots MOA as well.
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Posted: 2/1/2014 5:52:08 AM EDT
[#6]
PWS used to make their accurized rifles with DI. Not sure if they still do. So that should tell you something. Get both.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 5:58:31 AM EDT
[#7]
My 5.56 carbine with AA piston kit shoots 3/4 moa 5 shot groups at 100yds with my 77gr smk handloads 8 out of 10 shot groups easily from my bipod and sock filled with rice under the stock for support and that is through a CL YHM 16in fluted barrel.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 3:56:20 PM EDT
[#8]
doing a precision piston has been something I also have been looking into...
I did my sbr and really like the ease of cleaning. I would really like to see what others have built that would be considered a "precision" piston, maybe in a 20 inch or longer... I am considering really hard on switching mine to piston maybe this year.. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 4:06:41 PM EDT
[#9]
I shot this group with my LWRC M6A2 at 100 yards with PMC Bronze .223 and an Aimpoint CompM4..-
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Posted: 2/4/2014 5:25:45 PM EDT
[#10]
This is a 5 shot group @ 100 yards using a SIG 516 w/ 16" barrel shooting PMC Bronze 55gr. As you can see once I got my zero dialed in I shot this center half inch group. The black diamond in 1" across.
I got this 5 shot group @ 100 yards from a 10.5" SIG 516. About 1 MOA. 
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Posted: 2/4/2014 5:28:56 PM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 2/4/2014 6:36:22 PM EDT
[#12]
Very nice grouping everyone...
Makes me lean more to converting over.. Thinking AA Rifle length with a samson evo Black hole weaponry 1x8 20 inch heavy that it already has.. |
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Posted: 2/5/2014 12:12:55 PM EDT
[#13]
REPRs seem to be accurate in general, same with SCARs (albeit not AR platform but piston design)... DI AR's are a mature standardized design, that is what people love about them, but nothing wrong with a quality built piston system... Eugene Stoner himself made the AR-18/AR-180 which is basically the inspiration of the current LWRC set ups, just saying.
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Posted: 4/6/2014 5:35:28 PM EDT
[#14]
I also have a POF P308 14.5" barrel that will shoot sub half minute at 100 with 168 gr GMM. I agree that whomever told you that its not possible was possibly biased. I have shot and owned both DI and piston platforms. I now own only pistons but thats a personal preference
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Posted: 4/7/2014 10:41:29 AM EDT
[#15]
Very first 3 shot grouping with my M6 IC 14.7". The rifle was unfired prior to this shot group and subsequently was zeroed after. Shot grouping was done at 25 yards prone supported with a MEPRO MOR. Target zero was set for 300 yards. For grouping and zeroing I was shooting Lake City M855.
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Posted: 4/7/2014 12:32:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My 5.56 carbine with AA piston kit shoots 3/4 moa 5 shot groups at 100yds with my 77gr smk handloads 8 out of 10 shot groups easily from my bipod and sock filled with rice under the stock for support and that is through a CL YHM 16in fluted barrel. I'm doing exactly this with 69g HPBTs, 1:8 Rainier select 18" barrel. If it were so difficult high-end players like LWRC, Ruger, Sig, to name a few wouldn't use them. Think about a piston system. For it to affect accuracy it would have to do something different than a DI system, and earlier in the cycle. As the system isn't cycling until the bullet has left the muzzle there is NO DIFFERENCE in a DI vs Piston gun until after this happens. A gas block is a gas block, and the projectile doesn't know what type it is as it's going past itat 3000+ fps and continuing to accelerate. |
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Posted: 4/7/2014 5:19:54 PM EDT
[#17]
M6A3 DMR 100 yards Zeroing in my ACOG
Anyone who tells you a piston rifle is not accurate is ignorant. Can a DI version of the same rifle do better? Who know, in theory possibly. But once you start putting up sub 1" groups, seeing practical differences in accuracy means taking your shots beyond the effective limits of 5.56. My REPR was even better, don't have any pics of those groups though. Now if you are planning a precision build how will a piston benefit you over DI. What kind of volume of fire do you plan on seeing? What do you intend to do with it. Pistons offer very little benefit over DI rifles in low volume of fire precision guns in my opinion. Beyond ease of maintenance you won't see much benefit with a low volume of fire. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 6:46:39 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
PWS used to make their accurized rifles with DI. Not sure if they still do. So that should tell you something. Get both. PWS used to produce the Wraith in a DI configuration originally because every 3-Gun shooter wanted a "slim tube" hand guard and the older PWS uppers and rifles could not accomodate that. The current Wraiths are simply a "accurized" and cerakoted MK118 Piston Driven .223 or MK220 Piston Driven .308 and have the keymod hand guard which is pretty narrow. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 12:42:12 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
PWS used to produce the Wraith in a DI configuration originally because every 3-Gun shooter wanted a "slim tube" hand guard and the older PWS uppers and rifles could not accomodate that. The current Wraiths are simply a "accurized" and cerakoted MK118 Piston Driven .223 or MK220 Piston Driven .308 and have the keymod hand guard which is pretty narrow. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
PWS used to make their accurized rifles with DI. Not sure if they still do. So that should tell you something. Get both. PWS used to produce the Wraith in a DI configuration originally because every 3-Gun shooter wanted a "slim tube" hand guard and the older PWS uppers and rifles could not accomodate that. The current Wraiths are simply a "accurized" and cerakoted MK118 Piston Driven .223 or MK220 Piston Driven .308 and have the keymod hand guard which is pretty narrow. Man, 3-gun shooters are that picky?  That makes sense. My father has an old wraith and it is his absolute favorite gun. And he has old PWSs, new PWSs and just about everything else out there.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 1:02:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My POF is easily sub MOA. I just wish I could find a way to put a rifle length rail on it. My M6 A2 shoots MOA as well. you are in the same boat as I am. Thankfully the 3gun rail is coming out (14 inch rail) in a month. idk cost, but i hope its nothing to crazy. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 3:43:36 PM EDT
[#21]
Don't have a pic at the moment, but my POF 415 18" with Nosler 50gr BT's will do close to 1/2 moa at 100 yards. My buddy's 415 16" groups right about the same with the Nosler's as well.
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Posted: 4/11/2014 7:15:47 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you are in the same boat as I am. Thankfully the 3gun rail is coming out (14 inch rail) in a month. idk cost, but i hope its nothing to crazy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My POF is easily sub MOA. I just wish I could find a way to put a rifle length rail on it. My M6 A2 shoots MOA as well. you are in the same boat as I am. Thankfully the 3gun rail is coming out (14 inch rail) in a month. idk cost, but i hope its nothing to crazy. I just saw the new gen rifles the other day. I'm glad they finally figured out that people wanted a longer rail on their rifles. Looks like the gas block is further out with a longer op rod too. If they would make a rail like that to fit my carbine length POF I'd be a happy man. |
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Posted: 4/12/2014 11:25:42 AM EDT
[#24]
5 @ 50 with a 11.5 inch barrel Adams Arms piston kit. #3 timney and IOR 3x23 |
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Posted: 4/12/2014 4:44:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
I keep being told by various LGS that this isn't possible. My first reaction is that's bullshit because anything is possible. However, I can't prove it so . . . ar15.com to the rescue? Is it possible to build a 5.56/.223 rifle with a piston system that can hold MOA? Or is this simply not possible due the piston having to be attached to the barrel? Correct that anything is possible but might not be worth the effort. I dumped plans I had many years ago for a super accurate M1a because the effort and money were not worth it compared to a less expensive and more accurate out of the box AR in 308. My somewhat educated opinion is that, on average, piston guns have an edge with regard to reliability and DI guns have an edge where precision is concerned. There will be exceptions in both directions. I personally chose an LMT MRP 12" piston (high volume SBR) and also have an 18" SS DI barrel for it. Also have an LMT MWS with a DI 20" 6.5 Creedmoor barrel. The first group ever shot with that barrel (see below) was 0.80" with factory ammo / not not letting the barrel rest between shots or groups (100 yards / 5 shot groups) 
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Posted: 4/12/2014 5:32:30 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Man, 3-gun shooters are that picky? That makes sense. My father has an old wraith and it is his absolute favorite gun. And he has old PWSs, new PWSs and just about everything else out there.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
PWS used to make their accurized rifles with DI. Not sure if they still do. So that should tell you something. Get both. PWS used to produce the Wraith in a DI configuration originally because every 3-Gun shooter wanted a "slim tube" hand guard and the older PWS uppers and rifles could not accomodate that. The current Wraiths are simply a "accurized" and cerakoted MK118 Piston Driven .223 or MK220 Piston Driven .308 and have the keymod hand guard which is pretty narrow. Man, 3-gun shooters are that picky? That makes sense. My father has an old wraith and it is his absolute favorite gun. And he has old PWSs, new PWSs and just about everything else out there.I don't know about all this. Two of the top 3 gun shooters used PWS piston guns for at least the last year (Greg Jordan and Tommy Thacker). One of them (Greg Jordan) won $50k in a 3 gun match recently using a PWS piston gun. I just saw a picture on Facebook where one of the new PWS sponsored shooters (Lance Dingler) shot a 2" group (3 shots) at 400 yards using a PWS piston rifle. You need to scroll down to a March 24 post to see the picture and comment: https://www.facebook.com/lance.dingler HighSpeedSteel |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:07:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Funny how somebody asking a simple piston precision question quickly turns a thread into a PWS fan page.
+1 pws = precision piston |
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