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Could not find the thread where spreadfirearms filed a complaint on an APD officer after a traffic stop. What happened to it?

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Wow, go to bed for a few hours and bam, gone. Shame as I was very interested in the outcome. When did the trolling start?

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 soowah trashed it due to unpleasant escalations (short of a duel) and I agreed with him.

On 9/7/09 at approximately 3:30 pm I, Steve Ou, was the front seat passenger of a Honda Accord being driven by [driver].  [driver] is the registered owner of this vehicle and I was the only other occupant in the vehicle.  We had left Cabela’s in Buda and were driving northbound on IH-35 and exited on Ben White Blvd.

We were on the N/B feeder road of IH-35 and were in the #1 N/B lane.  The light cycled to green and we went with the traffic, which slowed to a complete stop at the IH-35/Ben White Blvd. interchange.  We ended up blocking the left turn lane from E/B Ben White to N/H IH-35 for approximately 15 seconds as traffic was able to flow again N/B.  We were blocking a marked APD Patrol Car.

The APD Patrol Car followed us onto W/B Ben White Blvd. where it activated its emergency lights and stopped us.  [driver] pulled the Honda into the parking lot at the N/W corner of IH-35 and Ben White Blvd. just east of the Wal-Mart.

APD Officer [officer] #[badge # of officer] contacted [driver] and told him his name and agency and asked for [driver]’s driver license and insurance.  [driver] evidently showed [officer] his Texas Driver License and Concealed Handgun License (CHL).  [officer] asked [driver] if he was armed and [driver] answered in the affirmative, and told [officer] that the pistol was on his right hip under his shirt.  

[officer] ordered [driver] to step out of the car and immediately handcuffed [driver], although [driver] offered no resistance.  [officer] only removed [driver]’s handgun and holster but did not search [driver] for any other weapons.  This is evident by the fact that [officer] did not locate a pistol magazine that was on [driver]’s opposite hip.  [officer] then told [driver] to open the Honda’s trunk so he could secure [driver]’s pistol inside it.  [driver] refused to allow access to the trunk and said that [officer] would not have permission to search the trunk or vehicle.  [driver] offered an alternative where [officer] could place the weapon inside his own patrol car if necessary.  [officer] immediately questioned [driver] as to why he would not allow access to the trunk.  [driver] told him that the 4th Amendment protected him from unlawful searches.  [officer] then escorted [driver] to the front of the patrol car.  I could hear [officer] question [driver] as to the contents inside the trunk.  I could hear [driver] state he had no guns, drugs, or anything illegal in the trunk.

[officer] then re-approached the vehicle.  I handed [officer] my Texas Driver License and Concealed Handgun License (CHL) and informed him that I too was lawfully armed.  [officer] had me step out of the vehicle and also placed me in handcuffs.  I told him I had a gun on my right hip and a pocketknife clipped to my right front pant pocket.  [officer] took both from me and after a few seconds came back and removed the handcuffs from me.  Note [officer] did not complete a pat down for weapons on me as well, as I still had possession of a pistol magazine inside my left front pants pocket which he never took from me from the entire contact.

He asked me why [driver] would not let him in the trunk. I replied that I had no idea what was in [driver]’s trunk and pointed to two shopping bags containing items that I purchased at Cabela’s earlier on the right rear passenger seat.  I told him that since my bags were there it was quite apparent that I did not place them in the trunk so I had no idea what was in the trunk.  I told [officer] that if he believed there were drugs in the trunk to call for a police dog and sniff the car but that I had no idea what was inside it or the vehicle.

[officer] eventually took the handcuffs off of [driver] and had both of us sit in the Honda.  It appeared [officer] was in his patrol car, seated inside, writing out a traffic citation.  At no time did any backup officer appear, so it appeared that he never called for backup assistance.

I believed that [officer] was writing [driver] a citation because [driver] refused a consent search of his vehicle and that [officer] was being punitive.  I also believed [officer] to be excessive in his overzealousness to search the vehicle when he had no probable cause to do so and unprofessional in handcuffing us when we presented no threat.  At this time I called APD 311 and asked a dispatcher to send [officer]’s supervisor to the scene of the traffic stop.  I gave APD 311 my name, phone number, [driver]’s name, the description of [driver]’s car, and our location.

[officer] returned to the vehicle with a citation for [driver].  I informed [officer] that I had called APD Dispatch and requested that his supervisor show up.  [officer] got on the radio and verified this.  [driver] then signed the citation and was given a copy of it.

I then exited the vehicle and asked [officer] if we were under legal detention still and if we were free to go.  [officer] answered that we were no longer under legal detention.  At this point I demanded that he give me back my gun and knife as he no longer had authority to hold my property.  [officer] replied that since I was waiting at the scene to speak to his supervisor, he had the authority to hold my property from me.  [officer] further said that if I opted to leave and not speak to his supervisor then he would give me my property back.  I told [officer] that I needed to stay at the scene to meet his supervisor and that since I was not under legal detention that he had no authority to keep my property.  Again, [officer] refused to give me back my property stating that he believed that I may try to hurt him.  I told [officer] that I had just called APD Dispatch and gave them my name and phone number and in fact requested another police officer (supervisor) to come to the scene.  I told him that if I intended to hurt him, I would not have offered up identifying information to their dispatch and then requested an additional officer to respond.  I offered [officer] to unload the weapons and put them in [driver]’s vehicle and lock it and hold onto the car keys, but again he refused.  I then demanded that [officer] either return my property or seize them and give me a property receipt.  Again he refused.  I told [officer] if he was so afraid of us then he could leave the scene and then return when his supervisor returned and search us to ensure we had left the weapons in the vehicle.  [officer] refused to leave the scene and said that the only way we could get our property back was to decline to see his supervisor and leave the scene.

Approximately 15 minutes later, [supervisor] #[badge # of supervisor] arrived, who was the supervisor called.  [supervisor] listened to [driver] first, then me.  I told [supervisor] that [officer] had no right to keep my property when the detention ended.  [supervisor] quoted “officer safety” and said that [officer] could hold my weapons indefinitely.  I told him that this was incorrect but [supervisor] maintained he knew the law.  I compared it to APD officers entering Wal-Mart (pointing over at Wal-Mart next door) and taking everyone’s legally carried gun in the premises when nobody was being legally detained in the name of “officer safety.”  [supervisor] replied that since Wal-Mart sells alcohol nobody can legally carry a firearm inside Wal-Mart with a CHL.  I told [supervisor] he was totally wrong and that it was shocking to me that an APD supervisor would have such a bad working knowledge of the law.

[supervisor] then asked me why he was called to the scene.  I told him I wanted to file a complaint on [officer].  [supervisor] gave me his own business card and wrote down the number to the Office of the Police Monitor.  I told him that nowhere on his card was [officer]’s name or badge number.  [supervisor] then obtained the information for me.  At this point the contact was clearly abandoned by all parties voluntarily.

Again we demanded our property back.  [officer] ordered both [driver] and me to get inside the Honda and he would put the property in the trunk and warned us not to get them until he left.  [driver] again objected to [officer]’s multiple attempts to dupe [driver] into opening the trunk.  [driver] also told [officer] that since we were no longer under legal detention that [officer] had no authority to tell us where to stand or what to do.  I finally told [officer], since he was being absolutely unreasonable, to take our property and place it by a fire hydrant nearby and then leave in his car.  [officer] left two handguns and a knife at a nearby fire hydrant.  I picked up my property and [driver] picked up his pistol and we left the scene.
This entire incident was recorded on [officer]’s patrol car audio and video recording equipment.  Also [supervisor]’s audio and video were activated as well.  I strongly suggest that the video is viewed to see and hear  [officer]’s violation of the law.

[supervisor] stated that under Texas Law the police could hold a weapon from a citizen even after the contact was terminated in the name of officer safety.  I researched this under Government Code 411.207 which states:

“Authority of Peace Officer to Disarm: A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer’s official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual.  The peace officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.”

So it appears under the law, [officer]’s official law enforcement duties ended at the conclusion of the traffic stop, i.e. when the citation was signed and he gave a copy of the citation to [driver].  There is no legal obligation for us to vacate the scene, especially when we are told to remain there if we choose to speak to the supervisor of the officer, and we could not obtain the weapons back unless we chose not to speak to [officer]’s supervisor.  Further, neither [driver] or I demonstrated hostility towards the officer.  Both of us were legally armed and if we were going to demonstrate hostility, we would not have called APD Dispatch and requested an additional officer to respond, not would I have offered my name and phone number, giving the police an affirmative link and my own admission to being at the scene.

[officer]’s actions further reflect that he never felt threatened.  First, he removed handcuffs from both myself and [driver].  Second, he never completed a pat-down of [driver] or me.  Third, he never inspected the inside of the vehicle from the outside to visually search for weapons.  Fourth, he never called for a backup officer.  Fifth, he sat in the comfort of the patrol car to write a ticket (which is completely opposite of his training, to sit in the patrol car when writing a ticket).  [officer]’s actions clearly show that he never considered either of us a threat, yet when it came to returning our property he refused, citing officer safety.

I am filing a formal citizens’ complaint against Officer [officer] #[badge # of officer] with the Austin Police Department for violation of the Texas Government Code, Article 1.06 of the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure (pertaining to searches and seizures), and a violation of the 4th Amendment of the United States Constitution by failing to comply with the legalities of seizure of property without a warrant.

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Maybe a party involved asked for the thread to be removed. What thread. I didn't see no thread.

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Off topic, but are you by any chance related to Paul Ou?

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Off topic, but are you by any chance related to Paul Ou?

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I'm curious to know how this plays out, but I appreciate you standing up for your (and my) rights and holding them accountable for their actions and lack of knowledge in the very laws that they are sworn to protect.  

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nope.  an ARFCOM member?

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for clarification the citizens complaint is not directed towards the supervisor as he actually did not go and detain anyone inside Wal-Mart. i do not feel he should be disciplined for simply not knowing the law that he should at least have a working knowledge of, because even though he was incorrect, he did not actually go and violate anyone's rights. i do hope that he at least researched the law after to make sure he was right, like i did.



the citizen's complaint is only lodged against the officer who made the vehicle stop. not the supervisor who responded. i guess i did not make that clear. sorry!

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Two Austin officers were suspended for two days without pay this month in separate instances for failing to have their dash cameras turned on as required during traffic stops.

Officer Jerry Muhamet violated Police Department rules when he failed to turn on the camera in his car on July 31 when he backed up other officers in the public intoxication arrests of two suspects, according to a memorandum from Chief Art Acevedo.

Cpl. Randall Milstead violated department rules when he turned off the camera in his vehicle during a traffic stop on June 21, according to a separate memorandum from Acevedo.

During the course of the stop, the officer did not find a violation, according to the memo.

The department requires officers to record all traffic stops, pedestrian stops, sobriety tests and pursuits.

During a news conference about the suspensions Thursday afternoon, police officials said they did not have a count of how many officers have been reprimanded or suspended for dash camera violations in the past year.

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Thanks for the update spreadfire...  You are being totally too nice.  Those two honestly don't appear to deserve you being so gracious.  I hope they read this and realize what total morons they look like.

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Steve. why do you think the officer stopped you in the first place? Was it because you blocked him from turning left for 15 seconds and he had to wait for another green arrow?

Was he just trying to fill his ticket quota or did he perhaps see the two of you as "easy marks"?

Because you were each armed, do you think he suspected you of drug dealing, and does that explain why he wanted to see what was in the trunk so bad?

It scares the shit out of me that we have assclowns with guns and badges running around with the authority to fuck with people like this. I know that most cops are honest, good, hardworking civil servants with an impossible job, but shitstains like the one that stopped you do not help their cause.

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well, i wasn't the driver, but i believe the original stop was made because the driver blocked the APD cruiser.  anyone who lives in Ausitn knows the IH-35 / Ben White interchange is all messed up and this intersection is routinely blocked because of the mistiming of the stoplights.  in fact for my friend's defense i plan on going out there and videotaping at the same hour to show the problem is with TxDOT not with the driver.

he did not have to wait for another cycle of the light.  we did block him for probably about 15-20 seconds but he did get to go, and believe me he didn't wait to pull us over either.  remember he can violate traffic law to make a traffic stop anyway.

i do not think he had a traffic "quota" as he did not appear to be a traffic unit.  it wasn't a slick top or a motor cop or anything that would show he was a traffic enforcement unit.  i dont know how we could look like "easy marks" or anything.  the car was a 2005 Honda Accord in good condition (not beat up but hadn't been washed recently).  both of us aren't all scraggly.  i had a button down shirt and the driver had on a polo shirt i believe.  

i don't think he necessarily thought we were hauling a load of dope simply because we were armed.  i suspect he may be one of those guys who believe that the only people who need to be armed are the cops and does not think CHL holders (as a matter of personal opinion) need to carry.  alot of young cops have the "you're either a cop or a crook" mentality.  i think when the driver refused a search it wan't necessarily a matter of "you're hauling dope," more than it was a "oh, so you're not going to go with the program, so if you don't cooperate i am going to write you a ticket" mentality.  i think the trunk became an issue because he was told "no" instead of "yes."  note he made no major attempt to develop his own probable cause to get a search of the vehicle.  he did not take a look inside the vehicle's passenger compartment from the outside of the vehicle with any major scrutiny so either he simply dropped the matter after a few minutes, didn't know how to develop his own probable cause to get a search, or who knows what.

either way, my hope is that he simply doesn't go around throwing cuffs on law abiding gun owners for no reason, simply "because he can."  in law enforcement there is a saying:  "there are things that you can do, and things that you should do."  you can go around putting cuffs on everyone you legally detain.  the law allows you to as a police officer.  you should, probably, refrain from doing that every time.

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Just out of curiosity, are you a LEO?

Frank

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i heard from a reliable source that the Officer in question was venting publicly at a local store about his frustration with how the two guys (me and the driver) didn't understand his "officer safety" concern.  it was heard by a few people i know.  you would think that since he is the subject of an internal investigation to keep his mouth shut in public about it.

also i heard he didn't like being called a rookie.  my response is, if you don't like being called a rookie, don't act like one.  it shouldn't be offensive if it is true.

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i heard from a reliable source that the Officer in question was venting publicly at a local store about his frustration with how the two guys (me and the driver) didn't understand his "officer safety" concern. it was heard by a few people i know. you would think that since he is the subject of an internal investigation to keep his mouth shut in public about it.



also i heard he didn't like being called a rookie.
my response is, if you don't like being called a rookie, don't act like one. it shouldn't be offensive if it is true.

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You seem very proud of yourself, and it is obvious that you have a hard time keeping your mouth shut too.  We'll hear the "full" story soon hopefully, but until then, perhaps you can refrain from using this forum as your personal bashing agenda for this "campaign" against the Officer. If he was out of line, I trust it will be handled according to policy. If he was not, I trust you will shut your trap accordingly. Stick to the facts please, k, thanks. It is comments like the one you made above that make me raise an eyebrow over your side of the story.

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 We're all adults here, aren't we?  
 So please (with a lot of sugar on it) discuss intelligently or I'll edit every one of your post.  Then have your account locked.

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blah

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No one enjoys being mocked on a public forum, including the Officer you have filled against. Your witty little grins of mockery don't impress me, and I hope they don't impress the majority of Members of this outstanding forum. I have no beef with you, but please keep this forum professional without adding your comedic plights about this Officer. I enjoy reading this thread when it is professional, so hopefully you keep it that way as Mojo has requested.

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No one enjoys being mocked on a public forum, including the Officer you have filled against. Your witty little grins of mockery don't impress me, and I hope they don't impress the majority of Members of this outstanding forum. I have no beef with you, but please keep this forum professional without adding your comedic plights about this Officer. I enjoy reading this thread when it is professional, so hopefully you keep it that way as Mojo has requested.

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no, I'm not impressed with "wittly little grins of mockery" but I doubt anyones is trying to make impressions. I'm not impressed with your condescending attitude. I doubt many others are. If I said what I felt, the ban hammer would swiftly drop on me, so I'll just leave it at that