User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 12:52:29 AM EDT
[#1]
Awesome. I can't make the Tulsa show this year.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 1:26:59 AM EDT
[#2]
A picture would of been nice.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 1:31:42 AM EDT
[#3]
This thread is worthless without pictures!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 1:35:03 AM EDT
[#4]
Tulsa Gun Show totally rocks. Have been going for several years now. Never ceases to light my fires in re the guns that in the past had only ever read about. Original Volcanic pistols and rifles, iron frame Henrys, the predecessor of the Fire storm etc. More goodies than I could ever imagine. Tulsa is a show not to be missed.. Go. Enjoy. Repeat!!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 2:43:25 AM EDT
[#5]
Very cool. I've been wondering since those rifles surfaced a while back how they returned to the U.S. In The Black Rifle, photo credits for these guns is given to Sidem International, of Brussels, Belgium, where I assume they have been for many years.
My guess is they were registered on a Form 2 at the point of manufacture and then exported for potential sales around the world. As such, I guess they were imported back into America with BATF approval. Did they fill in any of that info? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 12:48:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread is worthless without pictures! I'm pretty sure its a forum rule that unless you have a pic of you holding the rifle with a dated news paper it didn't happen. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 1:34:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Any back story on the rest of the prototype serial numbers? 0005, 06, etc... I assume that the first four were the first run for testing and then they created a second group that fixed weaknesses?
BTW, way cool that you got to touch them, hope you had your camera with you. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 1:39:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Figures... The one time I don't go
How about some pics? Maybe a month or so ago Larry vickers posted pics of #3 And it was in the hands of CC armory. And I thought #2 was on Reed knights wall |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 1:56:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Very cool, I wish I could have gone
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 2:00:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Will the owner let people take detailed pics?
I might ditch work and drive up |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 8:30:49 PM EDT
[#11]
I saw them...
at first I was not sure what I was looking at! Did not expect to walk up on them as I was cruising the show. No one behind in the booth but will try to get pictures tomorrow.
And sorry for anyone who tried to call - I left my phone on airplane mode and missed a few calls...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 8:50:55 PM EDT
[#12]
I saw them also, had to stop and gawk for several minutes. Seeing those the G-41m and STG 44 made the trip worth it, and they were all within 30 feet of each other.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 11:12:06 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I saw them also, had to stop and gawk for several minutes. Seeing those the G-41m and STG 44 made the trip worth it, and they were all within 30 feet of each other. Not at the show, but I got to hold an original STG-44 that was in a shop for some work being done. They are lighter than I expected. I was ecstatic when I was asked if I wanted to hold it. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/14/2015 11:43:15 PM EDT
[#14]
Gun shows frown on photos, so I wasn't about to whip out my camera. I went back and spoke with him again today. Both of these weapons were in Belgium, and have Belgian proof house markings on the bolts and receivers. After Colt got them back (they were on loan for testing), the same Colt executive was able to procure both weapons. He then sold them to the current owner. Serial number 0,1,2,3 & 4 were the first five original hand assembled prototypes. These first five had a larger "AR15" engraving than subsequent rifles. Also these first five had reverse threads on the rear sight with the sight wheel marked "L", and a clockwise arrow. Later models had standard threads on the rear sight, and an "L" and counter clockwise arrows. All of the first five had different flash hiders and barrel profiles. The first five had super fine lines on the mag catches. He also is 100% POSITIVE that the projection on top of the bipod adapter IS a bayonet lug. He says that Reed Knight has an original low profile bayonet that attaches to the projection, and that he has personally held it and attached it to a rifle. I spoke with him at length about having the rifles disassembled and having detailed photos of all of the parts, and hopefully I have convinced him to do so. He has never even had them apart to see what buffer and bolt was used. The sad thing, is that he is BLIND and will never be able to see the awesomeness of his weapons.
I am going to be speaking with him again tomorrow, so if anyone has any questions for him, please let me know, and I will try to get answers for you. If you are at the show, and want to stop by and say "HI", I am at the booth upstairs with a sign that says "Custom Made Dog-Tags". |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 9:06:56 AM EDT
[#15]
There was also a belt fed Stoner in, of all places, the Ruger Collector's display up against the dividing wall between upper and lower levels.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 9:49:41 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There was also a belt fed Stoner in, of all places, the Ruger Collector's display up against the dividing wall between upper and lower levels. Yea - I fulfilled a quite a few of my bucket list guns yesterday and going back today for a second look  Now if I can only get my partners up out of bed...it was a long night...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 11:26:22 AM EDT
[#17]
Outstanding information. No one has ever confirmed how the sight wheels were marked and functioned before.
I have a few questions if you don't mind; Can you tell if the butt plate is brown bakelite like the pistol grip? And, where the lower receiver and stock meet under the exposed buffer tube, is that part of the stock metal, or is it a different color plastic? It always seems to appear grey in all the pictures. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 2:10:00 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Outstanding information. No one has ever confirmed how the sight wheels were marked and functioned before. I have a few questions if you don't mind; Can you tell if the butt plate is brown bakelite like the pistol grip? And, where the lower receiver and stock meet under the exposed buffer tube, is that part of the stock metal, or is it a different color plastic? It always seems to appear grey in all the pictures. I just went and checked for you, so here are your answers: the butt plate is rubber. The exposed part of the buffer tube in bare aluminum, without anodizing. The edge of the stock, underneath the exposed buffer tube, is beveled, which makes it look like it us a different color. The butt stock is much thinner than a type "A" stock. I believe from your posts that you are doing #4. If that is correct, the barrel diameter is even thinner than later production prototypes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 5:51:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Ok I was able to get some pretty lousy pictures today. Sorry about that, but all I had was my phone and it is old...posting from the Tulsa Airport on my phone so please forgive the quality of this post..I have more pictures, but it will have to wait till I get home and on a computer - cool?
 " />
 " />
 " />
 " />
 " />
 " />
 " />
 " />
 " />
 " />
 " />
Also the Colt PDA? I think? Shorter round 5.56 x 39 with shortened receiver area, buffer tube and magazine (and well)  " />
You can see where they cut and welded the upper  " />
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 8:21:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Awesome!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 9:25:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Thank you Fastswift!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 9:48:45 PM EDT
[#22]
Thats some coin under that glass!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 10:04:05 PM EDT
[#23]
Very cool, love that Colt shortie
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 10:28:41 PM EDT
[#24]
WOW
that is amazing Looks like the 25 round mag
. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 10:43:48 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A picture would of been nice. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 10:51:29 PM EDT
[#26]
Great knowledge has been shared. We are in his and your debt. Thanks to all that have shared and will share.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 11:07:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Today, he put Colt M16 serial #1 on display. It is the EXACT weapon that President Kennedy held for photos at the White House. Talk about some providence! He was selling every rifle in his case (including the prototypes) for $1 million EACH!!!!!! If only I had the extra scratch, but I had already spent WAY too much on some awesome retro parts deals this weekend. I WILL post photos of some of my finds when I get home this week.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 11:14:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Er . . . I thought #1 was "destroyed during testing" ?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 11:16:07 PM EDT
[#29]
Who is this guy? How did he come to own all these weapons?
And a month ago proto num 3 was for sale for 125k,,, 1million ,, that's some serious inflation |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 11:24:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Er . . . I thought #1 was "destroyed during testing" ? I thought that always referred to the xar-15. So what they call prototype #2 is actually number 3 overall |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 11:33:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Admittedly, I don't have any other source of info, but BR Pg 67:
"By All Reports" for what that's worth. . . 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/15/2015 11:51:44 PM EDT
[#32]
Apparently, not only does prototype serial number one exist, but serial number zero exists as well, according to the owner of #2 & #3. However, when I said M16 serial number one was on display, I was NOT referring to prototype #1. I was referring to COLT M16 number one.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/16/2015 12:12:58 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Admittedly, I don't have any other source of info, but BR Pg 67: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5717/22429951104_5d8979b100_c.jpg "By All Reports" for what that's worth. . . Gotcha, I always assumed they meant this one as number one 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/16/2015 12:14:53 AM EDT
[#34]
So he has m16 # 1 ? Not ar15 num1.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/16/2015 1:39:43 AM EDT
[#35]
Ah! My mistake, Indiana. Forgive my misreading.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/16/2015 2:22:52 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WOW that is amazing Looks like the 25 round mag
. It was
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/16/2015 9:05:58 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
WOW that is amazing Looks like the 25 round mag
. It was
Yeah, I got to hold those too. They had stamped serial numbers, not electro penciled like I have seen on photos of others. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/16/2015 9:51:32 AM EDT
[#38]
Looks like from pictures, Reed knight has number 1 and 4.
And Springfield arms has at least 3. |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/16/2015 11:24:41 PM EDT
[#39]
The short rifle is the rare, Colt MARS PDW, 5.56x30.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/16/2015 11:45:33 PM EDT
[#40]
I would love to handle any original prototype. That is the Holy Grail!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2015 1:22:55 PM EDT
[#41]
I just saw a pic that a buddy of mine sent me via my phone and instantly thought maybe someone here saw the guns. I wish that I had been there. I've seen the Reed Knights' collection in person with Carbine Kid, but we were not allowed to touch anything. I would love to get close up pics of those guns if possible. I'm looking into trying to get another run of prototype FSB running again. I'm just not sure that my die has much more life left in it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/17/2015 1:31:39 PM EDT
[#42]
If it works out, I'm in for another, Rex.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/22/2015 9:35:10 AM EDT
[#43]
Guys, I have to chime in here.... I beat you all to the punch as it was me who handled and photographed #2 & #3 back in 1985 at Sidems in the UK for 'The Black Rifle' book!!!
I have been following the rifles since early last year when I asked Joe McClain at the Institute of Military Technology if they had them, he said not but they do have #1 & #4 (as well as many other prototype Armalites). That started a friendship with Joe and some interesting jobs to procure 'kit' for the IMT (a complete Puckle Gun for instance....). I started asking old friends here in the UK where the rifles had gone as Sidem closed down here in the UK (Bridgewater, Somerset) in 1995 shortly after the founder Jacques Michault passed away. I was sent on a wild goose chase when I was given some 'duff gen' (bad information) from an old contact and it was only this year around May/June I found out an old acquaintance had brokered a deal to sell both rifles to a US collector in 1995/6 for $5,000 FOR BOTH!!! Vic |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/22/2015 9:35:46 AM EDT
[#44]
As I understand it they were both in this collectors collection (I know who it was but will not disclose his name out of courtesy) I know he used to work for Colt and up until this year he kept them safe. Anyhow he decided to sell them (after all we never own firearms, we only are their custodians for a while), and the were sold for around $125K a piece!
I know Reed-Knight didn't buy them which surprised me but I guess the current owner will hopefully cherish them. Incidentally, I have been involved with some research recently into the design, development, and use of the AR10 rifle for an up and coming Collector Grade Publication book on said rifle. As part of that research I found out the Jacques Michault (the owner of Sidem International), who financed a lot of the development work Gene Stoner did PRIOR to the formation of Armalite, and who's company originally owned both #2 & #3 rifles wanted them donated to the Smithsonian Museum, but the Smithsonian declined them? Keep an eye out for the AR10 book, it should be out in early 2016. Cheers, Vic Tuff |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/22/2015 11:07:29 AM EDT
[#45]
Great info, thanks Vic!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/22/2015 1:24:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Awesome information. That's what makes the retro forum great.
As of a couple of months ago number 3 was at CC armory and for sale. At the Tulsa show it was paired with number 2. Does anyone know the trail from England to The current owners? |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/22/2015 1:34:52 PM EDT
[#47]
I'd like to see more pics
back i the 1990's I had business on the east coast, and visited the Springfield Armory historical museum, but didn't have a camera 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/22/2015 1:39:35 PM EDT
[#48]
I have a few Springfield pics on my phone.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/22/2015 10:06:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Guys,
#2 & #3 were at Sidem in the UK in their small collection room there from the mid-60's. When Jacques Michault passed away in 1995 they were offered to the Smithsonian but they declined the 'gift' (don't know why...). They were then sold via Greg Felton at Law Enforcement International here in the UK to a prominent Colt employee, John Keosayian. Earlier this year John decided to sell both rifles and Chad O'Connell at Chester County Armory sold them for him in September of this year. The gentleman who had them at the Tulsa show I guess was the buyer at $125,000 each rifle. It's interesting to note that both rifles are fully transferable and that in 20 years they increased in value from $5,000 for the pair to £250,000 for the pair... not a bad investment ;-) Larry Vickers of Vickers Tactical photographed both rifles for inclusion in a book he is producing and will be available next year. You can see a photograph of #3 on his Facebook page. Cheers Vic |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/23/2015 1:39:17 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guys, #2 & #3 were at Sidem in the UK in their small collection room there from the mid-60's. When Jacques Michault passed away in 1995 they were offered to the Smithsonian but they declined the 'gift' (don't know why...). They were then sold via Greg Felton at Law Enforcement International here in the UK to a prominent Colt employee, John Keosayian. Earlier this year John decided to sell both rifles and Chad O'Connell at Chester County Armory sold them for him in September of this year. The gentleman who had them at the Tulsa show I guess was the buyer at $125,000 each rifle. It's interesting to note that both rifles are fully transferable and that in 20 years they increased in value from $5,000 for the pair to £250,000 for the pair... not a bad investment ;-) Larry Vickers of Vickers Tactical photographed both rifles for inclusion in a book he is producing and will be available next year. You can see a photograph of #3 on his Facebook page. Cheers Vic Love this group, thank you sir! |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
