I have a lifetime carry permit, and I have been carrying for 2 years now, however one thing remains unclear. A friend told me that I have to "hide" my handgun to carry it legally. Can I open carry, or should the pistol be concealed at all times?

Indiana law doesn't specifically state either way, neither does the permit.  That said, as a police officer, I can say with certantity that you will have complaints called in from nervous citizens and you will be having conversations with the police on a regular basis if you carry in the open.  There are many other reasons to keep your heater under wraps.  One of the most important reasons is that you will be a target.  Imagine, you are standing in line at your favorite burger joint with your kids when the wolf shows up to rob said establishment and its patrons.  As the wolf comes through the door, he spots you standing there with your heater in the open.  He has just aquired his first target.  Those schooled in action vs reaction will tell you you will be dead before your hand reaches the holster.  I would much prefer to respond to a scene where an armed citizen drew his legally possessed concealed carry gun and took out the wolf than respond to one where the wolf took out the sheepdog because of a tactical error on the sheepdogs part.  

Just mu $.02    

Can an officer take any action against me if I he sees me carrying openly? Is it likely to have problems with police if I carry openly and what can they do? I see your point, but if we all carry openly I think the wolfs would realize how dangerous the state has become for them and will move to Chicago height=8

Quoted: Indiana law doesn't specifically state either way, neither does the permit.  That said, as a police officer, I can say with certantity that you will have complaints called in from nervous citizens and you will be having conversations with the police on a regular basis if you carry in the open.  There are many other reasons to keep your heater under wraps.  One of the most important reasons is that you will be a target.  Imagine, you are standing in line at your favorite burger joint with your kids when the wolf shows up to rob said establishment and its patrons.  As the wolf comes through the door, he spots you standing there with your heater in the open.  He has just aquired his first target.  Those schooled in action vs reaction will tell you you will be dead before your hand reaches the holster.  I would much prefer to respond to a scene where an armed citizen drew his legally possessed concealed carry gun and took out the wolf than respond to one where the wolf took out the sheepdog because of a tactical error on the sheepdogs part.   Just mu $.02

Quoted: Can an officer take any action against me if I he sees me carrying openly? Is it likely to have problems with police if I carry openly and what can they do?

Short answer: yes

Long answer: Depending on the officers training and state of mind, there are many situations you could be put into because of your open carry. This can range from an understanding nod acknowledging your presence to being thrown to the ground at gun point.


DaFuzz has a very good point.

In the event that you ever need it, the element of surprise can mean life or death for you. You can do many things to make more time, but once surprise is blown, that’s it, and you can’t get it back.

I’ve had to use my firearm twice… to be honest it didn’t matter how I was carrying because the first my entire body was concealed by working at a computer in an extra dark corner of my parents old store after hours.

An unknown made entry through the front door and was VERY surprised to be on the business end of my USP full size .45 (I was actually carrying open as I had just been to the range and had stopped by the shop to check on some things)

The second incident involved an armed man in a public park where I had absolutely no business getting involved but I did anyway. As luck would have it he was almost in a back corner made of two large brick walls and I set up with him between me and the back corner. I phoned police and grabbed the thigh holster and AR15 that I had with me for Coyote hunting later that evening. I ordered him to the ground and we had a nice little chat till police arrived.

Get this though, I’m on one knee behind a stone bench, an officer quietly announces that he is approaching and takes up position behind the same bench. Two more show up and take position behind adjacent benches. We all have our weapons on a man laying face down with a pistol and a sword next to him, I’m filling in the first officer on what happened and what I did when a fourth officer pulls up and draws down on me… not the half naked man yelling “F*** THE POLICE” that everyone is aimed at… nope draws down on me. Best (worst) part is that the officer behind me has now been turned into a back stop in this keystone cop shooting gallery and he was NOT happy about it.

The most important advice I can give you if you are ever involved in an armed confrontation is to describe yourself in detail to the dispatcher. The first officer on the scene knew that the man in the khaki pants, black shirt with short dark hair, with a thigh holster and an AR15 taking cover behind a concrete bench was FRIENDLY and that might have saved my life. It also might have prevented the bad guy from re-arming in the confusion.

There is NEVER a good time for open carry in public. I carry open to and from the range, while out hunting and while on private property late at night. I’ve been doing a lot of work lately in a building where the key security has been compromised. While ironing out the details of the new key scheme I’ve had to be in there late at night doing other jobs knowing that people with known malicious intentions have keys. I see no problem with open carry in that situation, but I see everything wrong with going down to your local burger joint looking like John Wayne.

What you gain in speed you lose ten fold in stealth and surprise. Instead of running the fight on your schedule, it’s now entirely in the hands of the aggressor. Like DaFuzz said, you won’t get a hand on your gun before you’re perforated by an attacker if they know you are armed.

Always carry, always carry concealed, always carry a spare mag and always check six.

When the Police are involved, it’s their show. You do what they tell you period.

Also, remember that there are a great many sheep out there that fear the professional sheep dogs for their capacity for violence. To those sheep, an armed citizen might as well be wearing a nametag identifying themselves as a mass murderer if they carry open.

I hope that isnt all incoherant ramble, its late =(

Im a LEO and agree with whats been said above and will add that if you open carry in a public area we have the right to stop you, run warrant checks, check your permit to make sure that its valid, run your gun, we will also be able to search you for any other weapons. We can do this because you and your gun will fall under the plain view doctrine because you or the gun have no expectation to privacy it also fits the criteriea for a Terry stop and Terry frisk because we can articulate that criminal activity may be accuring and we can check for weapons (and if we find anything else we can charge you with what we found). I would not advise open carry but if you dont mind being stopped and checked go ahead.

Also please remember to change your permit when you move, if the address is differant it makes your permit invalid and if you get an overzelious LEO he can take you in for Handgun no Permit even though you have a lifetime permit.

Quoted: What you gain in speed you lose ten fold in stealth and surprise.

this guy and dafuzz have the wisdom. i have seen 2 guys carry open and thought to myself that they just wanted attention and maybe trying to make up for what they didnt have in thier younger days. i dont think "cool they are making crooks think twice!"
i do think "man, what a jackass...that shit gives fuel to the fire for anti-gunners"

just know to yourself that under most circumstances you feel confident in your safety. when there is more than 2 thugs standing in my way making jackasses of themselves, i no longer have to deflect(acting like i dont see them) trying to avoid conflict, which really just feeds into thier ego thinking they can push you around. now i can look them in the eye with the confindence everybody should have. it's surprising on how they act when someobody walks by with complete confidence.

Good points made by all.  Onle last thing I will add to this.  In observing other officers on my department, as well as a those from other agencies, most of them take the attitude when dealing with someone carrying their firearm in the open that the person is a "wannabe cop" and as such, sometimes treat the person as if they are a joke.  I have cautioned some of them about their attitude towards some of these people because, sometimes, they have better training in markmanship and weapon retention than we do.

In 13 years at this job, I have never arrested someone for carryiing a firearm openly. (I have arrested many for pistol-no permit though) I have cautioned them about their tactical error and made suggestions for better concealment.  Some officers are VERY anti-gun and feel that only the police should have them.  Others, like me, feel comfort in knowing that there are citizens ready, willing, and able to step up in a SHTF situation.  But as related above, make sure you identify yourself and if you are ordered to "drop the gun" for goodness sakes, do as you are told.  You might get handcuffed and treated roughly, but when we get the situation sorted out, you will get your gun back and an appology. Much better than getting shot for not doing as you are told.

I guess the bottom line is, while it isn't illegal to carry openly, you are just asking for trouble.  Pick your battles wisely, but when picking your battle, its best to have the element of suprise.  Don't be one of the sheep, be the sheepdog in sheeps clothing.

I use to open carry all the time, everywhere I went. I only had a problem one time where someone called the police and reported a "man with a gun", but the officer that arrived was VERY polite, courteous, and very friendly. He even chatted up a little bit by saying that the 1911 I was carrying was nicer than the one he had at home.

You'll get different experiences from different places and people (especially LEO). Some don't mind it, but others will. Big time.

I've since started carrying concealed, but every now and then I'll still open carry.

Stoy,
All of the responses are very wise indeed.
I would like to add one point though.
Please, please, please, please...
Get formal training!!! I just took a beginner handgun course at Boone county. Sheriff Ken was more than hospitable and knowledgeable.
the point he made for concealed carry was this:
Although Indiana does not forbid open carry; one is a "damn fool" if one chooses to open carry. reason: IF you carry concealed you have a COICE. If you open carry the bad guy will choose to involve you weather you like it or not. With out announcing that you have a weapon you can gain cover and choose to stay out of the conflict OR create the surprise situation needed to take the BG off balance.
Made sense to me...
Mike

WOW! A lot of helpful responses that answered my question perfectly! I was asking because summer is here and its soooo much harder to conceal that CZ-75, but I guess I will have to try harder Thanks to everyone for the education!

I have found that using a high quality Holster and Thick Gun belt make CCW a alot easier, even in summer. I only open carry while hunting and once in public when there was a murder very close by and the murderer was on the loose. ( Night time and I wanted the weapon light on my HK just in case)

i will just change the gun to the environment, g27 for hot weather and go bigger whenever i can

Quoted: You might get handcuffed and treated roughly

With the furry handcuffs?  That is so hot!

Quoted: Indiana law doesn't specifically state either way, neither does the permit.  That said, as a police officer, I can say with certantity that you will have complaints called in from nervous citizens and you will be having conversations with the police on a regular basis if you carry in the open.  There are many other reasons to keep your heater under wraps.  One of the most important reasons is that you will be a target.  Imagine, you are standing in line at your favorite burger joint with your kids when the wolf shows up to rob said establishment and its patrons.  As the wolf comes through the door, he spots you standing there with your heater in the open.  He has just aquired his first target.  Those schooled in action vs reaction will tell you you will be dead before your hand reaches the holster.  I would much prefer to respond to a scene where an armed citizen drew his legally possessed concealed carry gun and took out the wolf than respond to one where the wolf took out the sheepdog because of a tactical error on the sheepdogs part.   Just mu $.02

+1


I have encountered a few people who were carrying in the open. I advised it would be smart to carry concealed...

If you want legal advice, it's probably a good idea to consult a competent attorney in the appropriate jurisdiction.  

The following is my non-lawyer opinion.  Take it for what it's worth.


With all due respect to the preceding messages, what police officers actually do and what they can do in real life is not always what the law dictates, nor is it always lawful or legal even if it is within their department's standards.  However, when you're approached (or accosted) by a law enforcement officer, you're essentially at their whim.  It's good to know and understand your rights, but it's not always a good idea to attempt to assert them when encountering some LEOs.

An example are the multiple reports of Terre Haute police officers accosting people who are lawfully carrying openly and threatening them with a non-existent ordinance prohibiting open carry in Terre Haute (if you can find such an ordinance, please let us know, as it appears nowhere in the Terre Haute municipal code and when pushed, representatives of the Terre Haute PD will admit they can't cite any actual ordinance).  The fact is, their department's group mind doesn't like it when mere citizens dare to carry openly and some of them do everything they can to discourage it.  

There are as many valid reasons for open carry as there are people who do it.  It's hackneyed and tiresome to read the "he just wants attention," "he thinks he's a big man," "he wants to be a cop," drivel.  It may be true in some specific cases, but it's absurd and non-productive to project your own prejudices onto others whose otherwise lawful actions do not match your preferences.

There are appropriate times and places to carry openly.  By the same token, there are places and times where it's an unwise decision.  Blanket generalizations are worth about as much as you paid for them.

I carry openly whenever I feel it is prudent to do so, and I conceal otherwise.  It's my choice and I fully understand the legals issues and the social ramifications of my behavior.  I've never had a real problem.

If you do choose to carry openly, you can take steps to ensure you won't have unnecessary problems.  If you dress and conduct yourself in an appropriate and dignified manner and carry in a proper holster, you are far less likely to have problems than if you're shirtless, have an unkempt appearance, and have your gun(s) prominently thrust into the front of your trousers.  How you conduct yourself makes a huge difference in how people perceive you whether you are carrying a firearm or not.

I fully understand the potential defensive advantages of carrying concealed.  However, there are a variety of reasons to carry openly at times when it is prudent.  Perhaps most important among these is because too much of "the public" has been conditioned to believe the lie that anyone who is carrying a gun is either a criminal, a cop, or someone seeking some kind of attention.  Our society (perhaps less so in most of Indiana) has gone too far in that direction and people need to be reeducated to the fact that when you see someone carrying a gun in a holster, that's all that it means:  the person is carrying a gun.  How you should interact with them should revolve around their actions, not their choice to be armed and not conceal it.  If more people would carry openly in a responsible manner in their daily lives, we'd all be better for it.

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Quoted: If more people would carry openly in a responsible manner in their daily lives, we'd all be better for it.

Last month I am in a gas station in line to buy some cokes here in Bloomington.  I am carrying IWB and feeling a bit uncomforable since I am breaking in a new holster and gun (S&W Airweight).  Since the gun and holster are uncomfortable, I am uncomfortable, and since I am uncomfortable I am sure that everyone is noticing, etc.  You know the feeling.

Anyways, at the front of the line is a senior citizen with a OWB holster with a Bersa in it.  He pays for his gas and heads on out to his pickup.  I thought, "You go! Rock on!" and waited for someone in the line to say something after he left.  There were easily 8 people there and his weapon was well in sight, surely someone would say something.

Guess what?  Nada, nothing.  Not a joke, word, comment.  No one cared.

Now, I two things were at work here:  1. People are blind.  2. People don't care, especially if it is grandpa packing heat.  Old guys are not that threatening.

I chucked it up to living in Indiana and moved on with my day.

As for my opinion, I always carry concealed but know that there are times that switching over to open carry might make sense.  Take for instance a guy who is playing with his kids outside and sees a car that is hanging out at the end of his rural driveway.  Guy in the car seems to be paying too much attention to guy's kids.  Father decides to take off his over shirt and let his carry go from concealed to open while he continues to play in the yard.  Guy in car sees the open carry and drives off in a sudden hurry.  

But, frankly, I want the concealment and the surprise.  I also do not want to set off the town sheep (and do we have sheep in Bloomington!).  Miles out into the counties I would be less concerned, but not in town.

It takes guts to open carry.

I got another ?, is the new life time still treated by other states the same way. Since we are like the only ones doing it, do the other states differ in reciprocity. Just curious. Thanks

Quoted:It takes guts to open carry.

it takes something, not sure what it is though

I have seen open carry a few times around Tipton but not very often. I don't do it myself as I don't need to see people freak or feel the need to disclose that I am armed. However, I feel "open carry" should be legal in Indiana without a permit as I understand it is in several states.

ETA:Spelling

Quoted: Guess what?  Nada, nothing.  Not a joke, word, comment.  No one cared.

That's the way it should be, and the more people do it, the more likely the response will continue to be a non-response.

It's interesting that it happened in Bloomington, given the significantly liberal, socialist-statist demographic bias of the town (as you noted).  Maybe there is some hope!

Can anyone cite where a person open carrying has EVER had their gun 'snatched'?  Can anyone cite when someone open carrying was specifically targeted prior to the commision of a crime?

Some of you people sound like your reading cue cards from the brady bunch.

I rarely open carry but everytime I have it's been positive, from the gas station to major grocery stores and walmarts.

I personally prefer not to draw attention to myself, howver coming back from the range on a hot day and stopping off to pick up a gallon of milk on teh way home or something... why not?

As to the LEOs who feel the need to 'go postal' on someone open carrying I'd remind you that by law the simple open carry of a firearm doesn't allow you anymore pervue to search than anyone else.  I cannot recall the case off the top of my head, but a IMPD officer was taken to task over this last year.  Beyond compeling the presentation of a LTCH card you cannot compel a person to surrender their firearm without cause and open carry was ruled to NOT be one of them.

Many states allow open carry and some without even needing a permit.  Why this should be some sort of issue (for anyone on either side) makes no sense.  Mall ninjas need to grow up and the nose in the air crowd need to get off their high horses, both are equally as ignorant.

As I have heard read some stories about open carry. I do remove my overshirt at home and when I am working around my yard. During some of these times I have talked with some of my neighbors (thinking all the while that I would hear some kind of negative comment) they all have small children.
However no such comment ever came up.

I love Indiana!!!!

Rhino... you mentioned Terre Haute. I know that you get around the state pretty good, are you in TH very much. I own a business there. (just curious)
I also have a few friends on the local and State police departments and all of them know that I carry and none seem to have had any words of warning or caveats to tell me about.

Quoted: I carry openly whenever I feel it is prudent to do so, and I conceal otherwise.  It's my choice and I fully understand the legals issues and the social ramifications of my behavior.  I've never had a real problem. ...  If more people would carry openly in a responsible manner in their daily lives, we'd all be better for it.

Very well thought out post, rhino_.  If I am in business attire--and am not in a location or situation where my safety or the safety of those around me would be jeopardized--I open carry.  I think we all ought to from time to time.  Most people never notice.  From those who do, I only receive positive comments.  My dentist has given me a cart blanche to shoot any of his employees if the service is not up to my expectations.  The ladies that work there are also very nice and never seem bothered by it.

That said, 80-90% of the time, I don't open carry as I realize that I give up the tactical advantage.  I only open carry to get people used to it and as rhino_ said, it would benefit us if everyone open-carried more often.  I'm actually a bit bothered that some of our LEOs are annoyed by it.  If they should be annoyed by someone, it should be the sawed-off sissies that call to whine.

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Quoted: Can anyone cite where a person open carrying has EVER had their gun 'snatched'?  Can anyone cite when someone open carrying was specifically targeted prior to the commision of a crime?

I can only think of the employees of Don's Guns a few years back who were ambushed in the parking lot before opening the store (if I remember right).


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Some of you people sound like your reading cue cards from the brady bunch.

Ouch!  I agree but don't agree.  We should not let the sheep determine our rights, but at the same time we ought be cautious.  Those who are cautious are recognizing that part of the job of the sheepdog is not to panic the sheep.

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I rarely open carry but everytime I have it's been positive, from the gas station to major grocery stores and walmarts.

Keep it up!  I will join you once my kids are old enough that I am not risking their chances for playdates by being "that guy with the gun".  Should be another few years.

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I personally prefer not to draw attention to myself,

Me too.

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howver coming back from the range on a hot day and stopping off to pick up a gallon of milk on teh way home or something... why not? As to the LEOs who feel the need to 'go postal' on someone open carrying I'd remind you that by law the simple open carry of a firearm doesn't allow you anymore pervue to search than anyone else.  I cannot recall the case off the top of my head, but a IMPD officer was taken to task over this last year.  Beyond compeling the presentation of a LTCH card you cannot compel a person to surrender their firearm without cause and open carry was ruled to NOT be one of them.

While this is true, the reality is that causing panics among the sheep can cost a sheepdog.  It does not matter if the sheep are the problem.

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Many states allow open carry and some without even needing a permit.  Why this should be some sort of issue (for anyone on either side) makes no sense.  Mall ninjas need to grow up and the nose in the air crowd need to get off their high horses, both are equally as ignorant.

Even states where it is allowed, like Virginia, it is a rule that people need to be careful when and how they carry.  Carrying in a suit, no problem.  Carrying in your just pained the house and mowed the lawn clothes, may be a problem.

I fully support those who open carry.  I hope more and more do it as a way to acclimate the sheep a bit to the presence of sheepdogs.  But at the same time, the goal is to acclimate and not panic.  And sadly, many of the sheep are inches away from panic at all times.

Good luck and God bless.

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Quoted: height=8 Quoted: Can anyone cite where a person open carrying has EVER had their gun 'snatched'?  Can anyone cite when someone open carrying was specifically targeted prior to the commision of a crime? I can only think of the employees of Don's Guns a few years back who were ambushed in the parking lot before opening the store (if I remember right).

Same here and that was a planned hit.  I was speaking more to the random crime... I don't think had they been concealed or not would things have went any different.  No way to totally guard against that sort of thing.

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Even states where it is allowed, like Virginia, it is a rule that people need to be careful when and how they carry.  Carrying in a suit, no problem.  Carrying in your just pained the house and mowed the lawn clothes, may be a problem. I fully support those who open carry.  I hope more and more do it as a way to acclimate the sheep a bit to the presence of sheepdogs.  But at the same time, the goal is to acclimate and not panic.  And sadly, many of the sheep are inches away from panic at all times. Good luck and God bless.

So far I've always been been dressed nicely.  I also have a short hair cut I never got rid of from my Fire Rescue days.  Once on teh way back from teh range I did about 200 dollars worth of grocery shopping (sale change) while open carrying and compeltely forgot I was wearing a "vote from the rooftops" Tshirt at the time, lol.  Not a single comment and I also passed a guy wearing a S.O. windbreaker we nodded at each other as our carts passed.

Most of you are making valid points.  As stated, open carry is not prohibited in this state.  No where on the permit does it specifically state "concealed carry". (Unless the new lifetime permits state that).  I support the citizens rights to carry a firearm and I applaud those that take their right to carry and protect themselves seriously.  As an LEO that works in the region (NW Indiana) I see people that carry all the time.  Alot of them are not licensed to do so.  Some that are, carry in a reckless manner, ie; jammed in the waistband of their shorts, stuck in their back pockets, etc.  You have to understand that we deal mainly with the scourge of the earth, and we trust very few people.  Just because you are dressed in a nice business suit, or a shirt and tie with your gun displayed prominently on your hip doesn't mean you have less of a chance of being stopped by a Police Officer and questioned about it.  We go to court with the drug dealers, the sexual predators, the burglars, etc.  Guess who shows up clean cut in a nice business suit or shirt and tie with a fresh shave and haircut?  You guessed, the bad guys.  
I teach my rookies that the most important job we have is to go home safe at the end of the shift.  So, officer safety is always number one.  Can we legally stop someone we see carrying a firearm in the open and ask to see their permit?  Yes we can.  Can you expect to be handcuffed while we deal with you and your weapon?  Yes you can, but it won't always happen.  Will we take the firearm from you while we checking the license and checking you for warrants?  You bet we can legally and we will.  If everything checks out, will we give you your gun back?  Yes we will and we have to.  Depending on the Officer, you might even get an apology for the embarrassment.  Are we violating your rights?  Absolutely not.  The best way to avoid something like that it to keep it concealed.  
I cannot point to any one specific incident where someone has been targeted in a theft or robbery who was carrying openly, but that is a common sense issue.  I have posed these questions to the wolf before and been told that, in that scenario, that person would be a target.  Why take the chance??  I carry ALL the time, so much that my wife complains that I spend more time with my gun than I do her.  The only time I carry openly (besides uniform carry) is when I am working a crime scene or other special detail.  Why put myself and family at risk unnecessarily?  I understand that we all come from different parts of the state and that some areas are different from others.  I also understand that Officers attitudes vary across the state from the good old boy  to the hard core paramilitary style.  
As posted above, none of this is meant as any kind of legal advice.  You are free to consult your attorney as needed.  Some here may even be attorneys.  I will close with this.  Most attorneys don't deal with the law outside the safety of a courtroom or their office and don't understand the split second decision that is required by an LEO or legally armed citizen placed in the same position.  For that matter, most citizens don't either.  To repeat another earlier point from above, buy ammo, and get yourself good training.  The life you save someday might be mine!

Quoted: Rhino... you mentioned Terre Haute. I know that you get around the state pretty good, are you in TH very much. I own a business there. (just curious) I also have a few friends on the local and State police departments and all of them know that I carry and none seem to have had any words of warning or caveats to tell me about.

Howdy!

I'm in Terre Haute (or at least the vicinity such as Riley Conservation Club) at least once a month, but lately it's been more.  I have a USPSA match each month at RileyCC, plus a RileyCC club meeting (lately), and I have family in the area.  I graduated from Rose-Hulman in 1987, so it's sort of my second home town.

Quoted: Very well thought out post, rhino_.

Thanks, abnk.  You are clearly an erudite and perceptive individual!  

Quoted: I'm actually a bit bothered that some of our LEOs are annoyed by it.  If they should be annoyed by someone, it should be the sawed-off sissies that call to whine.

AMEN!

Quoted: Get formal training!!! I just took a beginner handgun course at Boone county. Sheriff Ken was more than hospitable and knowledgeable. the point he made for concealed carry was this: Although Indiana does not forbid open carry; one is a "damn fool" if one chooses to open carry. reason: IF you carry concealed you have a COICE. If you open carry the bad guy will choose to involve you weather you like it or not. With out announcing that you have a weapon you can gain cover and choose to stay out of the conflict OR create the surprise situation needed to take the BG off balance.

Well, let's see.  I've hear Sheriff Ken's lecture at least 14 times since 2002.  He does suggest concealment each time.  I understand why he advocates it.  However, I have never heard him use the phrase ". . . one is a 'damn fool' if one chooses to open carry."  I will ask him the next time I see him about it.

Quoted: . . . Can you expect to be handcuffed while we deal with you and your weapon?  Yes you can, but it won't always happen.  Will we take the firearm from you while we checking the license and checking you for warrants?  You bet we can legally and we will.

It's interesting that you assert that this is legal.

We're talking about nothing other than you seeing someone on the street carrying a firearm, who produces a valid License to Carry Handgun at your request, right?

We're not talking about a traffic stop or some other situation where some kind of crime is potentially involved right?

Again, what happens happens, but even though it's within a department's policy, it's not always legal.  That you can get away with it and believe it is legal (and your attorneys may believe so too) is obvious.  

Is it really legal?  Prometheus example is an illustration that it's not.

Carrying a gun lawfully is not cause for any "reasonable suspicion."  Would you feel comfortable handcuffing a random person walking down the street with no suspicion of any crime?  Then relieving him of his property while you ascertained whether or not it was stolen?  Why do the same to someone who is just carrying a gun?  It't not a crime and it's not a legitimate reason for to suspect one has been committed.  Whether or not you realize it, you're behaving as if carrying a gun is a crime or evidence thereof, and it simply is not.  Perhaps if you saw more "regular people" carrying openly you might come to understand that.

I sympathize with the difficulty of your job and the element you encounter, but that doesn't make it right or legal, regardless of whether or not you can get away with it without repercussions indefinitely.

And rights are definitely being violated, whether you feel that way or not.

As far as people going home safely is concerned, my safety is more important to me than someone else's, whether they are a police officer or not.  The safest place for a holster or cased weapon to remain is holstered or cased.  Handling it so an LEO can feel better is creating a situation where a negligent discharge is far more likely to happen, especially when the officer involved lacks an understanding of how to safely handle a given weapon.  

If you feel the need to check for a valid License to Carry, go ahead, but don't treat a non-criminal like a criminal when you're doing it.  And when you see the license and it's valid, your interaction should be over.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Quoted: Quoted: . . . Can you expect to be handcuffed while we deal with you and your weapon?  Yes you can, but it won't always happen.  Will we take the firearm from you while we checking the license and checking you for warrants?  You bet we can legally and we will. It's interesting that you assert that this is legal. We're talking about nothing other than you seeing someone on the street carrying a firearm, who produces a valid License to Carry Handgun at your request, right? We're not talking about a traffic stop or some other situation where some kind of crime is potentially involved right? Again, what happens happens, but even though it's within a department's policy, it's not always legal.  That you can get away with it and believe it is legal (and your attorneys may believe so too) is obvious.   Is it really legal?  Prometheus example is an illustration that it's not. Carrying a gun lawfully is not cause for any "reasonable suspicion."  Would you feel comfortable handcuffing a random person walking down the street with no suspicion of any crime?  Then relieving him of his property while you ascertained whether or not it was stolen?  Why do the same to someone who is just carrying a gun?  It't not a crime and it's not a legitimate reason for to suspect one has been committed.  Whether or not you realize it, you're behaving as if carrying a gun is a crime or evidence thereof, and it simply is not.  Perhaps if you saw more "regular people" carrying openly you might come to understand that. I sympathize with the difficulty of your job and the element you encounter, but that doesn't make it right or legal, regardless of whether or not you can get away with it without repercussions indefinitely. And rights are definitely being violated, whether you feel that way or not. As far as people going home safely is concerned, my safety is more important to me than someone else's, whether they are a police officer or not.  The safest place for a holster or cased weapon to remain is holstered or cased.  Handling it so an LEO can feel better is creating a situation where a negligent discharge is far more likely to happen, especially when the officer involved lacks an understanding of how to safely handle a given weapon.   If you feel the need to check for a valid License to Carry, go ahead, but don't treat a non-criminal like a criminal when you're doing it.  And when you see the license and it's valid, your interaction should be over. Of course, that's just my opinion.

And a well thought out opinion it is. I agree with all your points.

Quoted: And a well thought out opinion it is. I agree with all your points.

You, sir, much like abnk, are an erudite and perceptive individual.  

Quoted: Quoted: Get formal training!!! I just took a beginner handgun course at Boone county. Sheriff Ken was more than hospitable and knowledgeable. the point he made for concealed carry was this: Although Indiana does not forbid open carry; one is a "damn fool" if one chooses to open carry. reason: IF you carry concealed you have a COICE. If you open carry the bad guy will choose to involve you weather you like it or not. With out announcing that you have a weapon you can gain cover and choose to stay out of the conflict OR create the surprise situation needed to take the BG off balance. Well, let's see.  I've hear Sheriff Ken's lecture at least 14 times since 2002.  He does suggest concealment each time.  I understand why he advocates it.  However, I have never heard him use the phrase ". . . one is a 'damn fool' if one chooses to open carry."  I will ask him the next time I see him about it.

Actually, I took his class recently and he said that one would be "an idiot" for open-carrying.  I didn't vocalize my opposition to that assertion simply because the ambit of the subject was surviving in a firefight from the defensive angle.

Sheriff Campbell is a great instructor, by the way.  If any of you are considering taking classes from him, don't procrastinate.

rhino_, you KNOW I agree with you about the legalities of open carry, but I will always prefer concealed carry. I just feel that it is "tactically" a more sound choice.

But then again, you know I am sort of a pessimist.

This is exactly what I am talking about.  The bottom line is, people don't like the fact that an LEO can restrict their freedoms.  There is a fine line we have to walk as to not violate your 4th Amendment rights.  It is not like a traffic stop where a crime has been comitted, but like a traffic stop, I don't need probable cause, just reasonable suspicion that a crime has been comitted.  A Terry Stop (stop and frisk) is a brief encounter allowed under law when an officer believes a crime may be afoot.  That is what would happen if I encountered you on the street carrying a gun in the open.  It may offend or "violate" your sensibilities, but it isn't a violation of your rights.  

LEO's are always accused of violating this person or that persons rights all the time.  We allow the courts to exonerate us when that claim is made.  I am clear that just because it is policy, doesn't mean it is legal.  Most, not all, but most agencies have all their SOP's and Regulations reviewed by their prosecutors and attorney's before enacting them.

Carrying a gun lawfully may not be suspicion of a crime, but its YOUR responsibility to prove or provide the proper documentation that it is legal when asked.  What you are saying is paramount to saying that the police can't do anything about people unlawfully carrying guns because we are violating their rights by asking for a permit.  Please!

How about this example: Smith walks past me on the street carrying a gun openly and I don't stop him, id him and make sure he has a permit because I am violating his rights.  Smith walks into a gas station where you happen to be a customer and announces a hold up.  In the fracass that follows, you get shot by Smith.  Now, your wife is sitting in the car and saw Smith walk past me and saw that I made no attempt to talk to him.  I get sued, and my department gets sued because I saw this bad guy with an illegal gun and didn't do anything about it.  

Whether you like it or not, the courts give us a lot of latitude with this as it pertains to public and Officer safety.  Most don't like it...frankly, I don't blame you for not liking it.  You are right in the last part though, once you provide the proper permit, the encounter is over.  

I am not trying to garner sympathy for the difficulties of my job.  I know my job is tough, it is also very rewarding, and as far as I am concerned, its the best job in the world.  People that don't understand what we do or the difficulties of the job are the ones that scream that we are violating their rights and Monday morning Quarterback everything we do.  In my opinon, unless you have attended law school and practiced law or have attended the Police Academy and had training in the practical application of the law, you have a very narrow interpretation of the law.  Everyone who has ever complained about judges letting people off on technicalities should understand that there is usually a BROAD interpretation of the law.

My answer to the posters original question was to provide the guidance he requested.  If I have offended you or anyone else, I apologize.  That was not my intention.  My personal position has always been to encourage citizens to carry, concealed or open.  I just offered several reasons why open carry is not a good idea.  I am a firm believer that an "armed society is a polite society."  

Flame away

Quoted: Actually, I took his class recently and he said that one would be "an idiot" for open-carrying.  I didn't vocalize my opposition to that assertion simply because the ambit of the subject was surviving in a firefight from the defensive angle. Sheriff Campbell is a great instructor, by the way.  If any of you are considering taking classes from him, don't procrastinate.

Agreed that Sheriff Ken is awesome!

Thanks for the confirmation on the idiot/fool thing.  Those are strong words, and if defense is the sole factor, then he's got a good point.  The thing is, we who are not police officers are dealing with other issues as well, particularly the socio-political factors.  People with badges will be the last civilians to lose their privilege (but it will happen to them eventually if it happens to us) to have guns, so it's understandable they don't always see things the same way the rest of us do.

Quoted: rhino_, you KNOW I agree with you about the legalities of open carry, but I will always prefer concealed carry. I just feel that it is "tactically" a more sound choice. But then again, you know I am sort of a pessimist.

Well, yeah.  As you know, I am concealed most of the time too, but I open carry when I think it's a good idea and/or when I have a good reason to do so.

But there is no damn way I'm going to question or berate someone else from carrying openly, especially if they understand the ramifications of doing so.

Quoted: Quoted: rhino_, you KNOW I agree with you about the legalities of open carry, but I will always prefer concealed carry. I just feel that it is "tactically" a more sound choice. But then again, you know I am sort of a pessimist. Well, yeah.  As you know, I am concealed most of the time too, but I open carry when I think it's a good idea and/or when I have a good reason to do so. But there is no damn way I'm going to question or berate someone else from carrying openly, especially if they understand the ramifications of doing so.

Well said!

Quoted: This is exactly what I am talking about.  The bottom line is, people don't like the fact that an LEO can restrict their freedoms.  There is a fine line we have to walk as to not violate your 4th Amendment rights.  It is not like a traffic stop where a crime has been comitted, but like a traffic stop, I don't need probable cause, just reasonable suspicion that a crime has been comitted.  A Terry Stop (stop and frisk) is a brief encounter allowed under law when an officer believes a crime may be afoot.  That is what would happen if I encountered you on the street carrying a gun in the open.  It may offend or "violate" your sensibilities, but it isn't a violation of your rights.

See, that's the problem.  You believe that carrying a gun is evidence of a crime, or at least "reasonable suspicion."  It's not.  You've been trained to believe it, but that does not make it so.  It may even fly in the courts in your jurisdiction.  It won't down here anymore.

Quoted: Carrying a gun lawfully may not be suspicion of a crime, but its YOUR responsibility to prove or provide the proper documentation that it is legal when asked.  What you are saying is paramount to saying that the police can't do anything about people unlawfully carrying guns because we are violating their rights by asking for a permit.  Please!

Of course we required to prove we have a valid license to carry when asked, as that is in the Indiana Code.  Where you lose yourself in this is THAT IS WHERE IT ENDS.

Your position is one of guilty until proven innocent when your sole justification for "reasonable suspicion" is that someone is carrying a gun.  What crime do you "reasonably suspect"?  Really ... what actual crime do you reasonably suspect?  Name it.  

If you can't see how wrong that is, nothing I can say will have any positive effect.  I just hope that in the years to come you reflect on your opinion and practices.  You may reach a different conclusion when you are not as jaded by daily interaction with actual criminals.

Yes, you're getting away with it, probably with full approval of your department and the courts in your jurisdiction.  Again, that doesn't make it right or legal.  

Quoted: But there is no damn way I'm going to question or berate someone else from carrying openly, especially if they understand the ramifications of doing so.

You are a magnificent bastard, you are.

And I agree.

Quoted: You are a magnificent bastard, you are. And I agree.

And we know I am a magnificent bastard BECAUSE MY MOM SAID SO!

Quoted: And we know I am a magnificent bastard BECAUSE MY MOM SAID SO!

That was the funniest story you have ever told.

Well, then again, the Plainfield SPECOP story was rich too!


Sorry for the hijack of a very important topic folks, I thought a little levity would cool things down a bit.

Now back to the original program.....

See, that's the problem.  You believe that carrying a gun is evidence of a crime, or at least "reasonable suspicion."  It's not.  You've been trained to believe it, but that does not make it so.  It may even fly in the courts in your jurisdiction.  It won't down here anymore.

You are confusing evidence of a crime with reasonable suspicion.  If a crime is in fact comitted (Pistol no permit) then the gun is the evidence of the crime.  Here is another example that might make my point.  Officer is following a car down the road and runs the registration plate.  The driving record of the registered owner shows that his drivers license is suspended.  Officer makes traffic stop based on Reasonable Suspicion that the driver is violating the law by driving witha suspended license.  Driver provides a valid drivers license and is released.  Legal stop.  Officer sees a guy with a gun and decides to talk to him and check his permit.  Permit produced, gun returned, stop over.  

Of course we required to prove we have a valid license to carry when asked, as that is in the Indiana Code.  Where you lose yourself in this is THAT IS WHERE IT ENDS.

I'm not lost in this, thats the end of the encounter.  I think you are reading more into what I said.

Your position is one of guilty until proven innocent when your sole justification for "reasonable suspicion" is that someone is carrying a gun.  What crime do you "reasonably suspect"?  Really ... what actual crime do you reasonably suspect?  Name it.

Carrying a pistol without a permit Class A-misdemeanor to a Class C-felony depending on the location of the stop.

If you can't see how wrong that is, nothing I can say will have any positive effect.  I just hope that in the years to come you reflect on your opinion and practices.  You may reach a different conclusion when you are not as jaded by daily interaction with actual criminals.

Not jaded, just realistic.  You are ignoring the fact that I AM A SUPPORTER OF THE INDIVIDUALS RIGHTS TO CARRY!!!  I can't make it any plainer than that.  

Yes, you're getting away with it, probably with full approval of your department and the courts in your jurisdiction.  Again, that doesn't make it right or legal.

 

I'm confused, if the courts and case law support us, how is it illegal?  It can't be illegal just because a person says or wants it to be.  

Like I said, if I offended you, I am sorry.  My statements are based in fact of law, not some theory I fabricated.

Quoted: Your position is one of guilty until proven innocent when your sole justification for "reasonable suspicion" is that someone is carrying a gun.  What crime do you "reasonably suspect"?  Really ... what actual crime do you reasonably suspect?  Name it. Carrying a pistol without a permit Class A-misdemeanor to a Class C-felony depending on the location of the stop.

DaFuzz62,


First off, thank you for being a staunch supporter of the RKBA (I think most Indiana LEOs are).  I understand that you are only stating what can happen and not necessarily what you would do.

Now, as for the quotation above, I would think that more people drive without a license than carry a handgun without a license.  Who would be more likely to be stopped: a person open-carrying or person open-driving ()?

I have had two encounters with LEOs involving firearms and I have mentioned them here before.  The first one when concealed, the LEO freaked out, took and unloaded my pistol and kept asking why I was hiding it.

The second--which was more serious as I fit the description of a criminal mere minutes from the time of the robbery, early morning, dark alley--when open-carrying, the officer didn't even unholster my pistol, just asked to see the license and had me wait for the victim to look at me.  He was extremely polite and even apologized for stopping me after I was cleared.  The officer from the first case just left pissed off without saying a word.  By the way, that was on my property and I was the victim.

There are certainly more people arrested for DWS than Pistol, no permit.  As for the way officers react, well, I for one would react the way the second officer you mentioned did.  A calm, cool head prevails in most situations.  I have seen others react the way the first officer you mentioned did.  Needless to say, I was embarassed and appalled.   Not everyone will be in agreement on these forums.  Thats what makes them interesting.  

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Quoted: What you are saying is paramount to saying that the police can't do anything about people unlawfully carrying guns because we are violating their rights by asking for a permit.  Please!

Negative and the case I referenced was not about an officer asking for a permit, but rather disarming and harrasment after teh permit was produced.

Asking for a license vs. disarming someone are two very different things.  The first is allowed by state law, the second is not (assuming the only reason for contact was the mere presence of a handgun).  I'm not arguing saying many officers make up the law as the go and do basically as they darn well please.  I simply stating the law and court rulings.

Both concealed and open carry have their advantages, however we should not be treated as a criminals if we choose to open carry which is our right!
Now that the discussion has grown so much I have decided that it is better for us to open carry more often in order to re-educate the law enforcement and the citizens of Indiana, they both must understand that a person who carries openly is not a criminal!

I will open carry whenever I feel the need to, and if I get stopped by a police officer and asked to present my permit, that is fine, but if I get handcuffed and they take my gun and put me in the police car for half an hour until they sort the thing out I will call my lawyer and sue the police department, the city, the officer himself, the mayor and everybody else I can add as a defendant!!!

This is completely unacceptable and if that happens to me, I will be very angry and I will make sure things change in my town!!!

Again, if I get treated like a criminal for no reason, I will make sure the officer who does it will greatly suffer from his actions and I will do everything possible for that officer to be fired and the city and the police department to pay significant damages to me!!!

I have built a very successful business and I have the funds to push something like that to the limits and I will do it, for me and for everybody else wants to keep Indiana gun friendly state!!!

I love it when another one of us is born!  

This has been a very good conversation, and I thank Dafuzz62 for his candor and his genuine support for our right to carry.

Prometheus - I see what you are saying and I agree.  Once a valid permit has been provided, thats it, case closed, stop over.  What I am saying is that an LEO can (and some will, but not all) will take your gun from you for officer safety PRIOR to you providing the permit.  

Stoyan79 - If you get stopped, handcuffed, stuffed in a police car for half an hour while they sort it out, I don't blame you.  I would sue the bastards too.  Thats just uncalled for.  When I stop and id someone carrying openly, I don't always take their gun...most people are smart enough not to make any threatening gestures or furtive movements in that situation.  If I stop someone walking down the street at midnight though, I will probable take their gun while they provide the permit and id.  If there was a robbery or break-in in the area right before I encountered them, then they will be handcuffed briefly while it get sorted out.  Is that illegal? Nope.  Will it piss you off?  Hope so, cause it would piss me off.  But the courts look at the totality of the circumstances and have agreed many times that those actions are reasonable.  

This thread seemed to get out of control.  I encourage you to talk to your local police and see what their views are on the subject.  You will find there are varying opinions, but most veteran cops will tell you pretty much what I just did.  Are there gung-ho, badge heavy young cops who make the rules up as they go and God save you if you argue with them?  Unfortunately, there are.  As a whole though, they are the minority.  

We all have a job to do and it is comforting to know that there are so many good, decent, upstanding citizens that are legally armed and willing to defend themselves and each other.

Have a safe week!

Group hug time!

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Quoted: Prometheus - I see what you are saying and I agree.  Once a valid permit has been provided, thats it, case closed, stop over.  What I am saying is that an LEO can (and some will, but not all) will take your gun from you for officer safety PRIOR to you providing the permit.   Stoyan79 - If you get stopped, handcuffed, stuffed in a police car for half an hour while they sort it out, I don't blame you.  I would sue the bastards too.  Thats just uncalled for.  When I stop and id someone carrying openly, I don't always take their gun...most people are smart enough not to make any threatening gestures or furtive movements in that situation.  If I stop someone walking down the street at midnight though, I will probable take their gun while they provide the permit and id.  If there was a robbery or break-in in the area right before I encountered them, then they will be handcuffed briefly while it get sorted out.  Is that illegal? Nope.  Will it piss you off?  Hope so, cause it would piss me off.  But the courts look at the totality of the circumstances and have agreed many times that those actions are reasonable.   This thread seemed to get out of control.  I encourage you to talk to your local police and see what their views are on the subject.  You will find there are varying opinions, but most veteran cops will tell you pretty much what I just did.  Are there gung-ho, badge heavy young cops who make the rules up as they go and God save you if you argue with them?  Unfortunately, there are.  As a whole though, they are the minority.   We all have a job to do and it is comforting to know that there are so many good, decent, upstanding citizens that are legally armed and willing to defend themselves and each other. Have a safe week!

Sir, I wish all cops were like you, it is clear to me that you are very competent and understanding. I only hope, if a situation arises to work with somebody like you, representing the law enforcement.