Early Experimental Magazines

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Early Experimental Magazines

Posted: 8/26/2016 12:52:11 AM EDT

A friend of mine asked me about early magazines a week ago.... We'll get back to him in a second.

First a little background.

I've had these mystery mags for years (got them in 2006). Didn't get a good answer to what they were.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/305415_Need_help_identifying_plastic_20_round_mags.html

another thread with prototype mags here:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=329733

m1sniper asked about them a few years later here:
https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=577353

I saved this picture and description from an auction and that's all the info I ever found out about these:

Dating from the early 1960’s come these four different experimental disposable magazines as tested at Aberdeen Proving Grounds. They include: Black plastic, ribbed, parkerized steel feed lips and mag catch, plastic follower, OD plastic cover, (see page 379 of the Black Rifle book); Clear all plastic embossed FULL, steel coil spring, translucent plastic cover (cracked) (also on page 379); Black all plastic, rounded side floorplate; and Black all plastic, squared edge floorplate. Also, the first Colt manual “Instructions for the Operation of the Colt Armalite AR-15 Automatic Rifle”, somewhat soiled white cover, 8.5x11, near perfect inside 22 pages plus 22x28 two-color fold out exploded diagram and 11x16 cutaway diagrams, ca 1960 (page 84 of Black Rifle book). A rare group of earliest material for the advanced AR collector. Thanks for looking, and please email us with any questions PRIOR to bidding. Winning bidder pays $8 shipping (USPS Priority insured). Post Office money order assures quick shipping; other checks are accepted, but must clear. Email us by clicking on the blue “rampant1" above if you’d like to get our current list of Colt memorabilia, Colt Experimental Ammunition or Worldwide .223 (5.56mm) single specimens (mostly Viet Nam era and earlier).

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Back to my friend asking about early magazines....

Posted: 8/26/2016 12:54:18 AM EDT

[#1]

He texts me these pics.

He picked up 11 magazines with some great background info and provenance. My assumptions all those years about my magazines being from Aberdeen Proving Grounds was correct.

More info on those magazines to follow

Posted: 8/26/2016 12:54:31 AM EDT

[#2]

My mystery magazine was made my AAI Corporation

AAI Corporation originated as Aircraft Armaments, Inc. in August 1950, founded by six aviation and defense industry professionals. It was renamed AAI Corporation in the late 1950s.
AAI’s parent company, United Industrial Corporation (UIC), was originally founded as Hayes Body Corporation in the early 1900s. Renamed many years later, UIC was admitted into the New York Stock Exchange for trading on December 15, 1964.
From 1994 to 2004, AAI partnered with the Czech firm, Škoda, in a joint venture to manufacture trolley buses. The joint venture, named Electric Transit, Inc., supplied 330 trolley buses to San Francisco and Dayton before being dissolved in 2004.
On 22 June 2006 Aerosonde Ltd was acquired by AAI.[1]
Textron acquired AAI and other subsidiaries of UIC with its purchase of the parent company for approximately $1.1 billion in 2007. AAI became part of Textron's helicopter subsidiary, Bell Textron, in the acquisition.[2]
Today, AAI owns or occupies more than 1,100,000 square feet (100,000 m2) of office and manufacturing space across Australia, the United Kingdom and the USA.
As of May 2014, AAI had been made into three parts: Unmanned Systems, Support Solutions, and Electronic Systems. The company is still registered as an active corporation in the State of Maryland under the name, AAI Corporation.[3]

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Only mention I could find about them and AR15 magazines is here:
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=2724

Appears there were several versions of these magazines

Early Design 1

Early Design 2

Intermediate Design 1 w/ dust cover

Intermediate Design 2

Late Design

Aberdeen Proving Ground report on the 20 round plastic magazines from 1969. for the late LWL design.

Thanks to ordnance for loaning the report and BROvet04 for scanning and sharing it.

PDF

Posted: 8/26/2016 12:54:42 AM EDT

[#3]

Next is the General Electric Clear Plastic Magazine

Unknown Plastic Magazine with Dust Cover, note the non-removable floorplate

Posted: 8/26/2016 12:54:54 AM EDT

[#4]

Rock Island Arsenal

Early Design with Feed Lip Changes

Late Design

Half metal/Half Plastic

Posted: 8/26/2016 12:55:07 AM EDT

[#5]

Looks like these companies were all trying to design a cheaper disposable magazine.

The AAI/LWL article notes this

Between 1966 and 1969, LWL also worked on the development of a lightweight plastic magazine for the M16A1 rifle. Though the existing aluminum magazines were intended to be disposable, this still came at a relatively high cost. It was hoped that a plastic magazine could be produced at a cost that would make it truly disposable. The Army had also identified other potential benefits to a plastic magazine. For one, metal magazines in pouches rattled together, creating noise that could give a unit away. The jungle environment in Vietnam was also leading to a corrosion problem. Lastly, when troops discarded the magazines as intended, it potentially gave insurgents a ready supply of aluminum with which to build things, including boobytraps. In the end, given the material available at the time, the magazines produced by LWL were not as durable as the existing metal ones under any conditions, and work was halted.

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Posted: 8/26/2016 12:55:19 AM EDT

[#6]

Hope you guys enjoyed looking at these pics and reading about them as much as I did. My friend is pretty happy about his score. I'm a little jealous but just glad he shared them with me and gave me permission to share them with you.

Retro is all about patience. I had to wait 10 years to finally know definitively what magazines I had. I knew they were special but never knew the story behind them.

I may not have 11 different ones but I'm happy to own the 3 that I do have.

Posted: 8/26/2016 12:57:19 AM EDT

[#7]

Posted: 8/26/2016 1:10:28 AM EDT

[#8]

rad, dude!

Posted: 8/26/2016 4:43:29 AM EDT

[#9]

Nice!

Posted: 8/26/2016 6:51:58 AM EDT

[#10]

Its like the magpul

Posted: 8/26/2016 9:37:13 AM EDT

[#11]

This is an retro area that I knew nothing about, wow, thanks for sharing this bw

Posted: 8/26/2016 10:01:56 AM EDT

[#12]

AAI Intermediate 2's kind of remind me of izzy orlites.

Too cool man

I love that these are in a private collection of someone who wants to show them off and learn as much as possible. That is the true spirit of our hobby! Thanks for sharing.

Posted: 8/26/2016 10:23:56 AM EDT

[#13]

Great information thank you for sharing

Posted: 8/26/2016 4:48:35 PM EDT

[#14]

Fascinating. Thanks

Posted: 8/26/2016 5:03:57 PM EDT

[#15]

Those are very cool!

The one with the yellow on it does it say defective material or different material I can't quite read what it says.

Posted: 8/26/2016 5:36:36 PM EDT

[#16]

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Those are very cool!

The one with the yellow on it does it say defective material or different material I can't quite read what it says.

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yeah says different material. since it was a later one, they probably marked it to show they changed the plastic formula.

Posted: 8/26/2016 5:38:51 PM EDT

[#17]

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Fascinating. Thanks

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Posted: 8/26/2016 5:58:02 PM EDT

[#18]

Thanks for sharing such wonderful information. I'm pretty sure that I once saw one of the mags for sale at a gun show, but I had no idea what it was. Now I have SOMETHING ELSE to keep my eyes open for, lol.

Posted: 8/26/2016 6:16:41 PM EDT

[#19]

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yeah says different material. since it was a later one, they probably marked it to show they changed the plastic formula.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Those are very cool!

The one with the yellow on it does it say defective material or different material I can't quite read what it says.

yeah says different material. since it was a later one, they probably marked it to show they changed the plastic formula.

Ah ok changed formula makes sense, maybe a stronger blend.

Posted: 8/26/2016 6:24:03 PM EDT

[#20]

Thanks for sharing. We had a picture show up here a month or two ago with a GI crossing water. His M16 had a funny looking mag in it that we thought it was two mags taped together with a plastic cigarette case on it. It looked a heck of a lot like the ones in this thread with the caps.

Posted: 8/26/2016 7:03:29 PM EDT

[#21]

Maybe part of the "disposable" mag project ?

Posted: 8/26/2016 8:44:23 PM EDT

[#22]

So Boywonder.............when might we see these in the EE?

Posted: 8/26/2016 9:32:15 PM EDT

[#23]

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So Boywonder.............when might we see these in the EE?

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i already tried to pry them from his hands. no luck. did get first right of refusal if they ever come up for sale. i'm just happy to have gotten pics.

Posted: 8/26/2016 9:32:51 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
Maybe part of the "disposable" mag project ?

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Quoted:
Maybe part of the "disposable" mag project ?

yeah, at least the AAI ones probably were. see my note above

Between 1966 and 1969, LWL also worked on the development of a lightweight plastic magazine for the M16A1 rifle. Though the existing aluminum magazines were intended to be disposable, this still came at a relatively high cost. It was hoped that a plastic magazine could be produced at a cost that would make it truly disposable. The Army had also identified other potential benefits to a plastic magazine. For one, metal magazines in pouches rattled together, creating noise that could give a unit away. The jungle environment in Vietnam was also leading to a corrosion problem. Lastly, when troops discarded the magazines as intended, it potentially gave insurgents a ready supply of aluminum with which to build things, including boobytraps. In the end, given the material available at the time, the magazines produced by LWL were not as durable as the existing metal ones under any conditions, and work was halted.

Posted: 8/26/2016 11:47:50 PM EDT

[#25]

Holy shit, Lionel - that's outstanding!

Posted: 8/27/2016 12:14:19 AM EDT

[#26]

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Holy shit, Lionel - that's outstanding!

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i can't take credit besides for hosting the pics. i'm glad they went to someone who knew the significance of them. my original 3 mags i bought over a decade ago were thought to be thermolds or orlites when i bought them. i knew what they weren't but didn't know what they were until now.

Posted: 8/27/2016 10:03:19 AM EDT

[#27]

Boywonder thanks for sharing the photos of the plastic M-16 mags, you did terrific finding three of them and your friend has eleven no less with the original stickers! These mags along with other items from the Arsenal and Navy Wepons Lab have materialized over the years, how did they get out? Were they part of a surplus sale?

Posted: 8/27/2016 4:07:51 PM EDT

[#28]

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Boywonder thanks for sharing the photos of the plastic M-16 mags, you did terrific finding three of them and your friend has eleven no less with the original stickers! These mags along with other items from the Arsenal and Navy Wepons Lab have materialized over the years, how did they get out? Were they part of a surplus sale?

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my friend said they came from someone associated with aberdeen proving grounds. my guess is that like many collectibles, folks are getting older and passing them along to another generation. i'm just glad that they had the associated information with them. if they weren't stickered, we'd be scratching our heads and going through the thermold/orlite debate again

Posted: 8/27/2016 5:33:24 PM EDT

[#29]

Thanks for sharing. I will now keep my eye out for one of these at up coming gun shows. I learn a lot on the retro forum

Posted: 8/27/2016 9:41:51 PM EDT

[#30]

And this is why this sub-forum is awesome.

Posted: 8/29/2016 1:33:26 AM EDT

[#31]

A few of these magazines are pictured on page 379 of the The Black Rifle

Posted: 8/29/2016 5:07:18 PM EDT

[#32]

Wow, very cool subject which is documented and presented very well. I can tell that took some time and effort; thanks for sharing, Lionel.

THIS THREAD NEEDS TO BE "STICKIED"!

Posted: 8/29/2016 7:51:57 PM EDT

[#33]

That was very informative and great work and pic's.Just tell him to document for future because when he is not around anymore the family will take them to a pawn shop or a quick Garage sale and say ten bucks we don't care. And the history and the mags will be gone forever to someone who can care less about them. It happens everyday..I ended up with the belt feed device from Chuck Dorchester decades ago in a pile of AR-18 stuff I bought from Armalite thrown in the box. There prototype for the AR-10 AR-15 SERIES. and of course sold it off. figuring what will I do with it. Ciener used it to make his belt feed AR-15'S back when.

So we must preserve and document or is it gone forever...THANKS and a salute for that info on the mags.

Posted: 8/31/2016 10:16:08 AM EDT

[#34]

Wow, very impressive

Posted: 8/31/2016 2:59:37 PM EDT

[#35]

I might of had one of these mags some years ago but sold it since by even after market standards it looked cheap in comparison. I'll check my photo library to see if I still have a picture of it.

Posted: 8/31/2016 3:00:09 PM EDT

[#36]

I might of had one of these mags some years ago but sold it since by even after market standards it looked cheap in comparison. I'll check my photo library to see if I still have a picture of it.

Posted: 9/1/2016 12:35:47 PM EDT

[#37]

Thanks for taking the time to post this info Lionel.
Thanks!

Posted: 9/7/2016 1:38:12 AM EDT

[#38]

I heard that Israel messed around with an Orlite 20 rounder, but scratched it. One of those look to have Hebrew characters on it. Any Hebrew speakers here? If not, I think a guy on the M1 Carbine Milsurps board speaks it. I could check there.

Posted: 9/7/2016 2:03:43 AM EDT

[#39]

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I heard that Israel messed around with an Orlite 20 rounder, but scratched it. One of those look to have Hebrew characters on it. Any Hebrew speakers here? If not, I think a guy on the M1 Carbine Milsurps board speaks it. I could check there.

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I heard that Israel messed around with an Orlite 20 rounder, but scratched it. One of those look to have Hebrew characters on it. Any Hebrew speakers here? If not, I think a guy on the M1 Carbine Milsurps board speaks it. I could check there.

you referring to this pic?

it's LWL 1

It was in response to these threats that the U.S. Army created the Limited War Laboratory (USALWL or just LWL) in 1962 at Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland. Other U.S. Army development activities were largely focused on the potential for open warfare with the Soviets. Insurgents on the other had presented an almost completely different adversary, against which the full conventional power of the U.S. military could not always be directed.

Posted: 9/18/2016 5:57:00 PM EDT

[#40]

Aberdeen Proving Ground report on the 20 round plastic magazines from 1969. Looks to be the later LWL design.

Thanks to ordnance for loaning the report and BROvet04 for scanning and sharing it.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9hAva_yxlzPc19QaXFzOWw4MkU

Posted: 9/18/2016 11:05:45 PM EDT

[#41]

thats crazy that so little was known about them, i wonder how brittle the plastic is on them after all these years.

Posted: 9/18/2016 11:52:32 PM EDT

[#42]

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thats crazy that so little was known about them, i wonder how brittle the plastic is on them after all these years.

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i'm amazed at how many made it out after the trials. there's at least 6 of the late LWL magazines on this forum alone. you would think after the trials, there were supposed to be destroyed or returned and how they made it out into civilian hands 50+ years later.

also crazy how many years it took for us to ID these mags.

Posted: 9/19/2016 6:05:35 AM EDT

[#43]

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Quoted:

i'm amazed at how many made it out after the trials. there's at least 6 of the late LWL magazines on this forum alone. you would think after the trials, there were supposed to be destroyed or returned and how they made it out into civilian hands 50+ years later.

also crazy how many years it took for us to ID these mags.

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Quoted:
thats crazy that so little was known about them, i wonder how brittle the plastic is on them after all these years.

i'm amazed at how many made it out after the trials. there's at least 6 of the late LWL magazines on this forum alone. you would think after the trials, there were supposed to be destroyed or returned and how they made it out into civilian hands 50+ years later.

also crazy how many years it took for us to ID these mags.

I'd like to get my hands on one after reading the study!