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Posted: 5/20/2016 11:22:27 PM EDT
This is in retro b/c I suspect this is a prototype upper made from an A1 upper. I seem to recall Lt Col Lutz (coldblue) mentioning the early A2 windage wheel has the sharp edges which were then rounded. It also has the peep hole in the back to see the elevation numbers. The barrel has a very strange assembly bolted on.
Upper Assembly 
Brass Deflector is made of aluminum and attached to the upper with what looks to be adhesive 
Rear Sight Wheel has non-chamfered edges 
Eleveation Wheel numbered 2-7, not the modern 8/3 markings 
Peep Hole with Aperture marked = instead of 0-2 
Transplanted Rear Sight Assembly. I see weld marks, I think the A2 rear sight assembly was transplanted on this A1 upper. You can see the discoloration from the welds after it was anodized 
Handguards have the DO NOT REMOVE markings on the heatshields and a professionally done cutout at the bottom 
Barrel has a strange assembly on the back at the barrel nut and at the front at the handguard cap with 2 threaded rods attaching the 2 pieces. 
A1 Port Door 
C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 marking, font seems a little light like the C MP CHROME BORE markings 
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Posted: 5/20/2016 11:28:48 PM EDT
[#1]
Almost looks like an early attempt at a free floating barrel. That is obviously an A1 upper with the A2 sight assembly and Brunton bump scabbed on! Wow, COOL FIND, Lionel!
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Posted: 5/20/2016 11:42:50 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Almost looks like an early attempt at a free floating barrel. That is obviously an A1 upper with the A2 sight assembly and Brunton bump scabbed on! Wow, COOL FIND, Lionel! I think you may be right about the free floating. I guess they had to do the cutout at the bottom since the bottom lug to keep it from rotating sticks out too much for the handguards to fit without the relief. |
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Posted: 5/20/2016 11:48:53 PM EDT
[#3]
What an awesome find!
Thx for sharing |
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Posted: 5/20/2016 11:48:59 PM EDT
[#4]
what barrel markings
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Posted: 5/20/2016 11:52:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what barrel markings updated in the OP |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:00:32 AM EDT
[#6]
looks like only thing left is the dust cover lol neat upper the gas tube o
looks like it had mag dumps. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:01:30 AM EDT
[#7]
Go figure BW finds the only A2 thats actually retro
 Cool find man... |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:01:45 AM EDT
[#8]
alright guys whos gonna duplicate ????
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:12:21 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
alright guys whos gonna duplicate ???? you're our resident upper welder fixer upper 
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:13:36 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Go figure BW finds the only A2 thats actually retro Cool find man...
thanks. welding that thing together and anodizing took some skills. kinda like when they got and welded the MARS prototype. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:25:45 AM EDT
[#11]
I'm not understanding the purpose of the hand-guard cutout, doesn't seem like it needs to be so large for the anti-rotation tab on what appears to be a freefloat system. The tab could have been profiled to be just like a gastube on the bottom and thus custom handguard mod not needed.
The welded on A2 sight looks like it was taken from a forging and not machined, which leads me to believe the A2 receiver was already in existence. Maybe someones custom competition service/match rifle? ETA: The handguard cutout appears to be for some kind of mounting system that would slide back into the lug slots in front of the barrel nut |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:27:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Thanks for the idea
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:30:59 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not understanding the purpose of the hand-guard cutout, doesn't seem like it needs to be so large for the anti-rotation tab on what appears to be a freefloat system. The tab could have been profiled to be just like a gastube on the bottom and thus custom handguard mod not needed. The welded on A2 sight looks like it was taken from a forging and not machined, which leads me to believe the A2 receiver was already in existence. Maybe someones custom competition service/match rifle? maybe that notch at the bottom served another function? fwiw, this upper supposedly came from a former colt employee who said it was a prototype. the a2 upper may have been in existence but this is showing signs of the really early designs with the peep hole and unnchamfered sight wheel. not sure why they would go through the trouble to graft it to an a1 upper and affix the brunton bump if the a2 upper was already finalized. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:31:27 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for the idea http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx96/sergio762/20160520_231735_zpsy1k055ha.jpg |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:32:53 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ETA: The handguard cutout appears to be for some kind of mounting system that would slide back into the lug slots in front of the barrel nut hopefully coldblue can shed some light on it. i think you may be onto something about it being match rifle since they went to a lot of trouble to free float it. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:32:58 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: maybe that notch at the bottom served another function? fwiw, this upper supposedly came from a former colt employee who said it was a prototype. the a2 upper may have been in existence but this is showing signs of the really early designs with the peep hole and unnchamfered sight wheel. not sure why they would go through the trouble to graft it to an a1 upper and affix the brunton bump if the a2 upper was already finalized. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm not understanding the purpose of the hand-guard cutout, doesn't seem like it needs to be so large for the anti-rotation tab on what appears to be a freefloat system. The tab could have been profiled to be just like a gastube on the bottom and thus custom handguard mod not needed. The welded on A2 sight looks like it was taken from a forging and not machined, which leads me to believe the A2 receiver was already in existence. Maybe someones custom competition service/match rifle? maybe that notch at the bottom served another function? fwiw, this upper supposedly came from a former colt employee who said it was a prototype. the a2 upper may have been in existence but this is showing signs of the really early designs with the peep hole and unnchamfered sight wheel. not sure why they would go through the trouble to graft it to an a1 upper and affix the brunton bump if the a2 upper was already finalized. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:34:25 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I noticed lugs that indicate the slot was for some kind of attachment system. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not understanding the purpose of the hand-guard cutout, doesn't seem like it needs to be so large for the anti-rotation tab on what appears to be a freefloat system. The tab could have been profiled to be just like a gastube on the bottom and thus custom handguard mod not needed. The welded on A2 sight looks like it was taken from a forging and not machined, which leads me to believe the A2 receiver was already in existence. Maybe someones custom competition service/match rifle? maybe that notch at the bottom served another function? fwiw, this upper supposedly came from a former colt employee who said it was a prototype. the a2 upper may have been in existence but this is showing signs of the really early designs with the peep hole and unnchamfered sight wheel. not sure why they would go through the trouble to graft it to an a1 upper and affix the brunton bump if the a2 upper was already finalized. what could mount that far back? m203 w/ custom mount? |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:35:11 AM EDT
[#18]
Fair to assume the barrels and a2 handguards were well into production.
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:37:17 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: what could mount that far back? m203 w/ custom mount? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm not understanding the purpose of the hand-guard cutout, doesn't seem like it needs to be so large for the anti-rotation tab on what appears to be a freefloat system. The tab could have been profiled to be just like a gastube on the bottom and thus custom handguard mod not needed. The welded on A2 sight looks like it was taken from a forging and not machined, which leads me to believe the A2 receiver was already in existence. Maybe someones custom competition service/match rifle? maybe that notch at the bottom served another function? fwiw, this upper supposedly came from a former colt employee who said it was a prototype. the a2 upper may have been in existence but this is showing signs of the really early designs with the peep hole and unnchamfered sight wheel. not sure why they would go through the trouble to graft it to an a1 upper and affix the brunton bump if the a2 upper was already finalized. what could mount that far back? m203 w/ custom mount? |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:41:27 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fair to assume the barrels and a2 handguards were well into production. yeah. maybe this was an early upper that was repurposed w/ later barrel and HGs? they don't seem to match up timeline wise. would be cool if it has this early barrel with that upper 
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Posted: 5/21/2016 5:27:44 AM EDT
[#21]
I can't wait to hear what Coldblue has to say. Very cool find Lionel. Interesting how that Brunton bump is attached.
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Posted: 5/21/2016 8:42:34 AM EDT
[#22]
Boywonder, you have one of my program's M16A1E1 prototype uppers. It is authentic and correct except for what I think is a subsequent attempt to improve mounting a M203 grenade launcher. I say this because the front of this mod is positioned where the front of a M203 would locate just behind the FSB. And in fact a bit "adjustable" due to the threaded rods that would compensate for variances between rifles. The element in front of the barrel nut appears to be slotted at 6 o'clock for a rear M203 affixing component. I remember telling Colt several times during the program (1980-1983) how much the then current M203 affixation sucked for the M16A1, and this is perhaps one of their attempts to address this. But I's bet if they ever showed it to the Army logisticians at Rock Island, they would have rejected it as "not being invented here." That was just the way they were back then.
Back to the upper. I have seen one or two other uppers with the peep hole (filled in with latter A2 rear sight parts) and the epoxied (or missing) case deflector (all correct for the initial test M16A1E1 uppers) but yours also has the correct "800 meter" sight leaf flip as well. This is missing from others I have seen because as the final leaf's with the 200 meter ghost ring aperture became available, we changed them out so our post-testing rifles at Quantico would be more correct to the rifles Colt was to produce. By the way, the barrel marking is correct on that barrel as NATO 1:7. There were also 12 M16A1E1 uppers with 1"12 rifled barrels and so marked, but I have never seen one of them pop up. Also, yours has the correct A1 type dust cover latch. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 11:14:44 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Boywonder, you have one of my program's M16A1E1 prototype uppers. It is authentic and correct except for what I think is a subsequent attempt to improve mounting a M203 grenade launcher. I say this because the front of this mod is positioned where the front of a M203 would locate just behind the FSB. And in fact a bit "adjustable" due to the threaded rods that would compensate for variances between rifles. The element in front of the barrel nut appears to be slotted at 6 o'clock for a rear M203 affixing component. I remember telling Colt several times during the program (1980-1983) how much the then current M203 affixation sucked for the M16A1, and this is perhaps one of their attempts to address this. But I's bet if they ever showed it to the Army logisticians at Rock Island, they would have rejected it as "not being invented here." That was just the way they were back then. Back to the upper. I have seen one or two other uppers with the peep hole (filled in with latter A2 rear sight parts) and the epoxied (or missing) case deflector (all correct for the initial test M16A1E1 uppers) but yours also has the correct "800 meter" sight leaf flip as well. This is missing from others I have seen because as the final leaf's with the 200 meter ghost ring aperture became available, we changed them out so our post-testing rifles at Quantico would be more correct to the rifles Colt was to produce. By the way, the barrel marking is correct on that barrel as NATO 1:7. There were also 12 M16A1E1 uppers with 1"12 rifled barrels and so marked, but I have never seen one of them pop up. Also, yours has the correct A1 type dust cover latch. i appreciate you chiming in with the history and background on this upper. when i saw the windage knob, i remembered you talking about it. i wasn't sure about the welds until i got it in my hands and then noticed that the whole a2 assembly was grafted on. what are your thoughts on this upper and barrel i have in my old thread here: https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=629893 barrel looks like an early 1/7 barrel with a strange profile. not sure about the upper. it has the peep but it's a CM marked upper. some folks speculated it's too old for the peephole and that someone must have done it themselves. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 12:53:08 PM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 5/21/2016 3:19:08 PM EDT
[#25]
You asked:
i appreciate you chiming in with the history and background on this upper. when i saw the windage knob, i remembered you talking about it. i wasn't sure about the welds until i got it in my hands and then noticed that the whole a2 assembly was grafted on. All our M16A1E1 prototypes were welds like this due to the cost and risk of prematurely committing to a new forging die (very expensive). what are your thoughts on this upper and barrel i have in my old thread here: https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=629893 I think I answered that awhile back, but given the photo above of a much smaller diameter hole at the rear of the charging handle (which is as the originals) yours (linking back to your photo) was made b someone to resemble the E1's, albeit easier to use due to its larger diameter. And your flip is with the final 5mm ghost ring/ normal range aperture of the final A2 model. So I believe it was put together later with more available parts. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 3:23:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You asked: i appreciate you chiming in with the history and background on this upper. when i saw the windage knob, i remembered you talking about it. i wasn't sure about the welds until i got it in my hands and then noticed that the whole a2 assembly was grafted on. All our M16A1E1 prototypes were welds like this due to the cost and risk of prematurely committing to a new forging die (very expensive). what are your thoughts on this upper and barrel i have in my old thread here: https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=629893 I think I answered that awhile back, but given the photo above of a much smaller diameter hole at the rear of the charging handle (which is as the originals) yours (linking back to your photo) was made b someone to resemble the E1's, albeit easier to use due to its larger diameter. And your flip is with the final 5mm ghost ring/ normal range aperture of the final A2 model. So I believe it was put together later with more available parts. Where did the A2 rear sight housings come from that were welded on prior to the new forging dies being made? So the barrel attachments are for the M203 and not free floating? The tension btw the front and rear piece is to support the M203? On the other upper, probably a homebrew and not something from Colt due to the later parts right? I know you said it's a later put together, just curious as to if colt could have put it together. Thoughts on the strange profile C MP CHROME BORE 7 barrel? Thanks for the insights. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 3:39:13 PM EDT
[#27]
Great find boywonder, glad it turned out to be something really special and unique.
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Posted: 5/21/2016 4:03:23 PM EDT
[#29]
actually this find was a lead from another member here. thanks for the lead, you know who you are.
we both thought it was interesting but not this interesting. |
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Posted: 5/21/2016 7:46:50 PM EDT
[#30]
This is tremendously cool. Good work BW!
What's the timeline on this? I'm too lazy to go looking through the Black Rifle books right now. When did A2 Development start/end? |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 1:56:00 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Boywonder, you have one of my program's M16A1E1 prototype uppers. And this is why I read ARFCOM. Thank you both, gentlemen. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 7:59:38 AM EDT
[#32]
You asked:
Where did the A2 rear sight housings come from that were welded on prior to the new forging dies being made? as far as I know, Colt made them in-house because the E1 prototypes were all made by them. No one else in 1982 would have gone through the trouble. So the barrel attachments are for the M203 and not free floating? The tension btw the front and rear piece is to support the M203? The threaded rods are adjustable for length to make up for the unpredictable dimensions between the rifle barrel nut and the rear edge of the forward barrel's larger diameter, which of course is a radius not a square shoulder, as well as the overall length of various M203's. To me, the "safety wire" holding the rods to individual assembly adjusted length is a dead giveaway, as M203 related, because the then current M203 method used safety wire as well, but to keep the front mounting screws from loosening. Also, the front edge of the M203 is a 90 degree flat surface so it needs a similar (shoulder)surface to bottom out on. On the other upper, probably a homebrew and not something from Colt due to the later parts right? I know you said it's a later put together, just curious as to if colt could have put it together. "I would say the upper was most likely a Colt because of the forged-in case deflector, but they knew by that time (having such a forging die) that the rear hole reading the rear elevation was changed to reading it from the left side as it is with the A2. Thoughts on the strange profile C MP CHROME BORE 7 barrel? I think early on Colt didn't know exactly the A2 profile that would be finalized. I mean we told them to just make it heavy on the muzzle end, didn't give them dimensions, just the concept. They also turned some full length 1:7's for "Old Dad' who was my counter part at Quantico for his heavy barrels tests, that could have been later turned to look more like A2's. |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 11:15:52 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You asked: Where did the A2 rear sight housings come from that were welded on prior to the new forging dies being made? as far as I know, Colt made them in-house because the E1 prototypes were all made by them. No one else in 1982 would have gone through the trouble. So the barrel attachments are for the M203 and not free floating? The tension btw the front and rear piece is to support the M203? The threaded rods are adjustable for length to make up for the unpredictable dimensions between the rifle barrel nut and the rear edge of the forward barrel's larger diameter, which of course is a radius not a square shoulder, as well as the overall length of various M203's. To me, the "safety wire" holding the rods to individual assembly adjusted length is a dead giveaway, as M203 related, because the then current M203 method used safety wire as well, but to keep the front mounting screws from loosening. Also, the front edge of the M203 is a 90 degree flat surface so it needs a similar (shoulder)surface to bottom out on. On the other upper, probably a homebrew and not something from Colt due to the later parts right? I know you said it's a later put together, just curious as to if colt could have put it together. "I would say the upper was most likely a Colt because of the forged-in case deflector, but they knew by that time (having such a forging die) that the rear hole reading the rear elevation was changed to reading it from the left side as it is with the A2. Thoughts on the strange profile C MP CHROME BORE 7 barrel? I think early on Colt didn't know exactly the A2 profile that would be finalized. I mean we told them to just make it heavy on the muzzle end, didn't give them dimensions, just the concept. They also turned some full length 1:7's for "Old Dad' who was my counter part at Quantico for his heavy barrels tests, that could have been later turned to look more like A2's. thank you for filling in the blanks on early A2 development. on the a2 rear sight housings, do you think they were machined individually or did they forge just the rear sight section and grafted them for testing? |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 11:34:59 AM EDT
[#34]
you know, you just can't beat someone who was there.
this kind of knowledge is very perishable (perish the thought!) |
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Posted: 5/22/2016 2:43:03 PM EDT
[#35]
on the a2 rear sight housings, do you think they were machined individually or did they forge just the rear sight section and grafted them for testing? I am sure they were machined after the block of aluminum had been welded in place. And more on the M203 adapter above. If you are familiar with KAC's M203 QD Latch Assembly, each is equipped with a 5-sided, star-shaped, spacer. This allows the User to vary the overall length of the M203 by five different thicknesses to ensure a tight fit between the barrel nut and the rear radius of the barrel behind the FSB. That should give you some idea why that adapter above had adjustability "built-in" to it. |
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Posted: 5/23/2016 11:54:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Thanks for the idea <a href="http://s745.photobucket.com/user/sergio762/media/20160520_231735_zpsy1k055ha.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx96/sergio762/20160520_231735_zpsy1k055ha.jpg</a> I'll look in the back and see if I have a "scrap" 603 upper you can use for the project. |
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Posted: 5/23/2016 6:49:16 PM EDT
[#37]
VERY COOL!
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Posted: 5/24/2016 12:39:40 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 5/25/2016 9:44:55 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll look in the back and see if I have a "scrap" 603 upper you can use for the project. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thanks for the idea <a href="http://s745.photobucket.com/user/sergio762/media/20160520_231735_zpsy1k055ha.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx96/sergio762/20160520_231735_zpsy1k055ha.jpg</a> I'll look in the back and see if I have a "scrap" 603 upper you can use for the project. That is what is so cool about this place. This hive can make the next to impossible happen. |
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Posted: 5/26/2016 1:47:57 AM EDT
[#41]
Nice find! For the A2 sight housing that was welded in, does it appear to have a forging seam on the inside? The look of the welded in portion looks more hand made than made from a forging to my eyes. The raised contours of the A2 section that line up with the rear sight look like they are hand profiled as opposed to made from a forging die / CNC machined to me. Also, in carry handle valley, does it look like it was machined out in one pass? I'm curious if a completely machined A1 receiver was cut and welded or if some machining steps like the carry handle valley were left undone. The charging handle latch recess looks a little home made too but I like the way it looks. I don't know much about welding, but if this was all made from 7075 does this confirm / refute thoughts on welding 7075?
ETA: Fix bad English |
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