Just an fyi, as I checked with Hornady on dies.  and I own page 55

Good Day Mr. 6731HBAR,

The cost would be 150.00 plus shipping and handling. Our current lead time has been running 10-12 weeks. Please don’t hesitate to give me a shout with any questions or to get an order started. 800-338-3220

Thank you for your inquiry

Regards,
Ben Syring
Custom Reloading Die Designer
Hornady Mfg. Co.
3625 W. Old Potash Hwy
Grand Island, NE 68803
 
“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed”

Thanks much...

I Will probably be using the 117 RN for a while - I picked up about 500 from the last bullet blem sale on midway

Very awesome wombat!

Altair,

How many water jugs did the 87 gn Speer penetrate?

I believe it wsa just the one, but I'll check my notes when I get home.  The frag was in the 1st jug after the block.  The core might have made it to a 2nd jug but I don't think so, I'm pretty sure it was just the one.

wombat25,

Nice deer!

Nice deer Wombat!

Im gearing up for hunting season also.  My antelope season starts this coming Saturday, I have 1 buck and 2 doe tags this year.  Having never killed a big game animal with a pistol 1 of those tags is ear marked for my 7-30 Waters contender, 1 is for my 1903 Springfield as issued built in Septemeber 1909, the last tag was going to be for my 300wsm and than I remembered I have the 25-223 bolt gun

So today after church my wife and I ran into the local gun shop to pick up another box of 100gr Nosler Ballistic tips, they were out....of course.  But they had a couple boxes of 110gr Accubonds, which I hadnt shot in this rifle.  I did a quick load work up when I got home with H335, Nosler neck sized cases, Wolf small rifle magnum primers, and these Accubonds seated to 2.460" which just kiss the lands.

At the range a little more load work and I bet they would shoot as good at the 100gr SMK's in my rifle

Remeber this is a bolt action rifle with a longer barrel and I can seat the bullets out much further than in an AR

25.1gr shot about 3/4" at 100 and averaged 2655fps
25.6gr shot about 3/4" at 100 and averaged 2670fps
26.0gr shot 1/2" at 100 and averaged right at 2700fps, but its a pretty hot load and I dont think I can go much hotter without blowing primers or causing the cases to fail.

So I loaded up 20 rounds and got my drops chart ready heres the old nutless Savage ready to bring home meat next weekend.





Nosler says these will expand down to 1800fps and according to my ballistic calculator I hit 1800fps at 550 yards.

Looking forward to your report, that 25-223 is quite the rig.

Very nice Dk hope to see a nice lope taken with the nutless savage  

More 115 gr berger chronographed loads.

These are
HBN coated, very hot loads loaded long, in measured LC 30.5 gr h20 capacity brass  and definately not safe loaded shorter.
Milled out CP defense magazine
All 09 LC brass
320PF 20" bbl
ALL 115 gr berger loads at 2.375 (the lands are at 2.42)
ALL H335
ALL cci BR primers
No crimp
91dF

No heavy swipe marks on any cases.
Light swipes on 25.6 and 25.8
All primers fairly flat, but nothing that worries me.
All case heads okay
Had one super flat primer at 25.3 so that must have been the flyer.

24.8 - 2508 - Est 53k
25.0 - 2520 - 55k
25.3 - 2550 (Open group 2 at 1" apart 3rd 2") - 57k
25.6 - 2562 (Tightest 3 shot group 2 touching 3rd shot 3/4" - basically a 3/4" 3 shot group) - 59.5k (light swipes)
25.8 - 2594 (Probably bad) Chrono went - blew off the upper wing so I think this is a bad number. QL says it should be at about 2580 - 62k (light swipes)

At 500' ASL 2560 FPS returns 750 FPE at 500 yards and supersonic at 1000 yards - LOL.
1050 FPE at 300 yards.

Also chronographed more HBN coated 100 gr prohunters loaded at 2.26 COL over 25.5gr H335
Avg 2675
Mediocre to Average accuracy 1" -1.5"

This is one kick ass little cartridge.

Might see if I can get 2600 out of the 115 berger loaded at 2.385 etc. Probably would need 08 brass though.
That should return, 200 yard zero, 2.1" max ht at 120 yards, 9" low at 300, 26" low at 400, 53" low at 500.

At 2560 - Mildots 200 zero, 316, 414, 501

Heres our antelope hunt from today.

Today was the opener for my 2012 antelope hunt I have 2 doe tags and 1 buck tag this year.  My dad and I were in my area as the sun was coming up.  This years goal was to take an antelope with my 1903 Springfield, still in the same configuration it left the factory in 103 years ago this month....built September 1909

We made a couple stalks that werent successful, mainly because we had a breeze at our backs and we were walking into the rising sun.



My Springfield really likes the Ranch Dog 311-165 with unique powder and magnum primers so thats what I went with, velocity is only around 1700 fps.



Dad and I got on a group of does and we made a stalk, we got into 50 yards of them before they spotted us.  We low crawled about 200 yard than belly crawled the last 100 yards.  Dad even found a cactus with his arm but stuck with me to see the shot.  I took the first shot of my 2012 antelope season on the lead doe at about 65 yards.  I hit her a little low on the first shot which would have killed her just fine if I would have let it work but I wanted to get another shot in her.  The second shot was a typical quartering away rib to off side shoulder shot and was about 40 yards which anchored her.  My first big game kill with this rifle and a cast boolit....pleased with both.



Once the trigger is pulled the fun stops but Dad and I had it skinned, boned out, and on ice within the hour....after spending 15 minutes pulling cactus needles out of his arm.






After getting the first goat on ice we went to find another one.  Dad and I checked out a water hole that looked like the place to be if you were a cow or an antelope hunter.  We hung out for about an hour watching a nice buck that I was really considering taking, he was nice but not opening day nice...season is a month long.  We picked out a large doe that the bucks werent interested in and settled in for a 186 yard broadside shot.  Up to bat this go around was my custom built 25-223 shooting a 110gr Accubond at a muzzle velocity of 2700fps.  After the cattle cleared the way I took the shot.  My rifle weighs in at 15 pounds and has zero recoil, I watched the bullet impact right where I had my crosshairs and the goat took off.  She didnt run very far and when she tipped over she left a heck of a dust cloud hanging in the air.  Dad and I walkd over got some pictures and he headed back for the truck while I drug her to a two track we got her cut up and on ice really quick.  The rig I have for the back of my truck is probably one of the best things I have ever built.  This was the 7th goat that has been on since last year and we will have 3 more on it by the end of the season.





Heres the exit hole from the 110gr Accubond



I think I am going to use the 25-223 to fill my buck tag also

dk223,

Nice goat.  I really like the skinning rig that you built for the back of the truck.

Very nice dk, were you able to recover the bullet?

Bullet sailed through that goat in a straight line and never stopped as would be expected with a bonded bullet going 2700fps at the muzzle.  Impact velocity was probably close to 2300fps and judging by the damage if you guys are looking for a deer hunting bullet for your AR's and the 110gr shoots well in the 2500fps range you will have no problem on deer a close range.

Absolutely awesome work dk223. Great pictures.

Thanks for sharing as well the kill with the 1903 Springfield. That's no easy task.

Good luck on filling your buck tag. Be sure to keep us posted!

Great work DK223, I'm glad to see the Quterbore AR guys having good sucess with this wildcat...

Season is over for me!!! Dad and I covered a couple hundred miles on two days of hunting and looked at over 150 different bucks.

About 3:30 this afternoon I fired my last shot at an antelope for the 2012 season.  Dad and I spent all day today looking at bucks before we caught up with this one.  I was watching a skinny 13" buck at about 50 yards when dad said I think I have a shooter out about 800 yards and he is coming in to us.  I swung over and saw mass and width, he wasnt as tall as I was looking for but a very respectable buck for the area and will make a nice skull for my wall.

When the buck was 500 yards out and still coming we got setup for the shot.  The buck was working his way into check out the little buck, which was now walking out to meet the larger buck.  When they met up at 250 yards or so I told dad Im going to take him, he tuned broadside dad was watching through his binos and said "Im on him", I took the safety off my 25-223 and sent the 110gr Accubond, the buck crumbled, lasered at 236 yards.



We got him hung and went to work.


Im not going to have a shoulder mount done but my buddy is a taxidermist and wanted the cap in case someone comes in and needs it so I dropped the head and hide off at his place and he did a quick measure before he caped it out. 14 1/2" long horns 6" diameter bases, Im not sure what he will score but my buddy seems to think in the mid 70's.....not bad for my FIRST buck antelope.

I can tell you guys the 25-223 is a heck of a killer on antelope.  236 yards isnt long range by any means but to flatten this old boy out like it did today I have alot of respect for the little round.  The bucks body wasnt huge but better thann average and the 110gr blew through his shoulders and did what it needed to do.

That is fantastic!

Evening, Gentlemen,
This is my first offering.
Although I've been lurking for about three years now, I had to sign up so that I could find how to aquire a 25-223 barrel.  I have never owned an AR15 (my service time predated that weapon) but now I find I really want a very light semi-auto for a walking-around rifle and the AR15 seems the best solution.
The chief intended target is turkey, with small deer and hogs next, and I think the 25-223 would be perfect for this size animal.  I have been shooting the 256 Winchester for some time now and it leaves me with a desire for a bit more velocity.  I also have a wildcat 6.5mm bolt gun I put togeather about 45 years ago, so I have also considered the 6.5 PCC, but I keep coming back to the 25-223.
I'm thinking about a New Frontier lower to cut weight and a very slim barrel 20" long. (I like longer barrels) Something like 0.6" at the muzzle, a 0.625 gas block and .75" behind that.  With a 20" barrel I would suppose a rifle length gas system would be correct.

So, here's my questions; Where do I get a barrel and how much does it cost? Same for dies.
                                        Are my specifications for the barrel reasonable?
                                        Do any of you regulars have advice that would change any of the above?
Thanks in advance.

Look up 320PF here for a barrel and also get the gage from him too.

Barrel is around $300 and I think he only makes one profile but not 100% on that.

My barrel is a 20" with a thread protector IE no break.
Flat top light upper.

It has a normal rifle length handguard and a quad rail .75" gas block.

It rides on a Cav II lower (no longer made but you can still find them) with a timney trigger.

Alum rings and a Nikon 4-12X mil-dot scope.
Entire rig with strap dry weighs 8# - 5oz

A Clark or other Carbon fiber handguard will save a few oz.

The Cav II lower saves about 16oz over a normal AR 15 lower.
Its a plastic lower similar material to a glock. Its pretty tough material.

Lightest AR I ever built was a normal flat top upper, ultralight 16" 6.8 SPC bbl from cardinal, Clark carbon fiber forgrip, rail gas block, Cav II lower, Dednutz scope mount, Leupold ultralight 3-9x.

That rig weighed 6# 4oz and that was a great cary rifle. At the time I had a S+W 460V and it was not much heavier than that pistol.

I Use a 223 seater or a 25 WSSM seater if I want a crimp.
Lately, I have not been crimping. Seems to spike the pressure a bit on my loads but they are very hot.

Use a Redding S 223 full length die with a 25 cal expander and 25 cal bushing.
The actual size of the bushing is back in this thread somewhere.

PM sent!

Reply to Tammons, as I ain't figgered out how to quote yet;
Thanks for the response.
I'm sort of familar with the Cav Arms lower, and certainly considered it, but would prefer the adjustable length stock for my first AR15.  As far as dies, I may start by using a 6.5 TCU die I have (by accident) for base sizing and use my 256 Winchester dies for the top half of the case, including the neck expansion.  I'll see how that works before seeking other dies.  When  the 256 brass dissappeared I tried a 256 rimless, made from the 223, and it worked OK in my Marlin 62.  However, I do appreciate your sharing your experience on the die question.
I've had a contact from 320 pf, and should be on the phone with him this weekend about the barrel.  I have to wonder if any of the current 25-223 users want to switch out to something else and sell me their current rig?  I well know how something new appears to be so attractive once the mystery goes away from the current toy.  Present company excepted, of course.  If I do built this 25-223 it might be my last rifle, as I'm getting too old for this stuff.  Bets are off on that if I'm still walking five years from now.

I was pleased enough with my .25-223 to build a second, so I'm not looking to get rid of one.  The .25-223 is the easiest wildcat conversion for the AR that provides a significant performance increase.  The only non-standard part is the barrel and forming cases is easier than any other wildcat I've played with.  For such little work you get an approximately 30-35% increase in energy and projectile size over .223 as well as a caliber that is legal for hunting in many places that the .223 is prohibited.

There are other calibers available in the AR platform that give you more performance (6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel for example), and even a couple that use the .223 parent case (7.62x40 and 6.5 PCC), but you'll be hard pressed to find one as simple to do.

If you would be shooting lighter projos, are there any significant advantages of the 25-223 over the 6x45?

i cant speak for the 6x45 but i only shoot 75 and 85gr bullets in my 25ar they perform flawlessly.
My 85gr load runs a avg 2765fps and drops @12MOA at 500yds.

It destroys groundhogs (nosler ballistic tip)  

My 75gr load is topping 2850fps

I run 3 bullets 75gr hornady HP, 75gr sierras, and my go to is 85gr nosler ballistic tips. If it has to die inside of 500 yards ill grab the noslers all day long.

To quote just click the quote tab below the message.

I think most people here that have a 25-223 are very pleased with their rifles in 25-223. Mostly all Varmint to Deer and pig sized hunters.
I have been focusing on the upper bullet weight range. I have been running the 115 gr berger hunting bullet. Test loads only so far and have got it up to almost 2600 FPS loaded long
in a milled out magazine.

The .25-223 will probably be a bit more efficient in shorter barrels due to the larger bore to case size ratio.  This is the reason it gives a significant edge over .223 in the first place.  That said, the 6mm will allow you to go down in bullet weight farther than the .25-223 so it really depends on what you want from it.  If you shoot 75gr bullets in both the .25 should have a higher initial velocity (especially in short barrels) but will also have a lower BC.  That said the differences won't likely be large.

In the end, look at your intended use and work from there.  The biggest advantage to the .25-223 is that it provides the capability of using larger projectiles than the .223 with similar velocities.  My interest was specifically in going with larger projectiles so it fit the roll well.  I also have a 7.62x40 which does this, but it requires fire formed cases and de-ribbed magazines so it is more work and expense than the .25-223.

I would say not much, but you might find lighter projectiles in 6mm.

If strictly varmint hunting or target, I would probably go for a 6x45.

If hunting varmints plus larger animals 25 or 6.5 will have an advantage in heavier projectiles and more bullet frontal area.

I thought about a 6x45, but I want to use my rifle for deer and hogs, so it was either a 25, 6.5 or 7mm since I wanted a larger bullet.

7mm high BC projectiles are starting to get pretty heavy thus slower speeds and I could not find anything that looked promissing and easy to form in 7mm-223.

300 blk was out, too limited in range. 300 WT or whatever its called looked interesting, but still limited.
The 308 Arrow does interest me in a bolt gun, but thats an entirely different animal.

I ended up 25-223 mostly because the numbers looked good and the brass is easy to make.

25 cal and 6.5mm seem to be the 223 wildcat sweet spot.

scatterbrains, Altair and tammons, thanks for your input.

Good morning, .25-223 shooters;
I have been in contact with Brent about a barrel, but I can't decide on the profile.  I want to end up with a very light rifle, but I don't want a "short" barrel.  There's the rub, what is considered a short barrel for an AR 15?  How light is a light barrel?  Right now, most of my bolt guns have 26" of tube, so 16" seems very short.
I just measured the muzzle diameter on my Marlin 62 at 0.593" and found 0.71" at the end of the forearm, so it seems 0.60" muzzle and 0.70" under the handguard would be heavy enough from the standpoint of strength.  I do know that P. O. Ackley found a barrel thickness over 1/8" would hold pressure generated by a 30-06.
(of course that was likely less than 50,000PSI in the dark ages of the '50's).
I'm leaning toward 20", 0.60" at muzzle, a 0.625" gas block, and 0.70" behind the gas block.  I'm also thinking an adjustable gas block, as I am forever messing with loads all over the pressure envelope.  Is the 20" barrel too long to use a middy gas block location?  How about balance with the longer tube?
Oh, when I say light I'm thinking about seven pounds, optics included.
Comments and advice from AR savvy shooters would be welcome......

I personally like the 20" Bbl. length, I would go with a .750" behind the gasblock, .625" at the gasblock, and .600" forward the gasblock.
I think that it would be light enough, and give you the best velocity, and a mid-length gas system with give you a reliable gas flow to the
gas key/bcg...a adjustable gasblock while not really needed, It will give you more load options to work with.


Good Luck.

I believe that 320PF's 20" barrels are rifle length gas system by design. Not saying a mid length wont work, just saying.

I have his standard contour barrel with a thread protector, dpms slab side flat top upper receiver, 4 rail picatinny gas block,
Nikon 4-12x prohunter mildot on a cav arms lower and the entire rig with strap weighs 8# 2oz dry - Just as a FYI.

got to do some shooting with my 25-223
Here are a couple of pictures of targets. I didn't chrono the loads but am pleased with the accuracy. Deer season is rapidly approaching. :)
All are 5 shot groups. The only one I'd not consider is the speer HP, I'm not sure on the construction and think it may be a bit fragile for deer.

Now to decide what one to load and use. :) (the squares are 1/2 inch squares.)






Yes that's 5 shots, three boogered really close.

blammer have you tried a nosler partition or accubond in 100gr?

I think those 2 bullets would be absolutely fantastic on med sized game out of the AR.

Where you shooting from a bench or a "hasty" rest with those targets?

Blammer,

You are correct in not consider the Speer 100 gn HP.  On their website, Speer list the 100 gn HP as a varmint bullet.

I have heard that the you have to shoot a few molly coated bullets to get it "seasoned" for shooting molly coated bullets. If you go back to copper you have to do the reverse. At least that is what I have pick up from various sources.

Are the 100 gn Sierra bullet the ProHunters or the GameKings?

Scatterbrains
Have not tried Nosler partition or the 100gr accubond, I have some 110 accubond I may try.

This was on a bench, well bagged in with a 25x scope, I could see my heartbeat in it. :)

320pf
thanks for info on the Speer, the HP on that looked really large!

I've tried moly and not moly and all variants of naked, moly, being shot and how it effects stuff.
I can say, MY OPINION, is that effect generated on non moly bullets after moly is shot is minimal, and it takes about 2 shots to get the bore seasoned. So I shot two throw aways before the group.

the Sierra's are 100 gr spitzer #1620

It is always good to hear other people's experiences with such things.

Thanks

These have always shoot well for me and did the job on the last pig I took with it.  Should work as well or better on a whitetail.  Hopefully I'll find out in a few weeks.

I have some 75gr X bullets. Was thinking about trying RE7 with them.

anyone else experiment with the 75gr X bullet? (yes these are the old ones, I have 4 boxes of them)

I suspect they may do well for hunting if I can get some decent velocity and accuracy out of them.

I got up to 2930 with a coated 80 gr TTSX out of a 20" bbl.
For non coated 80 gr TTSX bullets the MAX load is around 24 gr of RL7
Load should be similar.

I ran the 75 gr X through quickload and its about the same.

Max should be around 23.5-24gr of RL7 and running from 2910-2960 out of a 20" bbl.

Please Work up from a minimum start load.

Thanks! I'll give it a go.

I also found a box of 500, 117gr HORN BTSP.

I'm gonna try to see how they do. :)
May look at H335 for them.

I have been testing the 115 gr berger coated loaded long in a milled out magazine over H335 and got some impressive numbers.
Just under 2600 so far.

H335 should work for that 117 gr bullet.

What is the COAL of the 115's in your milled mag? Is the ogive of these bullets such that you could load them in either a stock PRI mag (2.29) or a PMAG (2.26)? I would gladly settle for only 2500 fps, as this is one of the few loads I have seen in this caliber (or any of these 223 cats for that matter) that opens the gap enough at range over a 75 hornady at 27-2800 for me to really get interested. To be clear, I define "at range" to be 5-700m. All of these variants hit harder at shorter range, but run out of gas quicker.

EDIT: This is not to imply that the 223 isn't bested by these other rounds to some degree. However, I feel that the improvement needs to be significant for me to consider moving away from an off-the-shelf, combat-proven solution. Significant to me is somewhere at least close to half-way to a 308.

for the 117's I may just single load them, so my COL of 2.35 will be fine.

Tammons,
Please tell us about the milled out mags.

I actually did not mill it out, but milling is the better way to do it.
I drilled a hole and cut down to it with a Dremel.

That said your bullet may not seat that far out depending on what it is.
IE the 100 gr Pro hunter has sort of a more blunt ogive and has to be loaded at around 2.26 or so.

I think the 80 gr TTSX can be loaded a tad over 2.3 COL but I cant remember for sure without looking at my notes.

The 115 gr berger hunting bullet has a very long ogive, IE a very pointy bullet and can be loaded in my barrel very long. The lands are about 2.42 in my barrel.
Actually you cant even load it at normal lengths in 25-223 as the ogive ends up inside the neck.

Will post a picture in a few....

Milled out mag.

Milled out area is 7/16" wide, about 7/8 tall with rounded corners.
This is a CP defense mag so the rounds under these 6 can be loaded to 2.3" COL

Shown are 6 115 gr berger loads all 2.375" COL
2.38 is about as long as can be loaded in my Cav II lower.

Thanks for the lesson.
I gather this is possible due to the mag well in the lower receiver being a bit longer than the magazine itself, allowing the bullet tips to extend very slightly forward of the magazine.  Opening the front of the magazine deeper would allow the lips to spread and release all the rounds.  Did I get that right?
I haven't felt like a firearms "newbie" in about 40 years.  I guess an old dog can learn new tricks.