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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:18:33 PM EDT
My step dad passed away this past fall and was a big impact on my life. He died from service related illness. I'd like to build a rifle like he carried during his time in Vietnam. I'm still trying to find a picture of him with his rifle, but I found this in his belongings. Does this she'd enough light based on the serial number as to what I should be building?
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:26:12 PM EDT
[#1]
http://weaponsman.com/?p=15791
This site would have it as being a model 04, and for the Army, which doesn't make sense. If 04 is supposed to be a model 604, it would have been for the Air Force. What branch was he in? |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:27:54 PM EDT
[#2]
Army 1st Cavalry
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:29:21 PM EDT
[#3]
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/241681_.html
500,001-749,999
1966-1967 US Property marked XM16E1 Colt's and M16A1, both Colt Model 603. There are also a small number of US Air Force M16 Colt's Model 604 found in this serial number range. Serial numbers in this range were not run in order. M16A1’s have been observed with serial numbers as low as 604,505, and XM16E1’s have serial numbers as high as 741,12X. The paper says M16A1 with an April 1970 date yes? Sounds like it was probably an early M16A1 with a full fence lower, type D stock, and MPC barrel. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:29:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Edit: ^^^^^^^^^ see there, just like I thought..
hmmmmmm. Need to do a little more "digging" around. Some of the guys here are pretty sharp on serial #'s, I am not. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:30:13 PM EDT
[#5]
It does say on the DA Form 3122 that it is a 5.56mm M16A1.
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:34:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It does say on the DA Form 3122 that it is a 5.56mm M16A1. Yep look at the jibberish at the end. It says Rifle 5.56mm M16A1. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:45:31 PM EDT
[#7]
I wasn't sure as that was what I thought but someone told me base on the sn# it was a xm16e1. I'm not up to speed on all the early history.
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:47:20 PM EDT
[#8]
The National Stock Number (NSN) is for a M16A1
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:49:52 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The National Stock Number (NSN) is for a M16A1 Heh. I'd have to look something like that up. Good thing we have guys who know stuff like this off the top of their heads. 
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:51:23 PM EDT
[#10]
It was probably a mistake by someone in a hurry to do the turn-in (see checked box at top),
I'm thinking they left the first digit off the serial number which should have been a 4. If so, it would make it an A1 and put it in the correct time frame. The arms room wasn't concerned about the mistake as they had the rifle and the correct SN on their property book. The receipt didn't go any farther than the Soldier who turned it in. Though if it was me, I wouldn't have signed it without checking to make sure it was correct. If he was demobilizing and getting ready to leave country I can understand it happening. "Here's my rifle", "Sign Here" "Roger that, what time does the freedom bird leave?" Wpns Man |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:56:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Thanks guys. Now to start acquiring parts. I've got some NOS handguards with no cracks or chips I got from the local pd. They decided to modernize a bit with new style. Trying to talk them out of the grips and butt stocks now.
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Posted: 3/26/2015 8:01:17 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Heh. I'd have to look something like that up. Good thing we have guys who know stuff like this off the top of their heads. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The National Stock Number (NSN) is for a M16A1 Heh. I'd have to look something like that up. Good thing we have guys who know stuff like this off the top of their heads. 31 years of dealing with NSNs, and accounting for equipment. The NSN was as important as the Serial number. They both had to pair up during inventory. It was strange seeing 601s, 602s and 604s magically turn into M16A2s with a new NSN during the conversion program in the 80s and 90s. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 10:15:35 PM EDT
[#13]
Are the what a country kits worth buying or should I expect to piece one together?
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Posted: 3/26/2015 10:47:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are the what a country kits worth buying or should I expect to piece one together? These kits are all from USGI M16A1s minus the barrels and lower receivers. There is most likely a couple small parts you will need in addition to the kit. These kits are about the same as you will get from any other vendors. When it comes to a lower receiver, Nodak Spud has the best lower (NDS-16A1) for a M16A1 clone build. McKay Enterprises also offers an A1 lower in XM Grey. They have retooled their design are currently getting ready to produce correct A1 lowers. They had been marked the same as their A2 lowers, but that has been changed now. For a barrel, I would look into AR15Sport. They do have a correct 1:12 pencil barrel for the A1 builds. Good luck on your memorial build. I think it is a great idea. My father was issued a M1 Garand back in the late 1950s and never had a chance to experience the M16. He did later qualify on the M14 when it came into service. My fascination with the M16 came when I went to MCRD Parris Island in 1978. I was issued a M16A1 for the first time. Several years ago, I built a clone to commemorate that first M16 I shot. It has an early USGI M16A1 upper assembly. 
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Posted: 3/26/2015 10:54:30 PM EDT
[#15]
Taging in, I love memorial threads .
OP you have come to the right place, we have some Smart guys who can get you lined out. |
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Posted: 4/24/2015 10:33:36 PM EDT
[#16]
What's the best route to go for an authentic lower with accurate engravings? I was thinking Nodak and send it off to Orion Arms for the Colt engravings. What would the correct engravings be?
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Posted: 4/25/2015 2:11:31 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's the best route to go for an authentic lower with accurate engravings? I was thinking Nodak and send it off to Orion Arms for the Colt engravings. What would the correct engravings be? The most correct would be to use an 80% lower from NoDak Spud and have replica markings added all the way down to the SN. Member braceman does excellent engraving but he does not have an FFL so he can only work on 80% lowers. Other than that the NDS-16A1 also from NoDak is the best option, I'm not sure who to have those engraved by. |
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Posted: 4/25/2015 2:45:33 AM EDT
[#18]
Best of luck in your memorial build, currently building my own memorial build for myself on an OEF PSA lower. But main difference is I'm adding a few upgrades I wish I had downrange
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Posted: 4/25/2015 6:36:04 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The most correct would be to use an 80% lower from NoDak Spud and have replica markings added all the way down to the SN. Member braceman does excellent engraving but he does not have an FFL so he can only work on 80% lowers. Other than that the NDS-16A1 also from NoDak is the best option, I'm not sure who to have those engraved by. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What's the best route to go for an authentic lower with accurate engravings? I was thinking Nodak and send it off to Orion Arms for the Colt engravings. What would the correct engravings be? The most correct would be to use an 80% lower from NoDak Spud and have replica markings added all the way down to the SN. Member braceman does excellent engraving but he does not have an FFL so he can only work on 80% lowers. Other than that the NDS-16A1 also from NoDak is the best option, I'm not sure who to have those engraved by. What do you do about anodizing it then for an 80%. I'd really like to have the serial number added of what my step dad carried but I've got a little concern having all those colt markings and serial number with nothing but the missing autosear pin hole to distinguish it. I'm sure there's been discussion on here about that? |
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Posted: 4/25/2015 9:22:27 AM EDT
[#20]
I wouldn't be too concerned with that, after all it's going to say COLT AR-15, predominantly, and everyone knows what they are. When & if an LEO ever had to run the serial# he would call it in as a Colt AR15 and it would come back clean. They only call the numbers in to see if has been reported stolen. I guess, technically there may be some level of © infringement on Colt, but the odds of that being persued are slim. The people who get in trouble for this are the fake Rolex & Gucci guys in NYC, because they are selling the stuff for a profit.
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Posted: 4/25/2015 7:02:33 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was probably a mistake by someone in a hurry to do the turn-in (see checked box at top), I'm thinking they left the first digit off the serial number which should have been a 4. If so, it would make it an A1 and put it in the correct time frame. Wpns Man If that was the case the serial number would have been 4524187. I think the six digits on the form are more likely correct. As for most accurate lower, Nodak 80% lower engraved by Braceman as stated above you can get your fathers serial #, never heard of any legal problems, next would be Nodak NDS16-A1 engraved by Ident or Orion but it will still have Nodak info on it as well as Colt and not you fathers number. Last I heard, about a 5 month wait for a NDS16A1, may be less now. |
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Posted: 4/25/2015 7:08:04 PM EDT
[#22]
Check the stickies at the top of this forum. It will answer a lot of questions about proper parts and markings.
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Posted: 4/25/2015 10:36:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If that was the case the serial number would have been 4524187. I think the six digits on the form are more likely correct. As for most accurate lower, Nodak 80% lower engraved by Braceman as stated above you can get your fathers serial #, never heard of any legal problems, next would be Nodak NDS16-A1 engraved by Ident or Orion but it will still have Nodak info on it as well as Colt and not you fathers number. Last I heard, about a 5 month wait for a NDS16A1, may be less now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It was probably a mistake by someone in a hurry to do the turn-in (see checked box at top), I'm thinking they left the first digit off the serial number which should have been a 4. If so, it would make it an A1 and put it in the correct time frame. Wpns Man If that was the case the serial number would have been 4524187. I think the six digits on the form are more likely correct. As for most accurate lower, Nodak 80% lower engraved by Braceman as stated above you can get your fathers serial #, never heard of any legal problems, next would be Nodak NDS16-A1 engraved by Ident or Orion but it will still have Nodak info on it as well as Colt and not you fathers number. Last I heard, about a 5 month wait for a NDS16A1, may be less now. I'm really curious on which rifle he actually turned in now. Whether it was in fact an a1 and if so, if the serial number is missing a 4 at the begining. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 8:31:24 PM EDT
[#24]
Since 4,52x,xxx would have been made around 1970 or later and this rifle was turned in early April 1970 I would think the six digits listed are probably correct.
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Posted: 4/27/2015 10:16:03 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Check the stickies at the top of this forum. It will answer a lot of questions about proper parts and markings. I believe this to be the case. The 1st Cav deployed to Vietnam in 1965, and thus had early XM16E1s. Over time, those rifle would be field repaired / upgraded, so by 1970 would very likely be sporting birdcage flash suppressors, and possibly chrome chamber or lined barrels. the lowers and uppers still being XMs. Soldiers rotated in and out of the units, but the weapons stayed, pending issues that would require repair not authorized at the unit level. I'd suggest the XM approach with an "updated" barrel would be the closest approximation. |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 7:31:59 PM EDT
[#26]
Damn, just completed the A1 other than lower. Looks like it's time to read up on the XM and sell things to start another build.
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Posted: 4/27/2015 8:41:36 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe this to be the case. The 1st Cav deployed to Vietnam in 1965, and thus had early XM16E1s. Over time, those rifle would be field repaired / upgraded, so by 1970 would very likely be sporting birdcage flash suppressors, and possibly chrome chamber or lined barrels. the lowers and uppers still being XMs. Soldiers rotated in and out of the units, but the weapons stayed, pending issues that would require repair not authorized at the unit level. I'd suggest the XM approach with an "updated" barrel would be the closest approximation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Check the stickies at the top of this forum. It will answer a lot of questions about proper parts and markings. I believe this to be the case. The 1st Cav deployed to Vietnam in 1965, and thus had early XM16E1s. Over time, those rifle would be field repaired / upgraded, so by 1970 would very likely be sporting birdcage flash suppressors, and possibly chrome chamber or lined barrels. the lowers and uppers still being XMs. Soldiers rotated in and out of the units, but the weapons stayed, pending issues that would require repair not authorized at the unit level. I'd suggest the XM approach with an "updated" barrel would be the closest approximation. That would make since if it was a 603, but the site has it as a 604. |
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Posted: 4/27/2015 10:44:23 PM EDT
[#28]
That site has it as 604 but also says they were 604's for the Army. Sounds like an error. The NSN matches up with a 603, either a XM16E1 or M16A1, and it was logged in as an M16A1, so I would still think 603 most likely.
https://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/jtrevith/FSN-NSN-LSN_Table_Code.html |
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Posted: 4/28/2015 9:50:41 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That site has it as 604 but also says they were 604's for the Army. Sounds like an error. The NSN matches up with a 603, either a XM16E1 or M16A1, and it was logged in as an M16A1, so I would still think 603 most likely. https://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/jtrevith/FSN-NSN-LSN_Table_Code.html I think this is the case. IIRC, the sequence of events is the contract for the 5000 project AGILE guns, then adoption by the AF as the M16, then the first Army contract which added the forward assist as a requirement for the Army. As there was always difficulty to produce the number of weapons demanded, the first M16E1s probably shared production lines with AF M16s until Colt could ramp up some more. |
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