How do I fix a collapsible stock legally? - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How do I fix a collapsible stock legally?

Posted: 5/14/2008 11:41:45 AM EDT

?

Posted: 5/14/2008 12:32:11 PM EDT

[#1]

Anyway you want, as long as it doesn't collapse.

No law stating how and you'll get multiple opinions on it. Do you mean to ask "How do I fix a collapsible stock so that THE MAN doesn't put me in cuffs"?

Posted: 5/14/2008 12:43:43 PM EDT

[#2]

I might be wrong, but I thought according to the ATF. that it was to be glued and pinned?

Posted: 5/14/2008 1:11:48 PM EDT

[#3]

Cool that's what I wanted.

I'm taking the latch off and glueing the pin in.

I know ATF was stricter on muzzle brakes in regads to gorilla glue, so I had to check.

Now I can pop an emod on my LAR-308.

buffer tube problem solved.

Posted: 5/14/2008 3:18:43 PM EDT

[#4]

AFAIK the ATF never approved a "do it yourself" method to fix a collapsible stock. They held the opinion that if you could get the stock to move without destroying it in the process it was still considered collapsible. Any manufacturer that requested an opinion letter was required to submit several fixed stock samples which they destroyed as part of the testing protocol.

As is the case in other areas there are factory fixed fake stocks available if you want the look of a collapsible stock. I realize there are other reasons to fix a collapsible stock but anyone in NYS that fixes a collapsible stock is once again on their own.

Posted: 5/14/2008 3:32:52 PM EDT

[#5]

I recently purchased a new Bushmaster 'M4' Type Post ban, here in NY(Long Island) from a gun dealer. This rifle is specifically made for states where there is still a ban, like NY. The 6 position stock is drilled and tapped, and also drilled and pinned(from the factory - making it 'NON -Collapsable'. here are some pics , you can do this yourself.

Posted: 5/14/2008 3:43:30 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
I recently purchased a new Bushmaster 'M4' Type Post ban, here in NY(Long Island) from a gun dealer. This rifle is specifically made for states where there is still a ban, like NY. The 6 position stock is drilled and tapped, and also drilled and pinned(from the factory - making it 'NON -Collapsable'. here are some pics , you can do this yourself.

Are you sure Bushmaster pinned the stock? It's possible that they have an ATF opinion letter on file but even if that's the case it only applies to that specific stock using the specific method and identical parts BM used.

You also need to keep in mind that even if ATF approved the BM method/parts used there is no guarantee that it would not be considered a collapsible stock as manufactured in NY.

Posted: 5/14/2008 4:13:33 PM EDT

[#7]

BM uses full length extensions.

Posted: 5/14/2008 4:14:05 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Are you sure Bushmaster pinned the stock? It's possible that they have an ATF opinion letter on file but even if that's the case it only applies to that specific stock using the specific method and identical parts BM used.

You also need to keep in mind that even if ATF approved the BM method/parts used there is no guarantee that it would not be considered a collapsible stock as manufactured in NY.

Yes, Bushmaster pinned the stock, here is a diret link to this rifle on Bushmasters website.Bushmasters website

This description is taken directly from Bushmaster's website:

This Bushmaster model offers features that make it legal for sale in States where restrictions similar to the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 are still in place. A 14.5” chrome lined M4 Type Barrel with a permanently attached “Izzy” Brake yields a 16” overall length (BATF legal) barrel. The Buttstock is a fixed length “Tele-style”unit, but it is not collapsible in order to conform with those regulations. Magazine capacity is limted to 10 Rounds, and the Bayonet Lug is milled off on this “Post-Ban” model.

Posted: 5/14/2008 4:27:20 PM EDT

[#9]

Every BM fixed M4 stock that I've seen has a full length extension. PICS TO FOLLOW. The pinned stock above was not done by BM.

ETA:

Posted: 5/14/2008 4:38:06 PM EDT

[#10]

Yes , my stock was pinned by Bushmaster. When I bought the rifle, the dealer just recieved the shipment that same day, they opened the shipping package in front of me. This is how the stock comes from Bushamster. I called Bushmaster to find out how I would change LOP on this stock, they told me all I had to do was drill out the other side of the stock, and use a punch, repostion where I want it, then re-drill and re-pin.
Also the bolt would need to be re-installed in new postion, by drilling and re-tapping.

My Bushmaster M4 type Post ban was purchased this year(2008) if that makes a difference. Perhaps this is Bushmasters new method.

Posted: 5/14/2008 4:50:55 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Every BM fixed M4 stock that I've seen has a full length extension. PICS TO FOLLOW. The pinned stock above was not done by BM.

The 2001 ARFCOM LEGP RRA M4 stock uses the same fixed length (not pinned) M4 stock that's in your pics. We originally wanted the six position stock pinned at a specified length but RRA said they could not legally do that. The phony (not a brake) A2 flash suppressor is also attached using a spline instead of a threaded barrel.

Posted: 5/14/2008 4:51:04 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Yes , my stock was pinned by Bushmaster. When I bought the rifle, the dealer just recieved the shipment that same day, they opened the shipping package in front of me. This is how the stock comes from Bushamster. I called Bushmaster to find out how I would change LOP on this stock, they told me all I had to do was drill out the other side of the stock, and use a punch, repostion where I want it, then re-drill and re-pin.
Also the bolt would need to be re-installed in new postion, by drilling and re-tapping.

My Bushmaster M4 type Post ban was purchased this year(2008) if that makes a difference. Perhaps this is Bushmasters new method.

Are you saying that they now use a car length extension and do that UGLY pin job as pictured above? Please take a picture of the rear of the stock and get the logo in the pic, like this >

Posted: 5/14/2008 4:55:07 PM EDT

[#13]

Yes they did that pin job, as far as the buffer tube it is full length? Just curious, what would the length of the buffer tube have to do with pining to fix a stock? I'll go take a pic now.

Posted: 5/14/2008 4:56:54 PM EDT

[#14]

If you unpin and shorten the stock, the ~~buffer tube~~ receiver extension will stick out the end, making it useless.

ETA: While your at it, what is the SKU # on the end of the box? I suspect it starts with "BCWA" not "PCWA".

Posted: 5/14/2008 5:11:20 PM EDT

[#15]

Are there any companies that will pin stocks? I'm not too fond of the stocks above, but would love a pinned Magpul

.

Posted: 5/14/2008 5:11:25 PM EDT

[#16]

The stock on my rifle was not fixed so that the reciever extension was flush with the end of the stock. it wasn't comfortable for me, and I had 'room' for adjustment

.
The receiver tube was about an inch in from back of the stock. hope this is clear now.

So I repositioned my stock so that the extension tube is flush with the end of the stock now. All I did was take small drill bit that fit through the roll pin and drilled through the plastic on the other side of the stock, then using a punch I tapped the pins out, I repositioned the stock so that the extension tube is flush with the end of the stock(shortening this particular LOP) marked the holes to be drilled , removed the stock, then drilled the new holes through the extension tube. I reinstalled the stock and tapped the pins into the new locations. My holes on the other side of the stock was much cleaner than the ones bushmaster did.

The pins that bushmaster used were cheap, they had burrs inside, you can see this in the pic.

Posted: 5/14/2008 5:16:46 PM EDT

[#17]

It could be Bushmaster has finally run out of the full length tubes, and rather than make more, is just pinning them.

Posted: 5/14/2008 5:17:43 PM EDT

[#18]

here are the pics

Posted: 5/14/2008 5:26:27 PM EDT

[#19]

Your extension is definitely not CAR length. Can't tell from the pic what the difference would be between full and yours. 1"?

I do have to say that STAG has sent me a version in between the full and CAR. So I guess BM is doing that now.

ETA: Oh yeah, the pics I showed uses a full length buffer. And yours, I guess is the CAR length. Should have cleared that up earlier.

Posted: 5/14/2008 5:53:06 PM EDT

[#20]

So no verdict.

Posted: 5/14/2008 6:21:53 PM EDT

[#21]

ETA: While your at it, what is the SKU # on the end of the box? I suspect it starts with "BCWA" not "PCWA".

PCWA2X_14M4IZ

Posted: 5/14/2008 6:28:27 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
So no verdict.

Maybe call a gun shop

Posted: 5/14/2008 8:55:03 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Maybe call a gun shop

Oh.. now that's funny.

Posted: 5/15/2008 6:13:55 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Yes , my stock was pinned by Bushmaster. When I bought the rifle, the dealer just recieved the shipment that same day, they opened the shipping package in front of me. This is how the stock comes from Bushamster. I called Bushmaster to find out how I would change LOP on this stock, they told me all I had to do was drill out the other side of the stock, and use a punch, repostion where I want it, then re-drill and re-pin.
Also the bolt would need to be re-installed in new postion, by drilling and re-tapping.

My Bushmaster M4 type Post ban was purchased this year(2008) if that makes a difference. Perhaps this is Bushmasters new method.

You just demonstrated why it's extremely unlikely that ATF approved that method to fix a stock while the Federal AWB was in effect.

Posted: 5/15/2008 6:34:07 AM EDT

[#25]

That's just downright baffling.

Wouldn't it then be true that according to that definition if I could put a A2 stock and A1 stock on the same rifle receiver extension without destroying it than that would be a collapsible stock?

Any permanent-ation method can be undone somehow.

Posted: 5/15/2008 6:41:14 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yes , my stock was pinned by Bushmaster. When I bought the rifle, the dealer just recieved the shipment that same day, they opened the shipping package in front of me. This is how the stock comes from Bushamster. I called Bushmaster to find out how I would change LOP on this stock, they told me all I had to do was drill out the other side of the stock, and use a punch, repostion where I want it, then re-drill and re-pin.
Also the bolt would need to be re-installed in new postion, by drilling and re-tapping.

My Bushmaster M4 type Post ban was purchased this year(2008) if that makes a difference. Perhaps this is Bushmasters new method.

You just demonstrated why it's extremely unlikely that ATF approved that method to fix a stock while the Federal AWB was in effect.

The same could be thought with blind pinning and welding a muzzle device. You can use the same drill to drill the weld and pin and remove the device , and use the same tools to install a new one ( plus a welder ).

Just about any "ban" modification that can be performed with tools can just as easily be undone with other tools.

The point here really is that the stock is rendered inoperable as a collapsing stock and that without sitting down at a workbench with implements of destruction , it's not going to collapse ( meaning you cant flip this gadget , slide this thingie out and whamm-o , I just made my stock a different length at the firing range ).

The fact is , as we know it , there are few clear cut rules as to how stay within the law on most of the crap we want to do to our rifles. I would think that if you do the right thing and make it as permanent as you can , you should be fine.

Just my opinion though.

Posted: 5/15/2008 7:02:14 AM EDT

[#27]

How about this tack (very talmudic

):

IIRC olyarmshad a detachable stock rifle during the ban.

Following that precedent, I could just dremel out all the stock positions on a carbine buffer tube except the first one and then take off the stock hinge and glue in the pin into the remaining stock-position hople to keep it there.

The stock would then be a fixed stock (cause of the glue and no latch mechanism), and if they were able to get it loose it would then only be a detachable stock not a collapsing stock as the stock would not be able to move any farther 'in' and if you were to pull it out it would just come off- making it a detachable stock.

?

Posted: 5/15/2008 7:18:59 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
The same could be thought with blind pinning and welding a muzzle device. You can use the same drill to drill the weld and pin and remove the device , and use the same tools to install a new one ( plus a welder ).

Just about any "ban" modification that can be performed with tools can just as easily be undone with other tools.

If the blind pin muzzle device method is done correctly you shouldn't know the location of the blind pin. In addition the pin is supposed to be hardened and resistant to drilling. The ATF also used different standards for muzzle extensions and devices then for collapsible stocks. No one knows what the standards are for NY because they don't exist. The best you can do is to be in strict compliance with the standards that the ATF developed. If you deviate and/or make up your own version of the standard you are on your own. You will no longer be able to demonstrate that you were at least in compliance with the Federal AWB. Since the NYS AWB is a mirror of the federal AWB you won't have a leg to stand on.

Quoted:
The point here really is that the stock is rendered inoperable as a collapsing stock and that without sitting down at a workbench with implements of destruction , it's not going to collapse ( meaning you cant flip this gadget , slide this thingie out and whamm-o , I just made my stock a different length at the firing range ).

The fact is , as we know it , there are few clear cut rules as to how stay within the law on most of the crap we want to do to our rifles. I would think that if you do the right thing and make it as permanent as you can , you should be fine.

Just my opinion though.

You're welcome to be the test case. Do you have a spare 100k and a year of your life to try and prove your point? If you're wrong you'll be a convicted felon rotting in states prison and your chances of vacating your conviction on appeal will be slim to none.

My last post in this thread as there is no definitive answer to the original question. You guys need to either stop

and accept the fact that NY has restrictive gun laws or move to free state.

Posted: 5/15/2008 7:20:00 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

The same could be thought with blind pinning and welding a muzzle device. You can use the same drill to drill the weld and pin and remove the device , and use the same tools to install a new one ( plus a welder ).

Just about any "ban" modification that can be performed with tools can just as easily be undone with other tools.

The point here really is that the stock is rendered inoperable as a collapsing stock and that without sitting down at a workbench with implements of destruction , it's not going to collapse ( meaning you cant flip this gadget , slide this thingie out and whamm-o , I just made my stock a different length at the firing range ).

The fact is , as we know it , there are few clear cut rules as to how stay within the law on most of the crap we want to do to our rifles. I would think that if you do the right thing and make it as permanent as you can , you should be fine.

Just my opinion though.

Exactly! Even my 'permanantly attached muzzle brake can be remove on a bench with tools. NYS AWB say's you cant have a folding or collapsible stock. By pining the 'tele style' stock, it becomes NON-collapsible.

Posted: 5/15/2008 7:47:01 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The same could be thought with blind pinning and welding a muzzle device. You can use the same drill to drill the weld and pin and remove the device , and use the same tools to install a new one ( plus a welder ).

Just about any "ban" modification that can be performed with tools can just as easily be undone with other tools.

The point here really is that the stock is rendered inoperable as a collapsing stock and that without sitting down at a workbench with implements of destruction , it's not going to collapse ( meaning you cant flip this gadget , slide this thingie out and whamm-o , I just made my stock a different length at the firing range ).

The fact is , as we know it , there are few clear cut rules as to how stay within the law on most of the crap we want to do to our rifles. I would think that if you do the right thing and make it as permanent as you can , you should be fine.

Just my opinion though.

Exactly! Even my 'permanantly attached muzzle brake can be remove on a bench with tools. NYS AWB say's you cant have a folding or collapsible stock. By pining the 'tele style' stock, it becomes NON-collapsible.

quick follow up