This isn't really remotely related except a .257 caliber. I had someone shorten a Savage in 25-06 barrel and rechambered to an old wildcat. the 25 Souper Improved. An Ackley improved .308 case necked to .257. It had astonishing accuracy. Made me a big fan of quarter bore guns.

I'm following this and similar wildcat work because the .257 bore offers such a wide variety and quality of bullet. 25 caliber 100 grain spitzers at moderate speeds have been taking deer (and black bear, apparently) for a century.


VaFish, that's a snazzy looking case tumbler you have there. Never seen a white one before.  

If I used the wife's dryer as a case tumbler she'd use the .25-223 on me!

Besides it would be awfully noisy.

I got a Lyman case tumbler in the garage.

I had a chance to try out some Accurate 2460 this week end. According to the specs on this powder from the Accurate web site, this is a slower version of A-2230. The results seem to bear this out

All of the loads for A-2460 powder also shot very tight groups (1 inch or better).

Load Data: (standard disclaimer as with any wild-cat, use at own risk and work up slow)
100 gr Speer SPBT (16 inch 1:10 twist barrel)
Accurate 2460
wt.(gr)––vel. (fps)
24.7.....2377
25.3.....2394
25.8.....2425
26.4.....2501 case full, no pressure signs

Both of A-2230 and A-2460 are a bit too slow for the 25-223Ar.  So it looks like I am going to lay in a stash of H335 for both 223 and 25-223Ar reloading.

I hope you all find this useful

320pf

320pf,

I've started some of my own load workup and am looking forward to sharing details.

Any thoughts/notes on accuracy (relative comparisons or just off-the-cuff perceptions) for 4198, H335, R7, etc?

For what it is worth.....

Both H322 and H335 have given me good results.  The H335 velocities have been a bit higher but both give outstanding accuracy.  I'll be working up the H335 loads some more today and will try to settle on a good stopping point.  These two powders seem to work well without getting into pressure trouble and seem to be a little less sensitive than the 1680.  I almost forgot to mention that I'm still staying with the 100 gr. bullets (both Speer and Seirra.)

Our deer season is a week away and I'm hoping for a good test subject to come walking by.

I have some load data that I posyed for the 6X45 w/ the 100gr SGK that might help some of you fellas w/ the 25-223 round...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=506084

If any of you guys need some load data help just IM/Email me with the bullets and powders you have or plan to use and Ill send you the computer
load developement chart.

You guys are driving me nuts  I have an ultra-light profile barrel in the works.  Looks like I'll miss hunting season with it this year, but will have plenty of time to work up a load and be ready next year.  And, I have 3 valleys full of ground hogs to play with this spring...

Hey guys,

I found a little piece of paper in the door tonight.  So I think that the barrels are in.  I will go by the post office in the morning and pick them up.

320pf

Thanks for the offer.  What program are you using, QuickLoad?

320pf

Right now Im using LTD Ballistic Software Version 5.1 (Latest) and I'm Planning to also get Quick Load soon as a back-up.

I was over on another forum and was talking about this very build and a guy directed me over here. Took a few days to get registered, is it too late to gt in on this group buy?? I want one of these I think it would be a great Predator rifle shooting 70gr Blitzkings.

Great info on this

Send a PM to 320pf.

He has the reamer and some barrels on order, may even have them.

Thanks a bunch, I sent him an email

Well I was able to make contact, thanks for the info. I have some questions if I could pick the minds of several of you.  

I have decided on a 20". It was mentioned that a regular gas port placement in the same position as a 16" M4 might not be optimal??? The question is while it was said it would not be optimal would it be sufficient??? The reason is I have a DPMS upper in 16"  standard profile barrel that I never use. I an not a sport shooter or plinker, I use my rifles for predator hunting. I want to be able to re-use what I have instead of buying more parts to finish the build other than a mid length free float tube.

It was also mentioned that the barrel choices were Shilen, Green mountain, and Pac Nor. I was told the air gauged Green Mountain barrels were the cheapest. But for me if a rifle will not shoot 1 inch or under I just will not use it for predator hunting. So do you think the Green Mountain barrels will do this after load development has been done?

For me my plan is to shoot mainly 70gr -75gr bullets out of this upper. Would love to be able to shoot the 87gr Speer TNT bullets as they as so devastating on coyotes but I have a lot of concerns about not being able to reach 3000fps with it. I realise I am right at the upper envelope of this round. I have several other specialty AR's like a 243wssm and 6x45 so a 25/223 is not a reach for me....plus I love the quarter bores

I can't comment on the making of any velocity with the bullets you listed,

I think you would be better off selling your DPMS upper and just building a 20" upper,  Or strip your DPMS upper, sell the barrel, front sight, gas tube, ect..  And get a free float tube, low profile gas block and gas tube for the 20" .25 barrel.   Heck you are wanting to buy a free float tube anyways, the only other parts you have to buy are the low pro gas block and the gas tube, that's all of $50 worth of parts.

You are much better off with the gas port in the proper position.

I tried the 87gr. Speer TNT load in the ballistic computer w/ the 20" tube says u can get 2,700+ fps but not 3,000 fps.(Although it can be w/ the .25/.257 TCU case).

Using the Speer 87 gr HotCor I have reached 2886fps with 25 gr of R7.  The 87 gr Speer HotCor is 0.83 inches long. The modeling program that I use indicates a pressure of 52800 CUP (~64000 psi).  

The Speer 87 gr TNT is 0.91 inces long and when seated to a C.O.L. of 2.258.  The modeling program indicates that the same load with the Speer 87 TNT would have a pressure of about 54000 CUP (~66000 psi).  This is a bit higher than I like to run.  If you drop the pressure down to to about 52000 CUP the indicated velocity is about 2830 to 2860 fps.

DR69ER, what pressures does your software indicate for these loads?

320pf

EIDT: These velocities are from a 20-inch barrel

I'll run some numbers for you guys w/ both HotCors and TNTs...Stand By...I'l post a complete load sheet.

I will have it done by around 7pm as I have leave soon...

Sir,

I sent you an email requesting pmt details...when you get time


Also the Speer TNT bullets are what I would like but the 70gr Blitzkings are my next go to bullet for this. Should be able to move this bullet right along using RL7, AA2015, 10X, 748 or something like it.

My old upper I do plan to strip, I guess I did not explain it right. I am wanting to know if I simply kept the gas port in the standard position instead of where it was suggested for a 20" inch barrel if there would be really any issues? Truthfully I own several of these but have never stripped or built an upper, just trying to keep it cave man simple.

Also input on the barrel manufacturer choices would be helpful

Powder***********Load Density***********Charge WT.GRS.********************Velocity FPS**********Pressure CUP

IMR-3031**********100%******************** 27.3grs ************************* 2,618 fps****************** 45,421 CUP
BENCHMARK**** 100 ********************* 27.3 ***************************** 2,687 ********************* 47,832
X-TERM*********** 95 ********************** 25.9 ****************************** 2,628 ********************* 46,085
"         " ********** 100 ********************* 27.3 ****************************** 2,770 ********************* 50,829
AA-2230 ********* 100 ********************* 27.3 ****************************** 2,598 ********************* 44,729
W-748 *********** 100 ********************* 27.3 ****************************** 2,510 ********************* 41,730
RL-10X **********  90 ********************** 24.6 ****************************** 2,622 ********************* 46,002
"       " *********** 95 ********************** 25.9 ****************************** 2,760 ********************* 50,864
H335 ************* 100 ******************** 27.3 ****************************** 2,449 ********************* 39,758
TAC ************** 100 ******************** 27.3 ****************************** 2,704 ********************* 48,445
H4895 ************ 100 ******************* 27.3 ******************************* 2,564 ********************* 43,556  





Powder****************************** Load Dens.% *************Charge WT  Grs.************************************Velocity FPS*********************** Pressure CUP

IMR-3031***************************100********************************25.6*****************************************************2,566*****************************45,422
BENCHMRK***********************100*********************************25.6*****************************************************2,633****************************47,834
X-TERM*****************************95**********************************24.3*****************************************************2,576****************************46,127
“          “*****************************100******************************** 25.6*****************************************************2,714************************red]50,831[/red]
AA-2230 ****************************100********************************25.6******************************************************2,546****************************44,731
W-748 ******************************100**********************************25.6*****************************************************2,459****************************41,732
RL-10X*******************************90***********************************23.0*****************************************************2,562****************************45,720
“         “ ******************************95***********************************24.3*****************************************************2,706***********************[red]50,910[/red]
H-335 *******************************100**********************************25.6*****************************************************2,400****************************39,759
TAC *********************************100**********************************25.6********************************************2,650****************************48,446
H-4895*******************************100**********************************25.6********************************************2,512*************************** 43,557






I will post more powders for these loads later...wife needs help with Christmas decorations...already !

There is gotta be a better way to post this data

Dr69er,

I could not quite make out some the the parameters that are listed in your print outs.  

I have measured about a dozen cases and the case volume for the 25-223Ar is 31 gr of water.  Also the case length is 1.70 inches.

Thanks

320pf

According to the computer the avg. case volume of the 25-223 is 30.04 grs. of water (although it varies by manufacturer).
I put the case trim length @ 1.640", the computer puts it @ 1.740" untrimmed that is correct.
I usually put a shorter trim length as it gives me a more accurate velocity curve etc.

320pf

I saw you posted over at PM, great to have you join in. I am hoping to eventually push even further by eventually getting a 25 SPC barrel to build an AR based predator rifle.

Still ready when you are for me to send the deposit.....I do not want to miss out on this great project you have going on here, should be great fum.

#1 I haven't read ALL of this...VERY interesting post though.   Way back about 30 years ago I had a good friend who absolutely loved wildcats.  He would build a rifle, test it, get to know the ctg's capabilities...then sell it to ME.     I had a pair of .25's one built on the .222 Rem magnum case....possibly called the .25 Copperhead IIRC??   And another on the .223 Rem case like this one.

 Both of mine were on SAKO Vixen actions and had 24" HART barrels.  The rd built on the .222 Rem mag case got the most use. I used both 75 gr Hornady's and 87 gr Speers. NO idea as to velocity...didn't have a crono....and never kept any of Lee's data...Sorry.

Anyway...the 87 gr loads were DEADLY on deer out to 100 yds. I shot a few dozen muley does off a neighbors haystacks two winters in a row...with my local Game Warden.  The little .25 worked VERY well.

 Sorry I don't have any REAL data, simply wanted to pass on that  mine worked pretty well on deer.

FN in MT

That's good to know.

I have some 87 gr Hornady's loaded up right now and hope to get the .25-223 out on deer this week.

Just to let folks know I called CH4D today and placed a die order. The said 8-10 months.........that blows.I am really leaning toward a Pac-Nor Poly barrel.......decisions decisions

I think interest in this caliber here is what caused them to sell out.  This is an older wildcat that they keep dies in stock for typically but this surge of interest bought out their stock.  I think I got one of the last ones.  Hopefully the more people that call about this die set the quicker it will get them to do another run.

Contact REDDING. I'm sure it's a CUSTOM die...so expensive...but doubt it will take  nearly a year!!

FN in MT

l'm realy interested in building a 25/233AR, can any one tell me what kind of money we are looking at for a barrel and a set of dies?
thanks
Bob

pm sent

I will look into other options for dies next week

320pf

I already ordered the dies so I would be on the list. But if something is available I would take it also. I have started researching and planning to order my upper parts after Thanksgiving.



320pf: Any word on barrels??

Sounds like it's time to have Lee make up a batch of 25 sets of dies.

http://www.leeprecision.com/html/catalog/custom.html

We should coordinate some type of group buy, because the main cost from Lee is set-up, after that the actual die sets are $40....  If we can get 4-5 people to all pitch in, it would extremely cost effective. Is anybody game for that?

I am in.....especially now that I have ordered a barrel

Maybe we should contact 320PF since he is kind of the leader in this and see if we can get some more people in on it.  If not, lets stay in contact via IM and we'll go halves.

Just a few 25x223 Rem ?

Are you running with a standard A3 upper?  NO M4 feed ramps. The gas block diameter is .750 inch?

I take it that the only dimension that was changed on the reamer drawing was the case neck for a .257 inch to fit.   Redding custom dies take 16 weeks / $169.50 plus $7.50 for a tapered size button from there web site.

I have been thinking 6.8x43 Rem for a build or even a 7mm TCU from JD Jones.  I have harvested deer and antelope one year with a TC in 7mm TCU with a regular 140 grain Sierra with a 14 inch barrel. The distance for both animals were  between 100 & 140 yards. One shot each and they dropped where they stood (just behind the shoulder on both taking out heart & lungs with total pass through).

This thread sure has me considering the 25x223 Rem. on a billet upper with NO M4 feed ramps.

If your upper has no M4 feed ramps then either barrel extension will work, you just can't put a non M4 ramp extension on an M4 ramped upper.  The gas block diameter on my barrel is .750" but I suspect you could have it cut however you want since these are custom contoured barrels.  

You'll have to check with 320pf about the reamer dimentions to be sure but my understanding is that it is exactly the same as a .223 just necked up and trimmed slightly.

I'd go 7mm TCU...  Reminds me to get crackin on mine...

Chris, keep us updated.

I just got my 25-223 barrel today!  

It is 16.5" with the chamber tapering down to .795",  .795" to the .750" gas block seat, .675" from the gas block seat up to a small shoulder of .730" behind the 5/8-24 threaded muzzle.  Total weight of 2lbs 1 1/8ozs

The taper looks good (too bad it will be covered up almost completely by the handguard I plan to use) and I'm looking forward to getting some rounds through it.  I have all the parts but my sister is getting married this weekend so I'm not sure I'll have much time to play with it for a while.

Sounds great. Please let us know what parts you used on the upper build and of any good deals on the parts you find.

I spoke with Brent today and I am having mine cut to 18" then threaded. Mid-length gas block. He said he was turning it into have it done. I wanted more of a varmint contour with a .750 gas block that I plan to put a mid-length free float tube on with the gas block right in front of that.  

Since dies are an issue right now I am sending him some brass to size and trim for me.

I was fortunate to get a set of dies from CH4D before they sold out.  I'm sure with enough interest they or Lee will be able to make some up.

As for the parts, I bought a used upper from a friend of mine to get most of the parts from.

Flat top Bushmaster upper and carrier
MGI bolt
YHM specter length customizable handguard
MI low profile gas block
Nikon 2-7 scope

I haven't decided on muzzle device yet.  Eventually I'll probably get another Phantom that is threaded for my QD YHM 7.62 suppressor but for now I'll stick a brake or flash hider on it, whatever I have laying around.  

I'll likely put the upper on one of a couple spare lowers I put together recently.  Nothing special, just standard LPK's and M4 stocks on stripped DPMS lowers.  For accuracy testing I'll probably use the lower my 7.62x40 is currently on, A2 stock with a RRA 2-stage trigger, or maybe my DPMS mini-SASS lower that has a PRS and a JP adjustable trigger on it.  We'll see.

ETA:  I managed to get the upper together already.  I forgot I mounted the 2-7 Nikon on another rifle (Savage bolt action) so I put a TA31F ACOG on it for now.  Just need to get some rounds loaded and find some range time...

I just went back through the thread and copied some of the listed load development to get an idea of where to start and I have a few questions.

320pf, you mentioned along the way that AA2460 and AA2230 were both too slow.  In the powder burn rate chart I have they are both listed as slightly faster than H335, which seems to be the best so far at developing speed.  Is my chart wrong?

Also, Ramshot TAC is listed as being very close to H335 in burn rate.  Has anyone tried this powder?  I have alot on hand as I use it for .223 and really like it.  If nobody has tried it, would you or Dr69er be willing to run this powder through one of the software modeling programs you have?

Lastly, IMR3031 was listed as a potentially "ideal" powder back on like page 5 or 6 but I didn't see much data with it.  I have quite a bit of 3031 on hand as well so any starting points would be appreciated.

Sure,just IM or email me with your needs.

Very interesting round. I am interested in a barrel (IM sent to 320pf) and dies if you guys get a group buy going.

Here is my latest Burn Rate Chart...