Additionally, the owner must follow all local laws.  If it's illegal to possess pistols while under 21, you can't BUILD one out of a receiver.  If you go to sell the gun through a dealer, that dealer must sell it as a pistol, even if it's built into a rifle at that time.  Get it?

This is so fun, btw.

Originally Posted By MRW: Perhaps a more important question should be DOES THE BATF CARE? Are they going around checking folk's paperwork?  Has ANYBODY ever been prosecuted for violating the "can't build a pistol from a rifle" rule ALONE (instead of a tack-on charge in addition to using the weapon to murder or rob somebody)?  Is the BATF even LOOKING for folks that violate this rule?  And I mean REALLY violate it, as in disassemble their factory rifle, and blatantly build a pistol? I think the BATF must sit back and laugh their ass off at all the anal-retentive hand-wringing going on over this issue when they really don't give a damn. Unless you go out and shoot up the neighborhood with it, I think you folks are being a WEEE BIT paranoid about the paperwork.   Buy a stripped lower, and somehow have a reciept or other documentation that it was a stripped lower, and get on with your life.

Two things,

Quite frankly, I've found that every agency has someone who DOES care to interperet laws to the extreme.  So I'd say, yes, the ATFE certainly does care, depending on what particular agent may be the subject.

But more importantly, some local deputy/officer will probably care more when you take it to the range!  I've worked with HUNDREDS of cops in my long, sordid career.  Suffice it to say that about 5% of them really know about firearms other than what they carry on their side.  Some of the other 95% may indeed see that evil "short barreled assault weapon of death-incarnate" and feel you need to be cooling on Alcatraz for posessing such an evil thing.

So DO make sure the paperwork is in order.  Hell, I was a cop for 24 years and it scares the poopie out of me to think of taking an AR pistol to the range without some proof of it's "pistol-birth" in my pocket!

Tom

MRW, you make a very good point.  Long before the AWB ended I was gearing up to make my pistol if the AWB did go away so I started getting all my ducks in a row early in June.  When I started contacting my local ATFE supervisor Mary Jane Humphrey about all the ins and outs about doing the pistol build when the ban expired, I know she was ready to have me locked up for no other reason so that I would quit bugging her.  While this pistol build thing it is great to do your best to stay within the letter of the law, but just as with the LEO marked magazines before the ban ended you are not going to go to jail because you happened to do a pistol build on a lower that might have been built into a rifle first.  Now, running around with a stock on your <16" barreled pistol may damned sure get you in trouble because it could cause you to be "looked at" in regards to your SBR tax stamp if a LEO were to question your possession of the arm.  
I say this because the ATFE is not going to go door to door looking for pistol builds and then check them to see if they are 100% within the law.  Second, the ATFE has more important things to do than check up on weapons that are being legally used and are not being made and sold for personal gain, such as being a maker of firearms without the proper documentation (building completed guns from stripped lowers is not illegal for you to do yourself, but if you start building a bunch of complete rifles from these lowers and then selling them for personal gain, you are in violation because there has been no federal excise tax paid on them, and probably a couple of other laws are being violated if you do not have an SOT or FFL and not doing 4473s-fine line between selling off excess firearms and being an illegal dealer).  Third, as you well said, the only time you are going to see the ATFE go after anyone for such a rifle to pistol violation is if they have committed a crime and they give the ATFE reason to start looking at them more closely, just as with the LEO marked mags during the ban.  No ATFE agent is going to show up at your range and run a serial number check on your pistol, not without damned good reason.
I think we do get to caught up in the law to the point of many actually trying to read more into the law than is already there, and there is plenty there already without the need for us to read between the lines and add more.  It never hurts to play it safe, but there does come a point when paranoia starts to take over and some start to break out the aluminum foil hats.

why use a Bushmaster when 95% plus of them are built as complete rifles.  Use an Eagle or Ameetec, how many of those do you see sold as complete rifles vs. reciever only?

If you just look and see its an Ameetec, its gauranteed to be originally stripped...

Originally Posted By DigDug: Originally Posted By starjones: Now I feel really stupid for posting again.  I am not having any difficulty understanding the stuff that you guys continue to post.  The last remaining confusion I still have is with the transfer itself.  If a stripped RIFLE receiver is not technically a RIFLE, then does the TRANSFER have to be indicated as a HANDGUN or LONG GUN or does that indication NOT MATTER, since technically the RIFLE receiver is not really a RIFLE or a PISTOL???  Does anyone have the clarification on that particular question?  Am I not asking the question the proper way? Basically, if my dealer calls in the NICS check and says LONG GUN and checks the LONG GUN box on FORM 4473 Section B, does that automatically mean any lower transferred on that form must be built into a rifle configuration even if the type of firearm in Section D is listed as stripped lower?  Please note that the word RIFLE would not appear on the Form 4473 anywhere. You are correct.  Should be stripped lower or pistol.  Not long gun.  And then you have your instant paperwork proof.

I recently sold one of my AR pistols and I offered teh buyer to ship it stripped so it could be transferred as just a lower, or any way he wants.  Buyer wisely requested that I just trasfer it complete as a 4473 pistol.  I didn't realize until now, but that's instant documentation for future.

Well here it is. Been lurking, learning, and dreaming. But here it is. I did not build the upper; it came pre-assembled from DPMS. Shot it today for the first time - NO PROBLEMS. NONE. After almost ordering a Model 1 Sales kit, and reading all the posted comments, I went with a DPMS 7" Kittykat and used a Stag Lower. Works like a champ. Cleaned the bore after the first 20 rounds; again after 50 more. Total cost: around $800.

Must say, it doesn't boom nor flash anything close to my AK pistols (which by the way cost 1/4 as much and I enjoy them alot) but SHE likes it, so we're ahead.

Thanks everyone for all the coaching that maybe you didn't know was going on. Ace tube & buffer. I was prepared for problems but they never happened. About 80 rounds so far and PURRRFECT.

This is my first attempt to post a pic and it ain't happening.....

Steve in El Paso

I'll have more pictures uploaded in a few days... just waiting on my ACE buffer tube.

-Jason

I finally have a range report on this:





I put two magazines thew it without a hitch.  It was loud and a blast both literally and figuratively.  

It is a Tormix lower with a RRA lower parts kit.  The upper is an Olympic Arms upper with a Vortex flash hider I bought at a gun show.  I put a Bushmaster bolt carrier and buffer tube, and the rear site is a YHM.  

On a side note, the Vortex took care of the flash even with a 7.5" barrel!

Originally Posted By patrickcudd: I finally have a range report on this: photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=37540 I put two magazines thew it without a hitch.  It was loud and a blast both literally and figuratively.   It is a Tormix lower with a RRA lower parts kit.  The upper is an Olympic Arms upper with a Vortex flash hider I bought at a gun show.  I put a Bushmaster bolt carrier and buffer tube, and the rear site is a YHM.   On a side note, the Vortex took care of the flash even with a 7.5" barrel!

If you will, please shoot it after dark and then tell us if the Vortex takes care of the flash.

Posted this in another thread...



AR-15 pistol lower with regular (entry) buffer tube.(Rock River)
AR-15 upper (FN) with 9" barrel, Vortex Flash Hider, Flat-top, mounting rails, Heat dissipator.
Bushnell HoloSight


Haven't shot it yet. Hopefully some time this week or this coming weekend. I'm very much looking forward to it.

Edit for update: Went to the range today. The Holosight was originally set up on my M-17S, up on the carry handle, so I was expecting to have to adjust it a bit on this new gun. I inserted a 30 rnd. mag with military surplus and started shooting at 50 yrds. The point of impact was pretty much dead-on. I shot about four mags worth of rounds through this thing and didn't get a single hiccup. It worked flawlessly and the mag also locked the bolt open after the last round each time. I didn't get to rapid fire it due to club rules though. But it cycled perfectly so I don't think there'd be a problem with it. I'm looking forward to some fast shooting though. What amazed me was the apparent accuracy. I shot several rounds while aiming through the holosight and got very good tight hits. I was mostly shooting at dirt though. A 9" barrel seems to be very adequate at 50 yrds.

Now I'm afraid that I'm gonna get the SBR bug really badly.

The only thing that would concern me about building a pistol, is the comment in the BATFE letter that:

"posessing a rifle buttstock that could readily be installed on your pistol could constitute posession of a short barreled rifle"

Who doesn't have an extra take off fixed stock lying around somewhere?  

I don't expect that the BATFE is going to go around inspecting residences for extra stocks, but they have stated in plain English what they are going to do if they find one.

Patrickcudd's gun shot great, but it is a lot heavier than my Carbon 15 Type 97 pistol.

I had a car tube on my pistol and then the woman at Model 1 sales told me about the readily take a stock rule and so I walked into her trap and bought one of their "new" pistol buffer tubes. Basically an entry tube with no hole in the back (seems that you could slide a stock on it anyway) and paid out the butt for it.  Never do that again. Will fix something to the tube so it cant take a stock.

essayons

I think that you guys are reading too much into this letter again.  If you re-read the thread, and do a little homework, you should be able to figure out that it is not simply possession of the parts, it would be possession with no other way other than to make an illigal SBR.  I keep my 20" upper in a shotgun case (Bagmaster) that has an inside compartment that the stock portion of the collapsable assembly fits in.  When the 20" is off of the lower, the stock goes into the case, with the upper (or into my 458 Upper case).   If I go to shoot the pistol without any upper rifles, I make sure that I don't have a stock with me.  Not too hard to keep straight.

I am not criticizing any of your choices to neuter the carbine or rifle buffer, as we all have to find our own comfort level, this post is for any folks looking at this thread who might still have some confusion.  The confusing part to me is that I ran in TC Contender/Encore circles for a lot of years with a lot of folks, and no one hardly even mentioned the issue, much less went to extreme lengths to circumvent what if's.  

Craig

Originally Posted By Big_B: The only thing that would concern me about building a pistol, is the comment in the BATFE letter that: "posessing a rifle buttstock that could readily be installed on your pistol could constitute posession of a short barreled rifle" Who doesn't have an extra take off fixed stock lying around somewhere?   I don't expect that the BATFE is going to go around inspecting residences for extra stocks, but they have stated in plain English what they are going to do if they find one. Patrickcudd's gun shot great, but it is a lot heavier than my Carbon 15 Type 97 pistol.

That whole constructive posession thing really gets me.  I don't see how a "jury of peers" could convict anyone of constructive posession, or how it would hold up constitutionally.  It would be like being convicted of rape for having a dick and being near a woman!

If you look at CBTEngr's post it sounds as if Model 1 Sales might be rehashing this information.  It could be that they want to be extra careful and cover themselves, or it could be that they want to sell you one of THEIR buffer systems.  Humm.........

As they are one of the few companies that will sell upper "pistol" assemblies in 5.56, I am going to give them the benefit of doubt.   Especially since some of the other major players state categorically, no papers, no pistol upper (no liabilty for them).

If you recall the BATF situation posted earlier in the thread where someone got into trouble, it was because they had no other gun configuration but an illegal one.  That looks pretty constructive to me. And, more importantly, as was posted and alluded to earlier, he was doing something else illegal that got him under the microscope in the first place.

Craig

Originally Posted By patrickcudd: That whole constructive posession thing really gets me.  I don't see how a "jury of peers" could convict anyone of constructive posession, or how it would hold up constitutionally.  It would be like being convicted of rape for having a {penis} and being near a woman!

Your analogy is spot on.  The problem is, it's still illegal and law abiding citizens will abide by the law.  These laws, regs, and opinions are not meant to prosecute people, they are incremental gun bans in disguise.  If you look at it that way, the whole thing makes perfect sense.  Try to explain to the BATFE that their interpretation is wrong and you'll get a blank stare.  If you get 100 acquitals for 100 prosecutions, the law will STILL stand.  It takes a conviction, a denied appeal, another denied appeal, another denied appeal, and so-forth until the Supreme Court gets it and then it has to be "Trendy Enough" for them to rule on.  Where's the incentive for them to change their interpretations?  Do you think Elian Gonzales is any different than Janet Reno in this respect?  John Ashcroft, where are you when we need you!?

I just soldered in the holes in the car buffer and called it good.

Originally Posted By g33inmypocket: I just soldered in the holes in the car buffer and called it good.

That works.  Solder or JB weld.

And I'm paronoid and have a lower marked "pistol".  

Originally Posted By g33inmypocket: And I'm paronoid and have a lower marked "pistol".

Being "paranoid" isn't too bad....... I mean it's not like they're gunning for you

(Internet connectiong being routed through 15 servers in 6 different countries, IP address being faked and .....)

Aww c'mon guys, stop whining and post more Ar-pistol porn already.

Marking your pistol, "PISTOL" is pointless.  If it's already marked that way, fine, but going out of your way to track one so-marked ignores the fact that there is no regulation that says it has to be marked as such.  I can't understand even a paranoid person doing this either.  You are capable of taking a rifle and marking it pistol, but that don't make it legal.  If you take a receiver marked 'pistol' and first build it into a rifle, it isn't a pistol either.

http://www.tacticalsupplies.us/VIDEO.html

mine is the 3rd video clip down on the page.....

it bumps good, but is a little hard to do with wolf, it is a bit underpowered

Any one have experience with AR pistols without the buffer tubes, such as the Oly OA-93 and OA98??  

Yes.  If you're willing to spend $2-300 more, go for it.  Problem is, without a buffer the spring has to be stronger to avoid bolt bounce.

Here's pictures of my AR Pistol I built.
Stag Arms lower
DPMS Lo-Pro Receiver
7 1/2 barrel and float tube from CMMG
Bushmaster buffer system.

JR

Nice, Ripper.  That's ALMOST what my 2nd build will look like.  I'm putting a rail block up front and using a carbon fiber tube cut down.  Otherwise it'll be the same.

I got an RRA lower today, and when  the dealer was getting out the dreaded "Yellow Form", I asked if it was going to be listed as a stripped lower.  He said "I can put that, or pistol, or rifle, whichever you want.  If you get it as a pistol, you can make whatever you want.  Except a machine gun. Ha Ha."  It is nice to run across someone who has some idea about their own business.

BadgerArms, Thanks for sharing with us all your work, research, parts list etc. in this thread on the Bushmaster Buffer system, it works great and I'll bet is the shortest buffer available for an AR pistol.
JR

Well crap...

Obviously the buffer is the make-or-break piece if these guns are to function properly.  I ordered two 7.5" uppers & pistol buffers from Model 1.  I got the one with the short buffer that takes the 1911-type spring first.  I've been to busy with other things to shoot it though.  I got my second yesterday, but it came with a long buffer, just like the one that goes in a standard rifle stock.

I put them both together and went out back today for a shootout.  The one with the long buffer worked flawlessly.  The one with the stubby buffer failed to extract every round!  A phone call to Model 1 and the shorty is already on the way back to them for a replacement.

I think I'll be going back to my original plan and just picking up a Carbon 15.  I see several distributors have them in the $600.00 range now.

I had bad experience with a Carbon 15 rifle.  It didn't hold up well at all, and you couldn't use standard AR parts to fix it.  

Maybe the quality, durability and reliability has improved over the past few years, but I'd suggest talking with some owners that have shot their C15's a lot before plunking down the $$$.  

eland

Here's a picture of my brand new MGI Qcb upper, with my 10.5" barrel.  It shoots wonderfully, and the QCB system is very nice.

Craig

Originally Posted By eland: I had bad experience with a Carbon 15 rifle.  It didn't hold up well at all, and you couldn't use standard AR parts to fix it.

The new Carbon 15 parts are compatible with standard AR parts.  Have heard of one guy earlier in the thread who stated his tube broke, but he was using a sling swivel attached to an M4 stock plate which caused about tripple the normal stress on the threads.  It's an $8 part though.

That having been said, I don't like the Carbon 15 apart from the newer bolt carriers and buffer system.  It's the cat's meow for a light, short, reliable buffer.

Bearbait1,
That looks Cool, I LIKE it.

tag

CMMG lower, hope the rest works.


More pics and range report SOON.

I don't like the Carbon 15 apart from the newer bolt carriers and buffer system. It's the cat's meow for a light, short, reliable buffer.

I agree!
JR

Originally Posted By dot_bob: CMMG lower, hope the rest works. www.dotbob.us/pistol1.jpg More pics and range report SOON.

Hey, DotBob,

What gas block did you use on your gun?  Thanks.

I just dremeled the sight tower down. If I get it running smoth without having to put a set screw in the gas block/tube, I believe I will use the YankeeHill Specter 2pc. gas block. Hopefully I will get a chance to test it out today.

Originally Posted By dot_bob: CMMG lower, hope the rest works. www.dotbob.us/pistol1.jpg More pics and range report SOON.

Bob,

What kind of buffer ? Looks like an ACE ?
Update on reliability ?
I'm thinking of an Ace buffer/tube and a  GMMG 10 inch upper.
CKMorley

MRW,
Is that a 11.5" bbl?  Looks like it.  Looks Good!(Never mind, I just read the link for your emergency carbine).

I just got my bbl today from Pete at Legal Transfers.  It is a real cool bbl.  It's a BM 1/7, 11.7", FLUTED bbl.  Fluted under the handguards.  Looks real sweet.  Pete is a very nice person to work with.  I'm just glad he parted with this bbl.  I could tell he 2nd guessed himself about parting with it.  I'm glad that he did.  I'm currently waiting for my action block so I can complete this build.  I'll be posting pics soon.  I hope I get the action block tommorrow.  I was a bit dissapointed that it didn't arrive today.

He didn't have anything in stock, but he had one on his personal AR that he let go.  He said he has some Colt bbls inbound, and that he couldn't justify keeping all of them so he let me buy his.  He is a great person to work with.  You might call him about the Colt bbls, he also said something about another manufactor as well.  I'm not real sure so you'll want to call him.

I am just amazed at the amount of hits this thread gets.... 72,100 at the moment I clicked!

Thanks again everyone who posts and contributes!
-Jason

Originally Posted By CKMorley: Originally Posted By dot_bob: CMMG lower, hope the rest works. www.dotbob.us/pistol1.jpg More pics and range report SOON. Bob, What kind of buffer ? Looks like an ACE ? Update on reliability ? I'm thinking of an Ace buffer/tube and a  GMMG 10 inch upper. CKMorley

It's styled like the Model1Sales old version. I got it from GunSmokeEnterprises. I just tested it out this morning. It worked fine with both the original and Wolff 41926 springs. It cycles too fast, I will have to try the set screw in the gas tube trick. I hope to get that done this week. It was AWESOME to shoot.

Mike

If you guys are going to get the ACE buffer tube I strongly suggest that you get it from ACE.  I priced them before getting mine from ACE, and I had some retailers selling them at $75.00 vs. $57.00 from ACE.  I am surprised that a company with a good name would price something over retail.  That company lost my business this time, and left room for doubt.  In fact when I was shopping for bbls. and uppers I had to take them out of the running.  I'll still do business with them, but I'll keep doing my research.