Mystery AR-15 - help me identify it!

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Mystery AR-15 - help me identify it!

Posted: 1/24/2015 7:11:21 PM EDT

I have some back story for this rifle, but I want to hold off on sharing it so I don't inadvertently influence the information that might be shared. As far as I can tell, this is a pre-A1 AR (no forward assist, slab-side lower receiver, solid stock, etc), but the total lack of markings, serial number, etc are very interesting. I have modified two of the photos as they contained hand-engraved details relating to the previous owner. Thanks for your help!

http://imgur.com/a/Ysw16

Posted: 1/24/2015 7:15:34 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
I have some back story for this rifle, but I want to hold off on sharing it so I don't inadvertently influence the information that might be shared. As far as I can tell, this is a pre-A1 AR (no forward assist, slab-side lower receiver, solid stock, etc), but the total lack of markings, serial number, etc are very interesting. I have modified two of the photos as they contained hand-engraved details relating to the previous owner. Thanks for your help!

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Posted: 1/24/2015 7:22:46 PM EDT

[#2]

It seems to have an M16 hammer in it

p.s. hotlink for you:

link

ON second look it appears to be an SP1 upper and lower...commercial, looking at the screw style large front takedown pin. The lack of any markings is still unusual though and I can't imagine the M16 hammer is original to the lower if it is an SP1.

Posted: 1/24/2015 7:36:18 PM EDT

[#3]

Its an early Colt SP1, the square forge upper receiver and MVP barrel indicate it was made between 1964 and 1966.

Worth some scratch if its all legal.

And no, the M16 hammer is not original. Colt didnt go to great lengths to prohibit full auto conversions and then ship it with a full auto hammer.

If your screen name refers to Macomb, IL I could take a look at in in person if you want.

Posted: 1/24/2015 7:37:49 PM EDT

[#4]

Model 603 or later slab side lower. Possible that upper is from an earlier year though.

Edit: going with complete 603 around '64-'66.

Posted: 1/24/2015 7:43:29 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
Model 603 or later slab side lower. Possible that upper is from an earlier year though.

Edit: going with complete 603 around '64-'66.

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I don't think so you'd have to explain the take down pin then

Posted: 1/24/2015 7:49:30 PM EDT

[#6]

It appears to have a Edgewater buffer no auto sear but the selector is in the "AUTO" position.....

Posted: 1/24/2015 7:49:41 PM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:

I don't think so you'd have to explain the take down pin then

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Model 603 or later slab side lower. Possible that upper is from an earlier year though.

Edit: going with complete 603 around '64-'66.

I don't think so you'd have to explain the take down pin then

Forging years was my guess. Got no idea as to why there are no roll marks or serial numbers, but I suppose the take down goes along with that. Did someone inside Colt hand out a raw forging set as a gift which was later built into a rifle?

Posted: 1/24/2015 8:11:35 PM EDT

[#8]

The whole mystery is in the lower. Built from parts apparently, and probably during early to mid 60's. But the slab side lower with no selector stops pretty much means Colt.

Is it just me or does that large pivot pin hole in the lower and that big pin in the upper look REALLY big?

Posted: 1/24/2015 8:15:40 PM EDT

[#9]

To be honest, it looks like a nice bunch of parts at best......

The only reason people want SP1's is because they have the Prancing Pony and Hartford,CA on the rollmark......completely unmarked and you basically have nothing more than a home-finished 80% with no makers ID and a large diameter front pin.....throw in a few M16 FCG components (hammer and selector are enough), and you've got an NFA violation as well.....
Is this yours????...are you buying????....selling????

Posted: 1/24/2015 8:25:05 PM EDT

[#10]

Upper is good but maybe a 80% lower finished as a slab side lower?

Posted: 1/24/2015 8:27:50 PM EDT

[#11]

I have no idea.

I know pre 68 didn't need serial numbers, but I've never seen a Colt SP1 without one.

I'll go with home built lower by a good machinist or clandestine gun for a Cuban invasion.

Posted: 1/24/2015 8:30:12 PM EDT

[#12]

It's probably a Colt "LUNCHBOX SPECIAL". Lots of unmarked or partially marked 1911 parts and pieces used to make it out of the factory to be assembled at home , probably more than a few ARs as well.

Posted: 1/24/2015 8:40:45 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
Is it just me or does that large pivot pin hole in the lower and that big pin in the upper look REALLY big?

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I was thinking the same thing.

Posted: 1/24/2015 8:50:27 PM EDT

[#14]

In the 80s, I saw several lowers where all markings were scrubbed off, maybe with a rotary file, then refinished. We actually did that to 3 PWA lowers to mock up prototypes of a commemorative GAU-5/A/A we were going to manufacture. It was engraved "US Ordnance, Sparks, NV" and had GAU-5/A/A and USAF marking on it also. We had a supply of 0% forgings we were going to use. Then Patrick Purdy shot up Stockton California and the ban was passed. Even though my manufacturer's license was in Reno, it killed the project...

There was an issue that arose with a silent partner, and all 3 prototype lowers "disappeared" mysteriously. Somehow, I was the one who lost money on the deal, and did not end up with one of the prototypes. All I ended up with was a display case....

Posted: 1/24/2015 10:07:55 PM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
It's probably a Colt "LUNCHBOX SPECIAL". Lots of unmarked or partially marked 1911 parts and pieces used to make it out of the factory to be assembled at home , probably more than a few ARs as well.

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This was my guess.

Posted: 1/24/2015 10:56:46 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
throw in a few M16 FCG components (hammer and selector are enough), and you've got an NFA violation as well.....

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Not necessarily Vill - owner of that lower may also be in possession of a registered drop-in auto-sear, in which case - that lower would be perfectly legal... at least here in Florida that is.

Posted: 1/24/2015 11:43:16 PM EDT

[#17]

Will be interested to hear what the OP says when he chimes back in

Posted: 1/24/2015 11:55:35 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:
To be honest, it looks like a nice bunch of parts at best......

The only reason people want SP1's is because they have the Prancing Pony and Hartford,CA on the rollmark......completely unmarked and you basically have nothing more than a home-finished 80% with no makers ID and a large diameter front pin.....throw in a few M16 FCG components (hammer and selector are enough), and you've got an NFA violation as well.....
Is this yours????...are you buying????....selling????

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Unless you have the sear, having a FA FCG in your AR isn't illegal. ill-advised but not illegal.

Posted: 1/25/2015 1:46:32 PM EDT

[#19]

Looks too good to be a 80% I bet it made it out of the colt factory like others have already said.

Posted: 1/25/2015 3:00:34 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
Looks too good to be a 80% I bet it made it out of the colt factory like others have already said.

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Whatever it is, it is not factory - The pin hole for the receiver extension is not in the correct location (doesn't intersect the receiver extension threads) - Rather it is located similar to that of an NDS receiver (which doesn't intersect the threads). As for it not looking like an 80%, there were a number of individuals in the past who were going around performing "CNC parties" - essentially traveling around with a CNC machine on a trailer letting individuals push the "go" button to mill out their own receivers. This practice though is no longer deemed to be legal according to the BATFE. So, could it be an 80%er?........possibly.

Posted: 1/25/2015 3:19:54 PM EDT

[#21]

Looks to have the raised plus on the mag well. Also has a black 601 sling. For now, I'm going with the lunch box colt forging finished at home in the late 60s. We will see what info the OP has to offer.

Posted: 1/25/2015 3:31:03 PM EDT

[#22]

Lack of serial show home job to me, and I wouldn't buy one without a serial on it.

Posted: 1/25/2015 3:37:24 PM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:

Whatever it is, it is not factory - The pin hole for the receiver extension is not in the correct location (doesn't intersect the receiver extension threads) - Rather it is located similar to that of an NDS receiver (which doesn't intersect the threads). As for it not looking like an 80%, there were a number of individuals in the past who were going around performing "CNC parties" - essentially traveling around with a CNC machine on a trailer letting individuals push the "go" button to mill out their own receivers. This practice though is no longer deemed to be legal according to the BATFE. So, could it be an 80%er?........possibly.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Looks too good to be a 80% I bet it made it out of the colt factory like others have already said.

Whatever it is, it is not factory - The pin hole for the receiver extension is not in the correct location (doesn't intersect the receiver extension threads) - Rather it is located similar to that of an NDS receiver (which doesn't intersect the threads). As for it not looking like an 80%, there were a number of individuals in the past who were going around performing "CNC parties" - essentially traveling around with a CNC machine on a trailer letting individuals push the "go" button to mill out their own receivers. This practice though is no longer deemed to be legal according to the BATFE. So, could it be an 80%er?........possibly.

Its hard to tell in the picture, the extension hole is a little low. one other thing is most 80% have the flashing removed this lower looks like it has it.

Posted: 1/25/2015 8:34:37 PM EDT

[#24]

A family member recently passed away and left a small collection of firearms behind - none of their immediate family knows anything about firearms so I offered to help figure out what they had. When I came across this, it was a real head-scratcher. Apparently one of the deceased's parents worked for Colt from the 1950s into the mid 70s - I suspected this was either a prototype or some sort unofficial project that was taken home, but wanted to see what people with some historical AR knowledge thought.

I appreciate the insights - keep 'em coming if you have anything new to share!

Posted: 1/25/2015 9:21:18 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:
A family member recently passed away and left a small collection of firearms behind - none of their immediate family knows anything about firearms so I offered to help figure out what they had. When I came across this, it was a real head-scratcher. Apparently one of the deceased's parents worked for Colt from the 1950s into the mid 70s - I suspected this was either a prototype or some sort unofficial project that was taken home, but wanted to see what people with some historical AR knowledge thought.

I appreciate the insights - keep 'em coming if you have anything new to share!

View Quote

Well.....everything else aside, it would be tough to sell with no markings what so ever.....and value is based for the most part on resaleability.....

Although it doesn't appear to be a prototype/experimental rifle, the only real way to document it's a Colt mfg. gun is to ask Colt....I'm not sure how they would reply to the inquiry "My uncle used to work for you, and stole this rifle off the line before it was rollmarked and serial numbered, and brought it home......can I get a factory letter stating it's rare?".....

Keep it....it's a damn nice looking "Retro" AR....just put in an AR-15 selector for peace of mind.....

Posted: 1/25/2015 9:54:18 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:

Not necessarily Vill - owner of that lower may also be in possession of a registered drop-in auto-sear, in which case - that lower would be perfectly legal... at least here in Florida that is.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
throw in a few M16 FCG components (hammer and selector are enough), and you've got an NFA violation as well.....

Not necessarily Vill - owner of that lower may also be in possession of a registered drop-in auto-sear, in which case - that lower would be perfectly legal... at least here in Florida that is.

In Illinoize?

I don't think so...

Hell, when I lived there you couldn't even handle a gun without showing your FOID.

Posted: 1/25/2015 10:15:00 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
Apparently one of the deceased's parents worked for Colt from the 1950s into the mid 70s -
I appreciate the insights - keep 'em coming if you have anything new to share!

View Quote

Well, that;s the lead you need to follow. Document that and you may be able to add some value to the no-rollmark rifle. Short of that, it remains more or less a curiosity.

It is a very interesting piece, and I really hope you can authenticate its history.

Posted: 1/26/2015 1:38:00 AM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:

In Illinoize?

I don't think so...

Hell, when I lived there you couldn't even handle a gun without showing your FOID.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
throw in a few M16 FCG components (hammer and selector are enough), and you've got an NFA violation as well.....

Not necessarily Vill - owner of that lower may also be in possession of a registered drop-in auto-sear, in which case - that lower would be perfectly legal... at least here in Florida that is.

In Illinoize?

I don't think so...

Hell, when I lived there you couldn't even handle a gun without showing your FOID.

Did the OP ever state he was actually in IL? ...Far as I know - up to this point he hasn't.