AR15.Com Mobile
BROWNELLS VORTEX SWFA CMMG DPMS SKD DEL-TON MI AIM RRA VERIFORCE
GEISSELE FSI MAGPUL STAG JT BLUE FORCE GEAR RAINIER LARUE DSG PK
» 0 Online
M16 bolt in AR15?
FNMI_Rifleman  [Member]
I am wanting to put an M16 bolt carrier in my AR15, I would think I would get better reliability from a heavier bolt carrier. As long as i have no other m16 parts in my ar, would this be legal?
Paid Advertisement
Legal-Transfers  [Industry Partner]
NO NOT LEGAL


Pete in NH
Ar15sniper01  [Member]
you will go to jail
TommyBrown  [Member]
I see this routinely with DCM shooters using Chromed old M16 carriers without
FWD assits notches to maximize weight. A tungsten insert into the open rear end will work also.
NAM  [Team Member]
So, We've got one educated No. We've got one unexplained no, and one "yes it's being done". Anyone else have any thoughts/ proof? My interpretation, althought probably wrong, was that if the part you ass causes the weapon to function as an Auto, it would be illegal. So, An auto sear? illegal. Auto fire control parts? illegal. But i honestly don't see how an M16 bolt carrier would make your gun a full auto. might make it a slam fire easier, but not a full auto in itself. Thoughts?
M4_Aiming_at_U  [Team Member]
Considering how many LEO's out there don't know the difference between pre-ban features and post ban features. I surely doubt they know the difference between an auto bolt carrier or a semi one!
Circuits  [Member]
From a strict legal standpoint, if the resultant weapon does not fire automatically, and is not drilled for an auto sear (making it a machinegun by definition) there is no law prohibiting the installation of an M16 bolt carrier in an AR-15.

The position of the ATF, as stated in their public and private correspondence, is that if you install an M16 carrier in an AR-15, they can make it function as a machinegun.

If you are worried that ATF might come after you, and work their magic on your AR, then don't install an M16 carrier.

If you're not worried that ATF will target you, then do what you like, other than drilling your lower for an autosear.

Until and unless ATF demonstrates to a court, as part of a prosecution, that your AR fires more than one shot with a single pull/release of the trigger, you're within the law to install any parts in your AR-15 or clone that you like.

Most manufacturers and even owners choose not to roll the dice in regards to ATF maybe targeting them, but it's not illegal per se to install any parts, AR-15 or M16 in derivation, in your rifle, provided that the resultant firearm does not fire automatically or have the autosear hole.
Steve-in-VA  [Site Staff]

Originally Posted By Pete-in-NH:
NO NOT LEGAL


Pete in NH



Wrong, not the law.



Originally Posted By Ar15sniper01:
you will go to jail



Wrong again, not the law.

I feel like a broken record. The Federal Code section is really, REALLY clear, to-wit: so long as the part, or parts, do not allow your rifle to fire FA (or double fires) then you do not have an UNREGISTERED MG. There is no law, not even an ATF reg, that says you may not have an M16 bolt carrier in your AR. They say, as do I, that you SHOULD not stockpile mg parts since, obviously, you could assemble enough to create, in your semi-auto rifle, an MG. But, so long is that is all you have and it does not allow FA fire, you are ok.

To see more on this, do a search in this forum.
Steve-in-VA  [Site Staff]

Originally Posted By Circuits:

The position of the ATF, as stated in their public and private correspondence, is that if you install an M16 carrier in an AR-15, they can make it function as a machinegun.




I've never seen this; although I hear it all the time. Do you have a letter? If you do, it contradicts letters I've seen and posted on this forum. I don't believe one exists.
NAM  [Team Member]
Steve,

That's exactly what i understood. Now a question: do you have any sort of letter or documentation? I jsut like to keep a hardcopy of info like this on hand in the event i get questioned.
Circuits  [Member]
www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter52.txt is an example of the wording ATF uses in regards to AR-15's and M16 parts.

Perhaps my previous statement was too strong - in that the ATF recommends against installing any M16 parts in an AR-15, but don't out and out say they can make your AR-15 fire automatically with an M16 carrier - at least not among the letters at bardwell's archive.

As for being able to make AR-15's with an M16 carrier, or some other M16 parts fire automatically, the exact reference was in a memorandum discussing one of the court cases. I am unable to locate the specific reference at this time.
m60308nato  [Member]
Any m16 parts in an ar15 rifle is illegal and makes it a machine gun, weather it fires more then one shot per trigger pull is irrelevant.
.
Steve-in-VA  [Site Staff]

Originally Posted By m60308nato:
Any m16 parts in an ar15 rifle is illegal and makes it a machine gun, weather it fires more then one shot per trigger pull is irrelevant.
.



Bullshit. That's just plain wrong; read the code section. I get so sick of ppl spouting disinformation on this and other boards.

Circuits,

That is exactly what the letters say- they recommend not stockpiling. Reason? So you don't possess enough to enable your semi-auto to fire FA. That court case you refer to, I believe, is a case where the disconnector had been modified to allow for double fires with an M16 BC. Under that scenario, you have a problem. However, without any further alterations to your AR parts, you WILL NOT obtain doubling or FA with just an M16 BC.

Nam,

There are letters that support everything I wrote above- do a search in this forum for "M16 parts" and you'll find threads with links to the letters. Actually, if you read Circuits link, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

For example: Thus, an AR-15 rifle possessed with separate M-16 machinegun
components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle
shoots automatically when the components are installed.


That's a big "if". Section section 5845(b) is really clear.
Ar15sniper01  [Member]
MY ANSWER IS IF YA DONT KNOW ..OR HAVE PROOF...IT WILL BE YOUR ASS IF YOU ARE WRONG...I have always heard if any part is USGI m-16 it is illegal....I dont have the time to wait on the court of appeals to decide if the ATF is correct in arresting you and I don't like bail bondsmen or trying to hire attorneys or Jail food...SO WHY RISK IT? JUST GET A GOOD QUALITY CROME BOLTCARRIER ASSEMBLY.And be happy with no having the stressfull question of "if Im leagal or not"????
ProfGAB101  [Team Member]
History Question:

Since a friend of mine bought a Colt AR back in 1979 - and it had a "M16" carrier in it new out of box. - I want to ask this question.

When AR's first hit the public market were all Bolt carriers the same? If so at what point did they switch to an SP1 config.
Steve-in-VA  [Site Staff]

Originally Posted By Ar15sniper01:
MY ANSWER IS IF YA DONT KNOW ..OR HAVE PROOF...IT WILL BE YOUR ASS IF YOU ARE WRONG...I have always heard if any part is USGI m-16 it is illegal....I dont have the time to wait on the court of appeals to decide if the ATF is correct in arresting you and I don't like bail bondsmen or trying to hire attorneys or Jail food...SO WHY RISK IT? JUST GET A GOOD QUALITY CROME BOLTCARRIER ASSEMBLY.And be happy with no having the stressfull question of "if Im leagal or not"????



That's the problem with misinformation, to-wit: it's always "I have heard . . ."

I'm not flaming anyone, just the misinformation. You heard wrong. Read Section 5845(b, it's clear. Read the ATF letters, they are clear. What you "heard" is wrong and not supported by either. You do not need to wait on a court to decide anything; there is NO ambiguity in the law and there's no reason to be "stressfull" about breaking a law for which you are not in violation.

I do agree with your statement, "why risk it?". I say over and over that it serves no purpose, so why do it? With that said, statements like "I think it's illegal", "you will go to jail" or "ATF thinks it's illegal" are baseless, specious and foster unnecessary paranoia.
m60308nato  [Member]
First of all it IS illegal to have any m16 part in your AR15 end of story. That's why you need a tax stamp (form4) or you have to be law enforcement or military to EVEN BUY THESE PARTS FROM A FACTORY. Sure you can buy them on auction's but that doesn't make it legal for you to stick it in your AR15, or to even own if you have an ar15.

ANY M16 PART in your AR15 makes it illegal. M16 parts can be the trigger, selector, hammer, hammer spring, 2 disconnects, the sear, sear pin, and the bolt carrier. also the 3 shot burst wheel thats on the hammer pin.(forgot what it's called)

the only way I can see you getting away with having an m16 bolt carrier in your weapon is if your gun is an early SP1 and it came with one in it. Then you can cry I didn't know all you want but Ignorance of the law is no excuse you can still be prosecuted.
Steve-in-VA  [Site Staff]
I'm not going to argue with absolute blind ignorance. Did you even read the statute? Any of the ATF letters? Tell you what, you believe whatever you want if it makes you sleep better at night, however, don't spout bullshit misinformation in this forum, OK?

BTW, you need Form 4 approval to own a REGISTERED MG, not a part. One MG part does not an unregistered MG make. MG parts, if in combination with your AR, that allow you to fire your AR FA is a violation of the statute. See the difference yet?
Clay-More  [Team Member]
Steve-in-VA,

It's obvious that some of our fellow AR15.com members are afflicted with high-foreheads and thick tongues. Can you ban people for illiteracy and/or stupidity?
m60308nato  [Member]
ok talk shit about me asshole when you are wrong dip shit.

Having any m16 parts in your ar15 constitutes ownership of an illegal machine gun.

And if you would read what I sad you fucking moron I said you need a form4 to order the parts from a factory/manufacturer. AND YOU DO NEED A FORM4 TO ORDER THE PARTS STRAIGHT FROM THE FACTORY.

Maybe you should do a little reading before you come in here and tell people its legal to commit a felony you asshole.
m60308nato  [Member]
let me ask you something, why would there be a differance between an AR15 bolt carrier and a m16 bolt carrier if THE M16 bolt carrier is not illegal to put in your AR15?

dumbass
Forest  [Member]

Originally Posted By m60308nato:
ok talk shit about me asshole when you are wrong dip shit.


Wrong answer Troll. This sort of BS is not tolorated on this board. Especially to a moderator.



Having any m16 parts in your ar15 constitutes ownership of an illegal machine gun.


Other than your ignorant opinion, can you cite the regulation, law, or case that indicates that?

I thought not.



And if you would read what I sad


Sad? Yes you are sad (as in pathetic). However if you mean "Said" then what does that prove?

Answer: Zero-Zip-Nada.

The rantings of an anonymous poster (who doesn't even use his real name) are meaningless.

Steve is the moderator and a Lawyer to boot. Where did you go to law school and where is your practice? (Note Steve cited the law - something you have yet to do).

Uh-huh so you haven't graduated high school yet - I see. Why don't you get back to your school work and let the adults have their discussion on legal issues.



I said you need a form4 to order the parts from a factory/manufacturer.
[/qote]
No you don't. Some places do require one - but its their company policy - not the law. I know of several places where you can buy them cash-n-carry its perfectly legal.


Maybe you should do a little reading before you come in here and tell people its legal to commit a felony.



Well Steve is a Laywer - what are your credentials other than being a potty-mouth little boy? You are the one that needs to do the reading - start with the links Circuits provided and the ones that are posted elsewhere in this forum. Of course if someone is reading this to you - I suggest you get your GED before logging onto the internet.
m60308nato  [Member]
HERE you go you fucking prick right off bushmaster's web sight. I wont go wade into the BS on the ATF's page.

A Bushmaster Statement Regarding Machinegun PARTS

BATF's position is that if your AR15 type rifle contains even one M16 component, it is a Machine Gun. If you own an AR15 from any manufacturer, check to make sure there are no M16 components in its assembly. If there are, remove them immediately; machine them to AR configuration or have them replaced and destroy the M16 components. Refer to the illustrations below to determine if you have M16 components in your assemblies. If you have any questions about your parts, give us a call and we'll be glad to supply you with the legally acceptable parts.

www.bushmaster.com/shopping/lowers/individual_parts_for_lower_receivers.asp

Steve-in-VA  [Site Staff]
Wow, the kid can cut and paste! You've got promise. Yes, that is the same mistatement of law AND the ATF's position that they have posted for years. Is that it? Are you relying on Bushmaster as your legal authority? Next you'll be telling us "cause mommy said so!"


Hey M60308 guy, rather than wallow in ignorance by posting your demonstration of same over and over in this thread, why don't you read 5845(b) of the National Firearms Act?

PS: And watch the insults.
Steve-in-VA  [Site Staff]

Originally Posted By m60308nato:
HERE you go you fucking prick right off bushmaster's web sight.



That is truly sad. You are either too lazy or lack the cognitive skills to simply look the law up yourself


I wont go wade into the BS on the ATF's page.


Why? 'Cause it will prove you and Bushmaster wrong? ATF takes NO SUCH POSITION. Why? Because the law is as I have stated- the polar opposite of your dribble.

Here, straight from Mr. Ownes' March 25, 1999 letter:

Thus, an AR-15 rifle possessed with separate M-16 machinegun
components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle
shoots automatically when the components are installed.


m60308nato  [Member]
I will always trust the manufacturer of the firearm over any idiot who said otherwise.
Paid Advertisement