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Posted: 2/23/2015 1:33:36 AM EDT
[#1]
Took more room in a vest. and was harder to store and remove.
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Posted: 2/23/2015 1:56:45 AM EDT
[#2]
Constant curve magazines would not fit in the magazine wells of some existing M16s. The front of the magazine well in particular is what caused the problem, and required the compromised 30rd mag which was curved below the mag well.
See page 236 of TBR for more info. |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 2:00:23 AM EDT
[#3]
As I recall from "The Black Rifle" the problem was quality control on the mag well. When they started looking at making 30 round mags they discovered that a bunch of rifles had mag wells that would not work with fully curved 30 rnd mags, so the solution is the 30 rnd magazines that we know and love today. This is a quick and dirty explanation of what I remember.
Edit: answered while I was writing |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 2:58:24 AM EDT
[#4]
Magpul 30s are constant-curve internally
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Posted: 2/23/2015 9:22:26 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Magpul 30s are constant-curve internally We don't speak of those here. 
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Posted: 2/23/2015 1:49:48 PM EDT
[#6]
Thanks guys, makes sense. Recall seeing them with the dark green followers on the tables
back in the day, they were of course always more than brand new Colts or Okay's and was advised against getting one (from a cost / benefit perspective) however, looking back wish I got one just to have. Ah well, atleast I have plenty of aluminum follower 20's. |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 2:28:04 PM EDT
[#7]
A constant curve has eluded my collection so far as well, I'd sure like to find one!
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Posted: 2/23/2015 3:33:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks guys, makes sense. Recall seeing them with the dark green followers on the tables back in the day, they were of course always more than brand new Colts or Okay's and was advised against getting one (from a cost / benefit perspective) however, looking back wish I got one just to have. Ah well, atleast I have plenty of aluminum follower 20's. Constant curve mags actually have their own unique stamped steel follower. The first production of the current style mag has the emerald green follower with white part number. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:56:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Back in the early '90's I actually met Gene Stoner. He was a keynote speaker at California State University Sacramento, and a friend of mine was in the engineering program at the time and got me an invite. Finally the subject of the 30 round magazine came up and Gene let the fur fly...He was really pissed about that damn 30 round magazine, hated the idea from day one and NEVER got on board.
It was also interesting that he really didn't care for the SCHV idea in the first place, thought it was a side show at best. He said he was surprised when it became the main event. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 1:20:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Back in the early '90's I actually met Gene Stoner. He was a keynote speaker at California State University Sacramento, and a friend of mine was in the engineering program at the time and got me an invite. Finally the subject of the 30 round magazine came up and Gene let the fur fly...He was really pissed about that damn 30 round magazine, hated the idea from day one and NEVER got on board. It was also interesting that he really didn't care for the SCHV idea in the first place, thought it was a side show at best. He said he was surprised when it became the main event. SCHV???? Am I having a senior moment or I have I not heard of SCHV before? |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 1:21:27 PM EDT
[#11]
SCHV = Small Caliber High Veloicity
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Posted: 2/24/2015 1:29:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SCHV = Small Caliber High Veloicity LOL.....senior moment. With the thread being about CC magazines I was trying to connect schv with something magazine related. Thanks for clearing that up. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 2:07:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Back in the early '90's I actually met Gene Stoner. He was a keynote speaker at California State University Sacramento, and a friend of mine was in the engineering program at the time and got me an invite. Finally the subject of the 30 round magazine came up and Gene let the fur fly...He was really pissed about that damn 30 round magazine, hated the idea from day one and NEVER got on board. It was also interesting that he really didn't care for the SCHV idea in the first place, thought it was a side show at best. He said he was surprised when it became the main event. Awesome story man!! |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 2:33:23 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Awesome story man!! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Back in the early '90's I actually met Gene Stoner. He was a keynote speaker at California State University Sacramento, and a friend of mine was in the engineering program at the time and got me an invite. Finally the subject of the 30 round magazine came up and Gene let the fur fly...He was really pissed about that damn 30 round magazine, hated the idea from day one and NEVER got on board. It was also interesting that he really didn't care for the SCHV idea in the first place, thought it was a side show at best. He said he was surprised when it became the main event. Awesome story man!! Yes Indeed. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 2:45:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Back in the early '90's I actually met Gene Stoner. He was a keynote speaker at California State University Sacramento, and a friend of mine was in the engineering program at the time and got me an invite. Finally the subject of the 30 round magazine came up and Gene let the fur fly...He was really pissed about that damn 30 round magazine, hated the idea from day one and NEVER got on board. It was also interesting that he really didn't care for the SCHV idea in the first place, thought it was a side show at best. He said he was surprised when it became the main event. fantastic, must have been a great talk! |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 3:55:26 PM EDT
[#16]
I think it was the '95 fall shoot at KC when Carlos Hathcock, Stoner, and Reed Knight were all in attendance. Most memorable shoot of all for me. Carlos was especially approachable. Talked with him for a bit......OK.......listened to him for a bit, received his number, and had a couple conversations with him over the next couple years prior to his passing. All 3 men are icons of our period of time/interests.
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Posted: 2/25/2015 7:08:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Some of Stoner's attitude is alluded to in TBR.....you have to be wondering what went through his mind in the later years of his life with all the on going AR development... Especially with regards to ammo capability. Too bad he was gone (AFAIK) before Mk262 came onboard. As far as the magazine issue, I don't see why Stoner would have a prolem with thirty rounders. I can see how Colt's lack of concern with regards to mag well dimensions would ignite the sometimes cantankerous Stoner!
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Posted: 2/25/2015 7:54:20 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As I recall from "The Black Rifle" the problem was quality control on the mag well. When they started looking at making 30 round mags they discovered that a bunch of rifles had mag wells that would not work with fully curved 30 rnd mags, so the solution is the 30 rnd magazines that we know and love today. This is a quick and dirty explanation of what I remember. Edit: answered while I was writing Not so much quality control as the fact there was not tight dimensional specifications for the magwell. All the magwells met the spec and quality control, it just was that the magwells were allowed to have a lot of variation in their size! |
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Posted: 2/26/2015 1:26:03 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some of Stoner's attitude is alluded to in TBR.....you have to be wondering what went through his mind in the later years of his life with all the on going AR development... Especially with regards to ammo capability. Too bad he was gone (AFAIK) before Mk262 came onboard. As far as the magazine issue, I don't see why Stoner would have a prolem with thirty rounders. I can see how Colt's lack of concern with regards to mag well dimensions would ignite the sometimes cantankerous Stoner! We have managed to make it work pretty well, but the design is fundamentally flawed. |
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Posted: 2/26/2015 3:34:56 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well some things that pissed him off were...He felt the 20 round magazine was absolutely perfect in function, balance, and the fact it was no hindrance to getting prone and low. Then he went on about how the straight then curved magazine design had already been a failure with the M1/M2 Carbine, and how much less reliable they were. And at that time he said the 30 rounder was still problematic; and he's right. Seriously, how many iterations of the followers can there be? We have managed to make it work pretty well, but the design is fundamentally flawed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Some of Stoner's attitude is alluded to in TBR.....you have to be wondering what went through his mind in the later years of his life with all the on going AR development... Especially with regards to ammo capability. Too bad he was gone (AFAIK) before Mk262 came onboard. As far as the magazine issue, I don't see why Stoner would have a prolem with thirty rounders. I can see how Colt's lack of concern with regards to mag well dimensions would ignite the sometimes cantankerous Stoner! We have managed to make it work pretty well, but the design is fundamentally flawed. I'm nowhere near an engineer, but I have to wonder if a straight-body 25 round magazine, sort of a slightly scaled-up 20rd, would have been an effective compromise between increased capacity and low profile. Then again, I'm the kind of bozo who thinks the M1 Carbine should have been issued with 20rd magazines rather than 15... 
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Posted: 2/26/2015 8:23:22 AM EDT
[#21]
They started with a straight 25 round magazine. It was decreased to 20 some time after the first military trials in the late 50's. I don't know for sure why they ditched it.
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Posted: 2/26/2015 8:30:49 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They started with a straight 25 round magazine. It was decreased to 20 some time after the first military trials in the late 50's. I don't know for sure why they ditched it. I'll bet it had something to do with 10 round stripper clips. |
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Posted: 2/26/2015 10:40:18 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think it was the '95 fall shoot at KC when Carlos Hathcock, Stoner, and Reed Knight were all in attendance. Most memorable shoot of all for me. Carlos was especially approachable. Talked with him for a bit......OK.......listened to him for a bit, received his number, and had a couple conversations with him over the next couple years prior to his passing. All 3 men are icons of our period of time/interests. I snaffled this gem from an article in Precision Shooting magazine (R.I.P.) “Gunny then gave us all a small piece of paper which he called his “Bible”. It consists of a credit card sized list of instructions for proper marksmanship. The tips were simply put as follows: “Body Alignment – Natural Point Of Aim Firm Hand Shake Grip Firm In Shoulder Eye Relief – Spot Weld – No Shadow Stare At Crosshairs – Target Is A Blur Slow Steady Pressure On Trigger To Rear Normal Respiratory Pause Follow Thru “The Gunny signed mine and I had it laminated. He claimed his Virginia Beach snipers were required to display it on request or suffer many pushups for failure to do so. I have carried mine every day since the day he gave it to me.” Brian K. Sain, writing in the June 2001 issue of Precision Shooting magazine, about a class he attended taught by Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock II (USMC, Ret.). |
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Posted: 3/1/2015 4:11:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I snaffled this gem from an article in Precision Shooting magazine (R.I.P.) “Gunny then gave us all a small piece of paper which he called his “Bible”. It consists of a credit card sized list of instructions for proper marksmanship. The tips were simply put as follows: “Body Alignment – Natural Point Of Aim Firm Hand Shake Grip Firm In Shoulder Eye Relief – Spot Weld – No Shadow Stare At Crosshairs – Target Is A Blur Slow Steady Pressure On Trigger To Rear Normal Respiratory Pause Follow Thru “The Gunny signed mine and I had it laminated. He claimed his Virginia Beach snipers were required to display it on request or suffer many pushups for failure to do so. I have carried mine every day since the day he gave it to me.” Brian K. Sain, writing in the June 2001 issue of Precision Shooting magazine, about a class he attended taught by Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock II (USMC, Ret.). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think it was the '95 fall shoot at KC when Carlos Hathcock, Stoner, and Reed Knight were all in attendance. Most memorable shoot of all for me. Carlos was especially approachable. Talked with him for a bit......OK.......listened to him for a bit, received his number, and had a couple conversations with him over the next couple years prior to his passing. All 3 men are icons of our period of time/interests. I snaffled this gem from an article in Precision Shooting magazine (R.I.P.) “Gunny then gave us all a small piece of paper which he called his “Bible”. It consists of a credit card sized list of instructions for proper marksmanship. The tips were simply put as follows: “Body Alignment – Natural Point Of Aim Firm Hand Shake Grip Firm In Shoulder Eye Relief – Spot Weld – No Shadow Stare At Crosshairs – Target Is A Blur Slow Steady Pressure On Trigger To Rear Normal Respiratory Pause Follow Thru “The Gunny signed mine and I had it laminated. He claimed his Virginia Beach snipers were required to display it on request or suffer many pushups for failure to do so. I have carried mine every day since the day he gave it to me.” Brian K. Sain, writing in the June 2001 issue of Precision Shooting magazine, about a class he attended taught by Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock II (USMC, Ret.). I have read the book about Gunny Hathcock, and understand full well what an incredible man he was. Simply astounding. I've always focused on the target, and made the crosshairs be blurry...it never occurred to me to do it the other way around. I am going to try it his way next time I am at the range. Thank you for posting that. |
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Posted: 3/1/2015 4:18:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll bet it had something to do with 10 round stripper clips. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They started with a straight 25 round magazine. It was decreased to 20 some time after the first military trials in the late 50's. I don't know for sure why they ditched it. I'll bet it had something to do with 10 round stripper clips. Didn't stop them from issuing M1 Carbines with 15 round magazines, and 10 round stripper clips. |
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Posted: 3/1/2015 7:39:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have read the book about Gunny Hathcock, and understand full well what an incredible man he was. Simply astounding. I've always focused on the target, and made the crosshairs be blurry...it never occurred to me to do it the other way around. I am going to try it his way next time I am at the range. Thank you for posting that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think it was the '95 fall shoot at KC when Carlos Hathcock, Stoner, and Reed Knight were all in attendance. Most memorable shoot of all for me. Carlos was especially approachable. Talked with him for a bit......OK.......listened to him for a bit, received his number, and had a couple conversations with him over the next couple years prior to his passing. All 3 men are icons of our period of time/interests. I snaffled this gem from an article in Precision Shooting magazine (R.I.P.) “Gunny then gave us all a small piece of paper which he called his “Bible”. It consists of a credit card sized list of instructions for proper marksmanship. The tips were simply put as follows: “Body Alignment – Natural Point Of Aim Firm Hand Shake Grip Firm In Shoulder Eye Relief – Spot Weld – No Shadow Stare At Crosshairs – Target Is A Blur Slow Steady Pressure On Trigger To Rear Normal Respiratory Pause Follow Thru “The Gunny signed mine and I had it laminated. He claimed his Virginia Beach snipers were required to display it on request or suffer many pushups for failure to do so. I have carried mine every day since the day he gave it to me.” Brian K. Sain, writing in the June 2001 issue of Precision Shooting magazine, about a class he attended taught by Gunnery Sergeant Carlos N. Hathcock II (USMC, Ret.). I have read the book about Gunny Hathcock, and understand full well what an incredible man he was. Simply astounding. I've always focused on the target, and made the crosshairs be blurry...it never occurred to me to do it the other way around. I am going to try it his way next time I am at the range. Thank you for posting that. I would never, ever want to give anybody the impression I was fit to currently occupy any range that Gunny Hathcock once did, but I received the following advice from a couple of exceedingly good shooters, about crosshairs/sights/sight picture: a. Aim small, miss small. b. Intense front sight focus. and, believe that advice relative to Gunny Hathcock's direction about staring at the crosshairs. You might cogitate on those a bit while you're at it. |
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