I'm very thankful that Indiana allows NFA items, but it irks me to no end that we cannot be trusted to own an SBS. Why is it that a pistol-gripped shotgun with a short barrel IS legal (AOW), but is illegal if a buttstock is added? What is the state's reasoning for this? I've pondered this for a few years now, and still haven't figured it out. What process do we have to endure to get this silly law changed? Who do we need to contact?

Another thing that bugs me is not being allowed to use a sound suppressor while varmint and smallgame hunting (while some other states allow it), but we'll save that for another day.

Quoted: Why is it that a pistol-gripped shotgun with a short barrel IS legal (AOW), but is illegal if a buttstock is added? What is the state's reasoning for this?

It has to do with the wording of the Indiana Code.

IC 35-47-1-11
"Shotgun"
    Sec. 11. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

AOWs, having no buttstock, are not "intended to be fired from the shoulder" and are thus not "shotguns" under Indiana law. This is the same reason why the "cruiser" type shotguns (18" barrel, pistol grip only) have to be sold as pistols in Indiana

IC 35-47-1-10
"Sawed-off shotgun"
    Sec. 10. "Sawed-off shotgun" means:
       (1) a shotgun having one (1) or more barrels less than eighteen (18) inches in length; and
       (2) any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if the weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six (26) inches.

an SBS would fall under definition (1) and possibly (2), depending on the configuration

IC 35-47-5-4.1
Sawed-off shotgun
    Sec. 4.1. (a) A person who:
       (1) manufactures;
       (2) causes to be manufactured;
       (3) imports into Indiana;
       (4) keeps for sale;
       (5) offers or exposes for sale; or
       (6) gives, lends, or possesses;
any sawed-off shotgun commits dealing in a sawed-off shotgun, a Class D felony.
 

What process do we have to endure to get this silly law changed? Who do we need to contact?

Contact your state legislators. The easiest way to fix this would be to add an exemption similar to the one that already exists in the Indiana Code for the possession of machineguns:

IC 35-47-5-10
Applicability of statutes relating to machine guns
    Sec. 10. The provisions of section 8 or 9 of this chapter shall not be construed to apply to any of the following:
    <<snip>>
       (7) Persons possessing, or having applied to possess, machine guns under applicable United States statutes. Such machine guns must be transferred as provided in this article.
     

Quoted: but it irks me to no end that we cannot be trusted to own an SBS. Another thing that bugs me is not being allowed to use a sound suppressor while varmint and smallgame hunting

I think I am even more irked and bugged by these than you are?  How do we measure these things in real numbers?  Down the road I am going to rig up an AOW with a sling, just so I can have soemthing like aned SBS, but it would be almost for personal satisfaction, not real world use.  I have read on how to use an AOW, but it would never be the same as a 14" Benelli.

This is my own personal mumbo jumbo here, but it seems the shotgun thing also has some historical carry over from the gangster days, Dillinger etc.. My own personal opinion I came to when reading on this years ago.  Too stupid to understand.

PS in KY, no night hunting predators.  I was amazed by that.

I e-mailed the following letter to State Senator Brent Steele and State Representative Eric Koch a few moments ago:

As someone who voted for you in the last election, I am writing to you today to find out how I could get Indiana law changed to allow properly-registered sawed-off shotguns to be possessed by legal citizens of the state of Indiana.

I am a lawful collector of various NFA items such as machineguns, silencers, etc. Indiana law allows citizens to own such items as long as they abide by the federal process to own such regulated items. Indiana allows all NFA items with the exception of sawed-off shotguns. What strikes me as odd is that a shotgun with a barrel less than 18" is legal in Indiana if it has a pistol grip (this is classified as an AOW [Any Other Weapon] and is registered as such by the BATFE), but it is illegal in Indiana if it has a buttstock in place of the pistol grip.

I cannot see the legal distinction between the two, especially when considering that a short-barrel shotgun with a pistol grip is easier to conceal than one with a full buttstock. Therefore, I cannot rationalize why one is legal under Indiana law, while the other is not.

Indiana law concerning machineguns has a provision for the lawful ownership of machineguns by those who have registered their machineguns with the BATFE. I would like to see one section of the sawed-off shotgun code changed to allow a similar provision for legal ownership.


IC 35-47-5-4.1
Sawed-off shotgun
Sec. 4.1. (a) A person who:
(1) manufactures;
(2) causes to be manufactured;
(3) imports into Indiana;
(4) keeps for sale;
(5) offers or exposes for sale; or
(6) gives, lends, or possesses;
any sawed-off shotgun commits dealing in a sawed-off shotgun, a Class D felony.
(b) The presence of a weapon referred to in subsection (a) in a motor vehicle (as defined under IC 9-13-2-105(a)) except for school buses and a vehicle operated in the transportation of passengers by a common carrier (as defined in IC 8-2.1-17-4) creates an inference that the weapon is in the possession of the persons occupying the motor vehicle. However, the inference does not apply to all the persons occupying the motor vehicle if the weapon is found upon, or under the control of, one (1) of the occupants. In addition, the inference does not apply to a duly licensed driver of a motor vehicle for hire who finds the weapon in the licensed driver's motor vehicle in the proper pursuit of the licensed driver's trade.
(c) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting in the course of the officer's official duties or to a person who manufactures or imports for sale or sells a sawed-off shotgun to a law enforcement agency.
As added by P.L.1-1990, SEC.351. Amended by P.L.2-1991, SEC.107.


I would like to amend section (c) to allow another legal option such as the machine gun clause below: (c) This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting in the course of the officer's official duties or to a person who manufactures or imports for sale or sells a sawed-off shotgun to a law enforcement agency or to a person possessing, or having applied to possess, sawed-off shotguns under applicable United States statutes. Such sawed-off shotguns must be transferred as provided in this article.


Below is the code concerning machineguns in Indiana. Plese note the exemption in #7:

IC 35-47-5-8
Machine gun
Sec. 8. A person who owns or possesses a machine gun commits a Class C felony.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.104-2000, SEC.3; P.L.123-2002, SEC.43.
IC 35-47-5-9
Operating loaded machine gun
Sec. 9. A person who operates a loaded machine gun commits a Class B felony.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.104-2000, SEC.4; P.L.123-2002, SEC.44.

IC 35-47-5-10
Applicability of statutes relating to machine guns
Sec. 10. The provisions of section 8 or 9 of this chapter shall not be construed to apply to any of the following:
(1) Members of the military or naval forces of the United States, National Guard of Indiana, or Indiana State Guard, when on duty or practicing.
(2) Machine guns kept for display as relics and which are rendered harmless and not usable.
(3) Any of the law enforcement officers of this state or the United States while acting in the furtherance of their duties.
(4) Persons lawfully engaged in the display, testing, or use of fireworks.
(5) Agencies of state government.
(6) Persons permitted by law to engage in the business of manufacturing, assembling, conducting research on, or testing machine guns, airplanes, tanks, armored vehicles, or ordnance equipment or supplies while acting within the scope of such business.
(7) Persons possessing, or having applied to possess, machine guns under applicable United States statutes. Such machine guns must be transferred as provided in this article.
(8) Persons lawfully engaged in the manufacture, transportation, distribution, use or possession of any material, substance, or device for the sole purpose of industrial, agricultural, mining, construction, educational, or any other lawful use.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.104-2000, SEC.5; P.L.123-2002, SEC.45.


Thank you very much for your cooperation in this matter. It is greatly appreciated.

M4

AFAIK, you can own an SBS, if it is factory produced.  Popguns was selling 590 SBS's a few years back.  They did come with the $200 tax rather than $5.  But they were selling them?

Quoted: AFAIK, you can own an SBS, if it is factory produced.

Where in the law does it say this? The wording of the IC seems pretty cut-and-dry. The only exemption for posession of a "sawed off shotgun" is law enforcement and dealers, as posted above.

Popguns was selling 590 SBS's a few years back.  They did come with the $200 tax rather than $5.  But they were selling them?

Of course an SBS would carry a $200 tax; it's only existing AOWs that are $5.00 to transfer. I'm betting the SBS 590s were for sale to LE only, which would be compliant with state law (see above).

Quoted: Quoted: AFAIK, you can own an SBS, if it is factory produced.   Where in the law does it say this? The wording of the IC seems pretty cut-and-dry. The only exemption for posession of a "sawed off shotgun" is law enforcement and dealers, as posted above. Popguns was selling 590 SBS's a few years back.  They did come with the $200 tax rather than $5.  But they were selling them? Of course an SBS would carry a $200 tax; it's only existing AOWs that are $5.00 to transfer. I'm betting the SBS 590s were for sale to LE only, which would be compliant with state law (see above).

My buddy, a non-LEO purchased one, as well as a Benelli 14" Entry shotgun from another dealer?  Not going to point out laws, but first hand knowledge of transfers that happened?  I am as confused as the next guy about it, but as I said, I've seen it happen.

Would IN law affect DD items like the Streetsweeper, Striker-12, and USAS-12?  They're no longer shotguns under Federal law, at least...

Mike

Quoted: My buddy, a non-LEO purchased one, as well as a Benelli 14" Entry shotgun from another dealer?  Not going to point out laws, but first hand knowledge of transfers that happened?  I am as confused as the next guy about it, but as I said, I've seen it happen.

I've heard of instances such as this before, but figure that these SBS transfers were just oversights on the BATF's part.

I received a reply from my state senator Brent Steele today:

David,

I have wondered at the distinction between the pistol grip -vs- regular stock myself, as has my brother who is a collector. There is no rationale obviously other than the law got drafted against sawed off shotguns and that was it. There would have to be legislation passed to make exception assuming of course there is a BATF license.  Help me to understand -- does the BATF federally issue a stamp for sawed off shotguns just like they do full-automatics?

Brent

Quoted: Would IN law affect DD items like the Streetsweeper, Striker-12, and USAS-12?  They're no longer shotguns under Federal law, at least... Mike

Indiana allows DD's.

kinda like ar/ak pistols can't have provision for buttstock or vert grip but my glock pistol came equiped with both

Quoted: Quoted: Would IN law affect DD items like the Streetsweeper, Striker-12, and USAS-12?  They're no longer shotguns under Federal law, at least... Mike I figgered' you'ld be interested in this thread Mike. I was just about to sent you a link when you posted.

I'm keeping watch.  

Here's to hoping they ditch the non-sbs rules.  Then again, it is an excuse to finally pick up a Striker-12 if UI-B were to admit me.  

Mike

Pop Guns sells AOW's, not SBS's.  It's a short barrelled pistol grip 590.  Put a full stock on it & it becomes an illegal SBS.

This law makes a helluva lot of sense to me.

Quoted: kinda like ar/ak pistols can't have provision for buttstock or vert grip but my glock pistol came equiped with both

One reason why I may drop the jack to turn a 10mm Glock into an SBR.  Then I can use the 10mm for deer with the stock in KY and without in Indiana, but also run a .45 upper on the same lower.  All for shits and giggles, but kind of fun to think about.

If anyone is interested, we have a lot of political and legal talk and activism in the Indiana Clubhouse at GlockTalk.  We even have a topic devoted to which legislative issues we'd like to tackle next and some of the central Indiana people are getting together next week to discuss things in person.

M4M,  Good deal on the reply from the .gov.  Keep on him.  He seems receptive.  Certainly I'd like to own a Saiga 12 with a 14" barrel, but we'd need to get that changed.  Sounds great.  

Received another e-mail from Senator Brent Steele today:

Yes, there is a way I think to do this- I am going to see to it that your email is forwarded to Senator Brent Waltz because he has a license for full-auto and is into shooting full-auto and is well aware of all requirements.

Brent

Good to hear, and free bump.  

I think the route to go one this one is the same as machine gun language making them illegal except use the exception rule rather than just saying they are legal.

Quoted: Received another e-mail from Senator Brent Steele today: Yes, there is a way I think to do this- I am going to see to it that your email is forwarded to Senator Brent Waltz because he has a license for full-auto and is into shooting full-auto and is well aware of all requirements. Brent

******ATTENTION******ATTENTION*******ATTENTION********ATTENTION

If there is a chance that a State Senator or Representative will assist with legislation of this kind, he must be rewarded ASAP with offers to help in his campaign or with donations.  Politicians are human and they appreciate help when they help others.  Emails, letters, phone calls are great, but never forget that a person gets into and stays in office only because of people who generously give their hours and dollars to their campaigns.

Any legislation involving firearms law is potentially controversial, or even explosive, and can be used by opponents as an issue to attack.  If we are going to ask an elected official to carry our flag into battle, the least we can do is support him or her in advance of the coming campaign.  I cannot over-stress the importance of helping those who help us!

Good point Commish. Contribution inbound.

This will be a good thing if we can get the reps to help out with it and also understand this is something that is tight knit when it comes to applying for that transfer. The wrong people will not have any legally registered ones because of the paperwork process. It will always be the unregistered crap the criminals will have.

Lawsuit

Lawsuit--- I would use this as the last resort. It would be very expensive and put lawmakers on the defensive. None of which IMHO is the way to go. Best way is to "killem with kindness" as well as educate them with the current laws on MG purchases and transfers (as well as form1 for making). Most lawmakers have no clue that the process would be the same, thus making OK since it would be a well regulated and documented.