Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA: budam.  please post the letter when you get it!

Will do.

I'm sure someone who knows better than me can tell you in a more in-depth manner, but I've heard that competitive shooters like the heaviness of the F/A bolt.   Otherwise I know of no other benifit.

Even Sterling mentioned that high power shooters us FA bolt carrier assemblies and it was not a problem.

My guess: Likely because they are using tight chambers and the extra weight increases the ability to lock the bolt down.  Increases reliability.

mark
[email protected]

So, what we have here, (besides an earlier failure to communicate) is a concurrence by the lawyers in this forum, and others, is that by the letter of the law, a M16 type carrier installed in an otherwise stock AR15 does NOT constitute an infraction of said law.

And...

The afore mentioned lawyers do not recommend having one installed.

And...

That having said M16 carrier installed in an otherwise stock AR15 and having all the other little M16 parts hidden under one's pillow does constitute a violation of said law.

And...

No one has introduced any credible evidence that said M16 carrier actually enhances accuracy, functionality or reliablity to the afore mentioned stock AR15 with the possible exception of the hammer catching the pin on trigger groups that probably should not have been modified to cause such action in the first place.

And...

That Steve's bombardment of clarification on this issue to the ATF's tech group has caused the ATF's collective sphincters to shrink to the size of a hair follicle and therefore are doing their best tap dance around the issue.

I would like to inquire as to whether my conclusions are correct or if I have lost something in the last nine pages of interpretations.

Steve,

I would like to commend you on your seemingly in-exhaustible efforts to clarify the legality of this issue.  I would like to ask you (NO disrepect or sarcasm intended) what type of law do you practice?  This questions stems ONLY from curiousity NOT scrutinization of any type.  I am brand new here and just trying to get a better feel of who everyone is.

By the way, greetings to all!

Respectfully,

Devil Dog


"Our country won't go on forever, if we stay as soft as we are now.  There won't be any America - because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race."  LtGen Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller  USMC

Steve,

Very impressive.  I would say that's more qualifications to interpret the law than anyone else has offered.  It will be interesting to see if ATF ever answers your inquiry directly and without the tap dance.

Not to stray from the subject matter but, when did your father serve and was it ever under Chesty?

Take care,
Tony D.

"Our country won't go on forever, if we stay as soft as we are now. There won't be any America - because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race." LtGen Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller USMC

ok i just read through all 9 pages of this topic and theres one thing that everybody is missing...........there are 2 major differences in a ar 15 and a m16 bolt carrier.........one is the back part of the m16 carrier that trips the sear,the other and really the most important is the cut out around the firing pin...............m16 doesnt have the cut out ,the ar 15 does.........the reason for the cut out is if the disconector fails on the ar 15 the notch in the top of the ar 15 hammer will catch the back of the firing pin and lock everything up preventing it from firing more than one round..........now if you have a m16 hammer in a ar15 (even with the spur ground off)you run the risk of it firing more than one round because it will not catch the back of the firing pin if the disconnector fails..............this also goes for a m16 carrier in a ar 15,with no cut out around the firing pin well,if the disconnector fails it will fire more than one round........and as stated earlier in this thread a machine gun is any weapon that will fire more than one round with one pull of the trigger........now heres what happens when you put a m16 bolt carrier in a ar15 and the disconnector fails or the disconnector spring is removed......it will fire 2-5 rounds with one pull of the trigger....which constitutes a machine gun.......so trust me on this.....DO NOT PUT M16 PARTS IN A AR15.

Originally Posted By zander829: ok i just read through all 9 pages of this topic and theres one thing that everybody is missing...........there are 2 major differences in a ar 15 and a m16 bolt carrier.........one is the back part of the m16 carrier that trips the sear,the other and really the most important is the cut out around the firing pin...............m16 doesnt have the cut out ,the ar 15 does.........the reason for the cut out is if the disconector fails on the ar 15 the notch in the top of the ar 15 hammer will catch the back of the firing pin and lock everything up preventing it from firing more than one round..........now if you have a m16 hammer in a ar15 (even with the spur ground off)you run the risk of it firing more than one round because it will not catch the back of the firing pin if the disconnector fails..............this also goes for a m16 carrier in a ar 15,with no cut out around the firing pin well,if the disconnector fails it will fire more than one round........and as stated earlier in this thread a machine gun is any weapon that will fire more than one round with one pull of the trigger........now heres what happens when you put a m16 bolt carrier in a ar15 and the disconnector fails or the disconnector spring is removed......it will fire 2-5 rounds with one pull of the trigger....which constitutes a machine gun.......so trust me on this.....DO NOT PUT M16 PARTS IN A AR15.

Incorrect.

The only difference between an M16 hammer and an AR15 hammer is the spur. The spur operates with the sear.

IIRC, Colt added the cutout on the AR15 carrier as an extra safety measure, to insure against accidental slamfires. The main concern of the ATF is the added length to allow the carrier ot engage the sear. The shrouding of the firing pin in and of itself has nothign to do with it. Several manufacturers market AR15 carriers with no firing pin cutout. Why was the ATF not gone after them? Because the sear trip is what they are concerned with. At least thus far. This could change in the future.

Now, if you have an M16 carrier in an AR15 and the disconnector does fail, it is possible that a slamfire will result. Studies have shown it not very likely, as the forward motion of the hammer riding the carrier usually doesn't have enough inertia to set off the round. If it does indeed set off the round, yes, you may set off more than one round. This is because, as previosly stated, the disconnector is malfunctioning.

If, by mere disconnector malfunction, a slam fire does happen, it is through defect of a part. I.E. the rifle is damaged.

If you are driving your car, and your accelerator sticks, and you can prove this, and you get a ticket, you would most likelyget the charges dropped because this was an unforseeable act of god(provided it's an isolated incident).

Now, if you willingly and knowingly remove your disconnector, you are allowing the slam fire to occur and are illegally attempting to fire more than one round per pull of trigger.

Recap:
Is it illegal to have an M16 carrier in your AR? No.

Could you get in trouble for having M16 carrier in your AR, if your disconnector breaks and causes a slam fire? possibly, but not likely.

Would you get in trouble if you have an M16 carrier in your AR, and you remove the disconnector,
and the resulting situation allows more than one round to fire per operation of the trigger? Definitly.

Bottom line: If you want an M16 carrier, go for it. In and of itself, it's perfectly legal. But if your disconnector breaks, or you remove the disconnector, you may be in violation of the law.

I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be one on the internet. But I did stay at a holiday in once.




Ok.... i lied. I never stayed in a holiday in. I repent, and will say 10 Hail Mary's in retribution.

i agree with everything NAM said in the reply........its perfectly legal......but we have to ask ourselfs is it worth running the risk.....as he stated if you put a m16 carrier in an ar 15 and the disconnector fails it could possibly slam fire........are you breaking the law?....i say no not intentionally..........but its not for me to decide......thats up to the ATF,THE POLICE,A JUDGE,OR A JURY......for me its not worth taking that chance........and thats just MY opinion....i dont clame to be an expert or a lawyer.......but i slept on the couch last night.

Originally Posted By zander829: i agree with everything NAM said in the reply........its perfectly legal......but we have to ask ourselfs is it worth running the risk.....as he stated if you put a m16 carrier in an ar 15 and the disconnector fails it could possibly slam fire........are you breaking the law?....i say no not intentionally..........but its not for me to decide......thats up to the ATF,THE POLICE,A JUDGE,OR A JURY......for me its not worth taking that chance........and thats just MY opinion....i dont clame to be an expert or a lawyer.......but i slept on the couch last night.

Quite true. You may be taking an increased risk. It's ultimately up to every individual to decide if they think it is worth it or not. But an M16 carrier in an M16 in and of itself is not illegal.

Originally Posted By NAM: Quite true. You may be taking an increased risk. It's ultimately up to every individual to decide if they think it is worth it or not. But an M16 carrier in an M16 in and of itself is not illegal.

I would hope not, or else the BATFE would have to arrest everyone in the military who carries an M16.
That would be funny to watch.... the BATFE would get wiped out in one fell swoop.

Originally Posted By Hydguy: Originally Posted By NAM: Quite true. You may be taking an increased risk. It's ultimately up to every individual to decide if they think it is worth it or not. But an M16 carrier in an M16 in and of itself is not illegal. I would hope not, or else the BATFE would have to arrest everyone in the military who carries an M16. That would be funny to watch.... the BATFE would get wiped out in one fell swoop.

can you tell i've been workign way too much, and am on my 3rd pot of coffee in 4 hours?

But an M16 carrier in an AR15 in and of itself is not illegal.



there we go.....lol....sleep is for the weak.

Steve, many thanks for all your contributions here. I have always enjoyed your comments on the law concerning various issues.

Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA: ... IT'S REAL SIMPLE:  If you have enough parts to enable your AR to fire FA, then you have violated the code section.

... An M16 B/C in an AR15 upper, alone with the other AR15 components cannot fire full-auto.

... That is all it boils down to.

DAMN.....

I couldn't tolerate reading all 9 pages so I just read the first and last page.

I was just wondering how many people have been sent to jail or fined for having a FA bolt carrier in an AR15.

Originally Posted By Dano523: Guys, please notice the wording that I used. "Will the BATF bust your ass for having just the M-16 carrier in the rifle, can you say "Intent to create a machine gun". Remember, You can still be found guilty by "Intent to create". Not wether you got the rifle up and running.

Is learning to bump "intent to create"?

If you aren't getting a clear response from the ATF on this question, perhaps you should consider talking to your Congressional representative, especially if they are sympathetic (i.e. pro-gun).  Often, Representatives are able to elicit a more attentive response from government agencies.

I have a question........I saw on www.sportsmansguide.com, a three burst control kit, new USGI M16 parts, for sale.  They dont mention needinga permit, or paying the tax...so apparently it would be legal to won and install these parts....that is my question, can you own and install a 3 burst fire control kit???

While it is my personal opinion that use of ANY carrier would be legal provided that no other fire control components were present...

Has anyone wondered if the ATF has considered using an "Expert Witness" who is a "Bump Fire Specialist"?

Just in case. CYA

I bought a Olyimpic Arms PCR4 last year that had a m16 bolt carrier in it from the factory. Almost all the AR15's I ever owned had M16 carriers in them. I don't see really any problem with having a M16 bolt carrier in an AR15 at all. Now if you had other M16 parts installed that would be another matter. Thanks Arvin

Tweak,
If it was milled back, it wasn't milled back very far. It was M16 carrier. It had the firing pin shroud and the lower part of the bolt wasn't like the SP1 carriers I have seen. It was full length. It could just be a mistake that it was sent out that way. Thanks Arvin

Originally Posted By Arvin: Tweak, If it was milled back, it wasn't milled back very far. It was M16 carrier. It had the firing pin shroud and the lower part of the bolt wasn't like the SP1 carriers I have seen. It was full length. It could just be a mistake that it was sent out that way. Thanks Arvin

It's not an M16 carrier.  I got a carrier in an Oly factory rifle that is very similar to an M16 carrier.  It is milled back only very slightly, much less than usual on an AR15 carrier, however it is milled back far enough not to function with an auto sear.  It only takes a very light bit of milling to do this anyway, so I don't understand why other companies mill so much material out in the first place.  The firing pin was shrouded on mine as well.  I got another in an Oly factory upper that is the same way.  This was three or four years ago for both the rifle and the upper.

It is illegal, but it might work, same goes for M16 lower parts with a ar15 bolt, itll probably work.

Originally Posted By nf9648: It is illegal, but it might work, same goes for M16 lower parts with a ar15 bolt, itll probably work.

lol.....


did you read anything in the last 10 pages?

Originally Posted By NAM: Originally Posted By nf9648: It is illegal, but it might work, same goes for M16 lower parts with a ar15 bolt, itll probably work. lol..... did you read anything in the last 10 pages?

Hell no, too much for my brain to compute, not enough beer to keep my attention span on the words.

Originally Posted By Steve-in-VA: At least he's honest.

lol...no kidding

Wow.  10 pages for what should have been a very simple question.

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Wow.  10 pages for what should have been a very simple question.

lol....half the posts on this thread were of that variety. Some people think that because the law is plain and simple, there must be some fine print somewhere that we are missing. lol...

BATFE's position is not the LAW!

There is a letter!!!(sort of)
I remember reading on a BATF FAQ page where someone asked if it was OK to use an M16 carrier in an AR15 with the infamous Colt reciever block (I realize the block would have to be ground down slightly for it to work).  They said it was OK since with the block you couldn't insert an auto sear.  I realize the crux of this discussion is unblocked recievers and I don't think in their response they mentioned them.  I concur that probably no AR15 ever left the factory with an M16 carrier since my 1964 SP1 (serial #6xx) has a carrier that has the lower portion (the part that trips the autosear) milled away ever so slightly.  My belief always has been(and still is even after reading this entire thread) that if it doesn't fire more that once for each pull of the trigger it is NOT a machine gun.  How about M1 carbines???  They are only a few parts away from being M2 carbines.  Are those M2 carbine parts legal?  By the way, just an observation: I see M16 parts for sale by the thousands at every gun show I attend (including actual M16 autosears).  If posession of these parts is a crime a whole lot of people are going up the river for a long time.  

Originally Posted By Tweak: Maybe I should remove the link to it in the FAQ

No its good..... so that it doesnt keep coming up in NEW threads.  Then I think my head would explode.    After 10 pages, what new could really be added to this argument?

Hey FARLARK:
What's wrong? Can't someone else give his two cents worth? As far as I know I'm still a member of this forum.  If you don't like it maybe you shouldn't read it any more and complain to the moderator.  I think the Foreward Assist vs. No foreward Assist debate went even longer and was far less educational

Originally Posted By KurtVF: Hey FARLARK: What's wrong? Can't someone else give his two cents worth? As far as I know I'm still a member of this forum.  If you don't like it maybe you shouldn't read it any more and complain to the moderator.  I think the Foreward Assist vs. No foreward Assist debate went even longer and was far less educational

You're welocme to give your opinion, but he can slam you for it. The internet is like that, I guess. Any time you put a thought out there electronically you open yourself up to it.

-

So, is it legal?!?

Took me three sessions and a threatened divorce but I got through all of this.

Since no one has yet answered the question of why competetion shooters like the FA BC, I will...

The heavier FA BC is believed by many to make the bolt open more slowly (increasing dwell time if you want to be technical).  Since bolt opening is slower, the chamber pressure is lower during extraction and this decreases the likelihood of blowing primers.  

The added weight also dampens recoil during rapid fire stages...

dcat

Is it OK to use M16 ammo in my AR15

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander: Is it OK to use M16 ammo in my AR15

An M16  carrier in an AR15 is legal.

However, M16 ammo in an AR15 IS HIGHLY FORBIDDEN!!

I'll do ya a favor, send me all your M193/196 and M855/M856 ammo, and i'll be nice and not rat you out to the new M16 Bolt Carrier Enforcement Agency.