Originally Posted By threefiftynone: Originally Posted By ar15seeker: One of the many purposes of a firearm is for recreation.   That's what my favorite FFL told me. Me:  Hey, Bob, I shot something a couple of days ago.  It's kind of impractical, but it's a hell of a lot of fun.   Bob:  What was it? Me:  An AR15 pistol with a 7" barrel. Bob:  (goes off on a tangeant)  Two hundred years ago, guns were needed to hunt for food, so we didn't starve.  Shortly thereafter, folks needed guns to defend themselves from tyrants.  These days, we need them to protect ourselves from fools, and to just plain have fun with.  Here's a copy, signed in blue ink. Me:  Thanks.  Let me get (a few boxes of ammo and some other stuff). I need an upper.  I built one of the lowers with a carbine tube I butchered out of a Bushy pinned and glued non collapsible stock.   Fun.  It's what you have at the range.

threefiftynone,     just noticed the comment under your screen name...  " Chameleon Weaponry"

Do you plan on doing any refinishing, tweaking or any other customizing of your "soon to be" pistol?

-Jason

shullear -

I would like you to tell me how I destroyed an AR Rifle when I built my pistol from the ground up.  Since I built it from scratch there are no extra parts and as far as being practical goes, I can hit 8" steel plates at 75 meters as fast as anyone I know with their "real" SBR.  If that's not practical I don't know what is.

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining,
MadDog

Originally Posted By Kaliburz: Originally Posted By shullear: I still dont understand why someone would want to ruin their rifle by doing that to it. An ar pistol is a joke what is the point it seems worthless for any practical purpos. Please send me all the parts you guys are throwing away. Well, shullear, the Newbie..... simple. BECAUSE WE CAN! After 10 years of the Govt and their "greater good" telling us that they know what is good for us, we will do what we wish- now that it is 'legal' once more.  The ban expired, allowing people to make them again.  All the ban did was inflate prices of what they "banned". Practical- maybe, maybe not.... but there are other things out there in the world that are not practical. Look at it at a celebration of "freedom"..... Edit- PS- they're pistols, NOT rifles.

Damn ARFCOM.....


I'v got the bug for this now, I'm curious and not meaning to hijack the thread, how is this legal. I would think this is a SBR or at the very least an AOW.    Clarification please

They are legal, because they fit into these simple and easy to remember  categories.

1. its NOT an SBR. -----NO stock.
2. its NOT a Rifle ----- NO Stock, NO forward grip,
3. its NOT a AOW ----- NO forward grip.
4. Lower must be registered as a "Pistol" lower from the factory, and transfered as such. (thanks MadDogDan)


just remember those simple rules, and  you should be fine!!

p.s. if I forgot anything... feel free to add to the list. (and if you want clarification, I can send you to ATF laws that will point this out)

-Jason

oh I forgot to add..

If you add any of those items, then you will probably break a law somewhere...

for instance:

1. if you add a stock ---- SBR
2. if you add a forward grip --- AOW

but!!!

if you add a 16" or longer barrel, THEN you can add a stock to LEGALLY make it into a rifle.

"once a rifle, NEVER a pistol", but if it started as a pistol, then it can be a rifle or a pistol as long as you put a 16" barrel on it BEFORE you put a stock on it. (to avoid the SBR classification)

man, I hope I havent confused you at all.

-Jason

Noner -

A fourth point: The lower must be shipped from the manufacturer as a "virgin" lower (meaning it never had a stock attached) and to be on the safe side you can have your FFL declare it a "Pistol" lower on line 27, Section D of the 4473 form.

MadDog

Thanks Noner and MadDogDan. Hopefully posting my pics soon.........as I get more money

and the addiction keeps growing.  

Originally Posted By shullear:
I still dont understand why someone would want to ruin their rifle by doing that to it. An ar pistol is a joke what is the point it seems worthless for any practical purpos. Please send me all the parts you guys are throwing away.

Yes, I have been reading the posts. Yes, I totally understand why some people are totally against ANY 7.5" barreled AR15. Yes, the 5.56 round was never intended to be shot from such a short barrel. Practical? Well, that all depends on your definition of practical.  Worthless? Hardly.

I got to go shooting this afternoon. I took 2 rifles, my 10/22 and my newest aquisition: A 7.5" Barreled AR15 upper with a fake surpressor fixed to it bringing the overall length to 16" on the nose. I would have shot the rifle earlier in the week, but I didn't have the time to solder the surpressor on till last night.

Now I have some REAL 1st hand experience with a short barreled AR15.

#1. ACCURACY.  I only shot the AR15 to 50 yards today. There was a slight drizzle and the way I see it, 50 yards would be around the farthest I would use this setup for anyway. Using Winchester 62. gr .223 caliber (White Box) rounds the little Carbine shot very nice groups. At least for free standing anyway. To tell you the truth, it shot no different than my 14.5" Barreled AR at that distance. That surprised me. After reading alot of the posts here I was expecting a compromise in accuracy. None here. the barrel has a 1:9 twist to it identical to the 14.5".

#2 Noise. Probably because of the fake surpressor mounted, noise wasn't noticably louder than my other AR's as well.

#3. Recoil. Again, no noticable difference.

#4. Muzzle Flash. Well...this is where there was a noticable difference. The blast was HUGE coming out of the barrel. LOL! GOOD FUN!!!

#5. Reliablity. Since the short barrel was set up on a CAR15 platform (Carbine buffer & Spring) the gun cycled flawlessly. No FTF issues, no ejection problems.

Sighting in the Aimpoint ML2 wasn't too hard. Not surprising since I borrowed it from my other AR.
So, I can truthfully say (now that I have actually shot a pistol length barreled AR) that they aren't 1/2 as bad as some people make them out to be. The package is light (compared to a full barreled Carbine) and well balanced. Not to mention really fun to shoot. I'm happy I got a chance to build this gun. It will serve as my plinker, and it looks EVIL!!!! I'm planning on trying out some lighter rounds through it next time, probably some 55 gr. and maybe some Winchester 45 gr HP. Why not any 5.56 rounds? Because I really don't know if this upper is chambered for it or not.  But so far so good. It's a good gun if you ask me.

Atreides can you post a picture of the fake suppressor that you attached to your upper?

I'm just really curious.

thanks!

-Jason

http://www.ssgknives.com/index.html?OtherSilencers

Hey Jason! The Fake Suressor I got is the one on the very bottom of the page I listed above. Yeah, $40.00 is a lot to spend for a tube, but it is built real nice, and has a finish on it that matches the AR barrel good too. Of course I had to touch up the welds with some high heat paint, but other than that it looks OK. The "Tube" as I call it measures a little over 8 1/2" long and is PERFECT for this type of build. I don't regret welding it on the 7.5" barrel for a second.

While it's not the same as having a cool looking AR15 pistol, this setup does look cool in its own right. I think because I'm using a carbine lower I haven't run into the feeding/gas related problems I hear so many people have with the 7.5" barrel.  I asked the experts on the board as well as checked with the PD if this setup would be OK, and got the thumbs up from both. Having the rear stock on it makes it really easy to shoot too, I would imagine alot easier than a AR with only the buffer tube fitted.

How about more pictures and less talk.

Hey I didnt mean to step on any toes. I may just have a differnt idea of what is fun. If I want to supprise everyone with a shockwave I would use my muzzle loader. If i want a big ball of fire I could go with a short barreled .44 mag. I guess I dont shoot for that. If I did I suppose I could shoot blanks. I have a hard enough time where I am from with people asking me why I need a gun that was designed for the military and why anyone would need to modify it for "tactical" use. After all I am not military or law enforcement. And just because it is now leagal doesnt mean that they cant outlaw it again if people abuse their rights. I apologize if this pisses anyone off that is not what I mean by it. This is a discussion forum not everyone is going to have the same ideas about everything. I am not saying that ar pistols are wrong they just give anti-gunners more ammo for their argument. I hope that you can all understand where I am coming from.

P.S.
I apologize for my last post it was a little harsh.

shullear -

Please explain how AR Pistols give anti-gunners more ammunition for their argument?  How is an AR with an overall length of 24" (7.5" pistol) instead of 35" (16" carbine) any more deadly or outragious for that matter?  How many drive by shootings have you heard of with AR rifles?  Do you honestly think a gang banger is going spend the time and money to build an AR Pistol so he can commit a drive-buy?  I am sure the antis don't think that either.  There are plenty of MAC's and KelTec's out there for that.

You did a pretty good job of cleaning up your previous statements but I think your parnoia is getting the better of you.

Just my .02
MadDog

Anti-gunner are anti-gunners. They don't like guns "just because". It has been shown (or call it proven) that you can try to disprove their points or use counter logic on an anti-gunner, they will always (most likely) break down and have an "emotional outburst" when you disprove their points.  We could still be using muzzle loaders and they STILL would be anti gun

Well, I also think the more EVIL a gun looks, the more the anti-gunners hate 'em, and what's more Evil looking than a short barreled AR15? A flintlock is just as deadly as any modern firearm, do you think the anti-gun weenies like it any more than a pistol?

Shullear,  NOT all guns have to be set up for lethal capability, but I think we all can agree that ALL guns are CAPABLE of being lethal in certain situations.  The AR15 may not have many practical reasons for existance as you say, but it is FAR from worthless.  Some people have these big dollar target rifles that have no other purpose but to shoot at paper. They are hardly recognisable as guns sometimes. Are those guns any less valuable than a "normal" .22 bolt action rifle? They may be worthless for combat, but for punching X's all day they are priceless.

Yeah, the AWB is dead, yet there may be far harsher laws waiting for us in the near future. That's a given. So, exactly how is building something that wasn't legal before have anything to do with ABUSE? I built MY latest AR15 because I could. Could I have done it while the ban was on? Sure I could have, but it never crossed my mind because at the time it was ILLEGAL. (That and it would have cost me 10 times and much! LOL!) I don't see what I have done as an abuse of my rights, on the contrary I think of it as excercising them.

Have you shot an AR pistol? Or a SBR? Well let me tell you, iy isn't the same as shooting a muzzle loader or .44 mag. There's a whole different "feel" to it, it is in fact a totally different EXPERIENCE.
These things are fun to shoot. So what, are the words FUN & FIREARMS not politically correct when used together? I really don't give a damn. Shooting guns IS FUN for me.

You are right of course about other people having different views here, and yes, everyone has the right to their opinion. It's OK to stand behind your beliefs, in fact, that's how things SHOULD be. But when you start out blasting other peoples opinion, don't expect to NOT get responses like you have.

Okay Guys,  I've followed this thread from the beginning and now I want only one question answered:

Who's going to step up and feed me this month!

I just ordered two lowers and an assortment of "upper-stuff" to build a few of these.  I'm tired of drooling all over my keyboard!!!  STOP MAKING ME BUY THIS STUFF!!!!!!!

Check out the new Carbon 15 pistols at www.bushmaster.com

hmmm.  I like the recent discussion in this thread...it should have a thread of its own.  Who has more pictures?  Is anyone else waiting on ordered parts to complete thier pistol?

shullear - Please explain how AR Pistols give anti-gunners more ammunition for their argument? How is an AR with an overall length of 24" (7.5" pistol) instead of 35" (16" carbine) any more deadly or outragious for that matter?

Ok, I'll take a stab at that:

I agree that "evil" looking guns are more likely to be vigorously hated by anti-gunners.  An AR-15 pistol is more outragious ("evil") than a lot of (but not all) AR rifles/carbines.  Show an AR-15 pistol to a non-gunner and your going to make a big impression (maybe not a good one).  And popular public opinion does make a difference in determining what is socially acceptable (i.e. laws).

For me, that means guns like an AR-15s (all types) require a higher level of responsibility.  An AR pistol requires a reletively high level of care and discretion in ownership.  I feel I'm less likely to negitively impress someone sensitive about guns with my 30-30 Marlin than my (soon to be) AR pistol.  Conservatism certainly couldn't hurt in this matter.  Does that make sense?

MadDogDan, I am pro-gun rights through and through but it pays to understand the mindset of the anti-s.  I know from reading various posts of yours that your a thoughtful person, so I hope we can agree here.  If I'm wrong LMK.

I can't wait to post pics of my new project.

Originally Posted By DocGun: Check out the new Carbon 15 pistols at www.bushmaster.com

Not really new, they were availabe the same day AWB sunset 4 months ago.

I'll be posting a pic by the end of this month  or middle of the next. Already got a pistol marked lower from Carrico'z and a car stock that I butchered up .I'm gonna get a bolt and carrier this weekend.Upper hopefully at the end of the month.

Less debate, more pictures.

Originally Posted By Tomp: Okay Guys,  I've followed this thread from the beginning and now I want only one question answered: Who's going to step up and feed me this month! I just ordered two lowers and an assortment of "upper-stuff" to build a few of these.  I'm tired of drooling all over my keyboard!!!  STOP MAKING ME BUY THIS STUFF!!!!!!!

No shiznit.  I'm in the same boat, Bushmaster Carbon 15 Type 21S two months ago, $200 for the BATF Form 1 shortly after, another Eotech last month and later this week a Bushmaster Carbon 15 Type 97S and some extra mags.  Now there's another $200 to the BATF, next month another Eotech and month after that a stock.  Now all of these MRP threads are making me want to get a 11.5" upper and I don't even like the thought of excessively heavy rail/ accessory covered guns!  It's wacky.

are there factory 11.5" bushmaster ar pistols, that are basically m4 commando clones without furniture?

Originally Posted By Noner: They are legal, because they fit into these simple and easy to remember  categories. 1. its NOT an SBR. -----NO stock. 2. its NOT a Rifle ----- NO Stock, NO forward grip, 3. its NOT a AOW ----- NO forward grip. 4. Lower must be registered as a "Pistol" lower from the factory, and transfered as such. (thanks MadDogDan) just remember those simple rules, and  you should be fine!! p.s. if I forgot anything... feel free to add to the list. (and if you want clarification, I can send you to ATF laws that will point this out) -Jason

Only thing that needs correcting is the registered as a pistol from the factory part, that is incorrect unless there are state laws you must deal with.  Federally you only need to be able to show that the lower has never been assembled with a stock or rifle barrel, ie stripped lower, from the factory to you.  If you buy a stripped lower from, say Ameetec, it is sold as a stripped lower, you buy it, it goes to your dealer, and it is transferred to you as a stripped lower.  On the 4473 it should say either "stripped lower" or "pistol lower" but you should not let the dealer list it as a stripped rifle lower or use the word rifle anywhere in the lower's description.  Remember that letter I posted from the ATFE saying this?  If not, here it is again:

Nope.  Gotta make your own.

MadDog

Originally Posted By M4Kid: Originally Posted By TriggerFish: www.z06vette.com/gallery/data/500/135OA93_max-med.jpg another angle That's one bad-ass toy.

+1

Originally Posted By Dawg180: Originally Posted By Matt_B: So now I'm getting really hot for one of these. This thread has me pretty convinced I should get one. Now the question boils down to bbl length. I've already raise the velocity question so I know what I'm getting there. I'm thinking about either a 7.5" or 10.25". The difference in velocity between the two (with XM193) is neglible thought, under the right conditions, the 10.25" might fragment a round within a short distance (15m?). I'm basing this upon the data from Bushmaster's site which list MV with Win 55gr from a 10" bbl to be around 2700 FPS and, as we know, between 2500 and 2700 FPS, the round may or may not fragment. Also, with a 10" bbl, you'll get a little less thunder when compared to a 7.5" bbl. In either case, I would put a Vortex on an AR pistol unless I need a handheld flamethrower (hmmmm...nah, don't need one). Now, considering this thing is supposed to be a pistol, a 10.25" bbl is pretty big for a pistol IMHO but, that extra weight would help with recoil a wee bit. Conversely, a 7.5" bbl makes the pistol more compact. I mean, come on, it's a pistol, right? I'm interested to hear what others have to say about this so post away. Matt, This is the exact same dilema I am in right now- I got the lower but have been going back and forth over low MV and concussion+flame of the 7.5"  vs. the heavier forend weight of the 10.5".  If you come up with a good argument either way let me know. I think right now I am leaning towards 7.5" as either way the abllistics are questionable.  Just get some good JHP ammo and that should solve some of the issue, not to mention that an AR pistol is really not an effective or practical weapon with EITHER barrel, so I might as well get the shorter one- looks cooler and all that, right?

That's the way I feel too. For me, an AR pistol with a 10.5" or greater bbl is no longer a pistol and negates the advantage of having a pistol.

But I still have to finish my 9mm AR and that's going to take 3 months or so due to back orders. A AR pistol is a ways off for me. :)

I thought this thread was about picutres, instead it seems to be a debate about the law.  Does anybody have any more pics?

Originally Posted By bushgun: I thought this thread was about picutres, instead it seems to be a debate about the law.  Does anybody have any more pics?

I know I know... I hate when this happens to my threads...

but not enough people post pictures of their Pistols for it to be "just" a picture thread, although thats what it was orignially intended to be.

-Jason

Click on image below for BIG pic!!!

Here's my 7.62 pistol, the upper was built by Tony Rumore @ Tromix, it is a DPMS LO PRO flattop upper with a DPMS bolt, 20 inch 7.62 DPMS barrel cut down, and threaded to 10.5 inches, Tony also added M4 cuts to the receiver, and barrel.
The pic was taken by Tony when the upper was being built, so it's not quite finnished in the pic, the front sight base is now secured by small allen screws, which look great, and are likely better than pins. It was decided to leave the end of the barrel unfinnished, as it looked good, as it came off the lathe, however it's still heavy under the handguards with the original finnish. I have since mounted the upper to a Pistol marked Mega, added a Hogue grip, and Colt M4 handguards, and it looks very nice.
I had originally planned on running it on AR47 lower so I chose the DPMS Lo Pro for the added receiver wall thickness, however I have aquired 4 G-tech and 1 DPMS frankenmag, so I might not get to it right away. I've actually had this type of setup before, but it was a Colt commando 11.5 inch 7.62 upper, I really prefered it over my 223 AR pistols, unfortunatley I eventually had to sell it, i've been wanting another ever since.  All the parts were bought off the equipment exchange, thanks to all the members who gave me the good deals, that made this project possible!

Thanks RPD for a pic.  Nice set up.  What type of buffer tube is that?

The tube is an RRA entry stock tube, I forgot to mention that.

First post here.  I posted over at another gun forum regarding NFA rules and whatnot... and someone linked me to this thread!

This post answered ALL of my questions, and then some.

I will now be looking to aquire all the parts to make my own AR pistol... 7.5" flat-top with a CAR recoil tube (for reliabilities' sake, and so i can affix the stock, ONLY when i switch out to my rifle upper

Well, I've been reading about these little pistols for a while now and went out and bought an Ameetec stripped lower (pistol reg. on the yellow form) so I could build one up instead of another rifle.  I'm just waiting on the M1S kit now.  I decided to forgoe all the low MV issues and go for the 7.62x39 build.  I must be a sucker for punishment though - pistol spring problems AND the 7.62 mag issues! h

Welcome to the club folks....

Has anyone used the ACE stocks pistol buffer kit?

www.aceltdusa.com/ar15.htm#ARP

Sweet gun, that's gotta be my next project or an SBR.

I got back and forth on which I want to build.

Talked with M1S and they said they were all out of their pistol buffers and were getting a new design in nex week.

I asked "what does it look like?" and the guy said "like nothing else on the market."

ooooooookay.

Anyone have any info on this?

Originally Posted By TACTICAL: Has anyone used the ACE stocks pistol buffer kit? www.aceltdusa.com/ar15.htm#ARP

THAT IS A KILLER DEAL!

I should have seen that, or maybe thats new..... either way, Thats the buffer that EVERYONE should be using. (based from a CAR buffer, so no FTF or other issues.)

The M1S buffer is tricky to get to work, and I was never successful on getting it to run 100% (or even 50%)

-Jason

tag

Originally Posted By MRW: The magik of the 5.56 is the velocity- nothing else will do much good if the velocity is under 2500 fps. JHP and SP only expand when the velocity is high enough, so either out of a barrel less than 10-11 inches is simply throwing money away.  The rounds will not expand. If you intend to use it as a defensive weapon, absolute bare minimum is a 10.5, and the effective range is under 50 yards. If you want a fun toy, go shorter.  But if you have to use it for real, you are just ice-picking your enemy, even at point blank range, and you'd be better off with a handgun- even a 9mm

And I completley agree with you which is why I haven't bought one yet. I don't want any "toy" guns so I may just end up not getting a "pistol" per say. I may just get the only thing I can to get around my state's draconian gun laws - an AR pistol with a 10.5" bbl. While it would not be an SBR, it would be much more compact that a carbine.

Originally Posted By Noner: Originally Posted By TACTICAL: Has anyone used the ACE stocks pistol buffer kit? www.aceltdusa.com/ar15.htm#ARP THAT IS A KILLER DEAL! I should have seen that, or maybe thats new..... either way, Thats the buffer that EVERYONE should be using. (based from a CAR buffer, so no FTF or other issues.) The M1S buffer is tricky to get to work, and I was never successful on getting it to run 100% (or even 50%) -Jason

Only thing I would worry about would be that it looks like the mounting lug for the butt plate is still there. Would that violate the able to convert to a rifle law?

AFAIK:

as long as you dont have a stock that will fit on the end, then you arent breaking any laws, or any "constructive intent laws" that the ATF likes to place on people..

thats why I sold my Entry stock shell as soon as I could.

-Jason

you could always run a drill bit through the end and take out the threads...

Bushmaster Buffer Update:

I called Jim Eden with Bushmaster and then talked with some of the reps at the SHOT show.  Jim had confirmed what was said in an earlier email to another AR15.com poster that the Carbon 15 Buffer System will work on a pistol with standard parts.  Because the buffer and spring telescope into the receiver, there are some compromises that must be made.  First, a standard carrier won't work, you'll either have to shorten yours or buy Bushmaster's.  Second, disassembly is more of a pain.  You'll have unscrew the buffer tube each time and remove the buffer before you can open the gun up.

After asking Bushmaster's Chief Engineer at the SHOT show, he disassembled a new Carbon 15 pistol and explained how it works.  First, there is shot in the buffer that surrounds the recoil spring.  This shot actually buffers the return cycle meaning no more bolt bounce that has plagued the Model 1 Sales version.  Secondly, if you cut your bolt back it LOOKS as if there will be about .100" of material left on the top so that the top will be closed, however the bottom of the bolt carrier will be open on AR-15 carriers.  It will look like the letter "C" at the rear end with the open part facing down on the gun. <-- This won't work like that.  The front of the buffer happens to need to be right at the rear of the standard bolt carriers cut.  This means you will, indeed, have a 'tuning fork' bolt.  I can't imagine this is much trouble, but I haven't cut mine yet.

I've ordered a 'kit' with the bolt carrier and another without.  I'm going to convert a Pistol I've already got with a CAR buffer and see how they work.  I'll have to drill and tap a hole for the 10/32 screw or stud.  The screw holds the end-cap on the receiver.  The end cap serves to keep the takedown pin detent and spring in place but it also dresses up the end of the receiver a bit.  When I get my parts next week, I'll post instructions on how far to cut back your bolt carrier if you decide to go that way.  Me??  I'd order one from Bushmaster and just sell the one you have on the EE.  But, then again, the Bushy Bolt Carrier doesn't have the notches for your forward assist... you decide.  It also makes the ejection port cover only useful with the bolt open.

Here's what you need:

#AZ15078 -- $7.95 -- Buffer Tube
#AZ15077 -- $.50 -- "O" Ring for Buffer Tube <-- not really needed.  Didn't work on Aluminum Receiver
#AZ15009 -- $16.95 -- Buffer
#AZ15012 -- $2.95 -- Buffer Spring
#AZ15267 -- $75.95 -- Bolt Carrier w/Key installed (or just cut yours)

End Cap Options:
#AZ15307 -- $7.95 -- End Cap
#AZ15029 -- $.50 -- Screw (10/32) for End Cap or use #AZ15644 Stud
or #AZ15644 -- $1.95 -- Swivel Stud (replaces #AZ15029 Screw)
or ... you can just tap it and put a 4-40 seet screw in to hold the spring.  That's what I ended up doing.  Either way you have to tap a hole, so why not?

If you decide to go without the end cap, you can tap the rear of your takedown pin detent hole and install a small set screw to hold the spring in.  If you do this (Cheaper) then make sure you take a few threads off of the spring for proper tension.  Me?? I'd just get the end cap and swivel stud from Bushmaster.  That way you have a cleaner look that matches your buffer tube and it gives you a swivel stud too! <-- Okay, check the update below.  Experience leads me to believe that the set screw is the better way to go now.

UPDATED:  I ended up not liking the end cap.  I just bought a $2.89 4-40 tap and a 4-40 set screw.  I cut down the retainer spring, tapped the hole (it's already drilled the right size) and lock-tited the screw in.  Cleaner.  I still have to drill a hole in the back of the receiver and tap for a 10/32 screw for my sling swivel... but that's for later.

Some final thoughts:  I've heard one complaint that you have to unscrew the buffer tube each time you disassemble the gun.  That's true, but this is tough plastic here.  IF it ever wears out, the replacement part is dirt cheap.  In fact, if you're worried about it then just order a spare tube when you buy the parts above!


-- Above is the Standard Model 1 Sales unit which uses a standard AR-15 Bolt Carrier.


-- Above is the Professional Ordnance Buffer (first Version) which had a bolt carrier that was cut about an inch it looks like from the picture.  Also notice the little end cap at the back of the receiver.  This is the part I talked about earlier.


-- Above is the current version as made by Bushmaster.  That black piece has a hole in the middle and the inner and outer walls form a cavity which is filled with shot which prevents bolt bounce.  Notice how the bolt carrier needs to be cut back about equal to the length of the new buffer.  This is more of a cut than the first version.  I wonder if they did this to give room for more shot?

So, why do it this way?
- For one, the Model 1 Sales buffer is unreliable.  The bolt tends to bounce back when firing often creating an out of battery situation.  Not unsafe, but the gun won't fire.
- Secondly, you end up with a buffer that sticks out about 4 3/8" from the rear of the receiver versus 7 1/8" for the CAR Buffer System.  That's about 2 3/4" savings.  So, for another inch and a quarter Overall Length, your pistol can have a 4" longer barrel!  Or, you can trim almost 3" off your already reliable pistol without sacraficing the reliability!
- Also, the gun will be lighter.  That plastic tube, shorter bolt carrier, lighter buffer, and lighter spring will trim some weight off your gun.  I'll weigh them and get back with you on the figures. <-- posted in my update post pg. 17.
- This was an engineered option designed by people who warrantied their products and wanted them to work.  They shouldn't (I hope) need tweaking to work right.
- Finally, you can get into this option cheap.  If you use your bolt carrier, and sell your pistol buffer on EE or one of the Auction sites, you might even break even on the deal!  Why not?  If you're worried about it working, buy Bushmasters bolt carrier so you won't have to permanently modify yours.  If it doesn't work, sell the parts on the EE and you might lose about $25 or so.

I'm posting a follow-up when I get more work and/or research done.  Wish me luck! <-- see my updated post on pg 17 and beyond.  It worked!  But I learned a few lessons.