User Panel
Posted: 2/2/2009 8:22:07 PM EDT
A freind of a freind is hosting this in San Diego. Just trying to spread the word a bit.
open carry blog |
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What is this? Unloaded Open Carry (UOC) of a firearm meeting. A bunch of people UOCing meet up in a public place to draw exposure to the legality of doing it. Trying to reassert 2A rights in California. |
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Political activism. Scare the sheep in the hopes of forcing the legislature adopt a shall issue CCW policy.
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I have a question on Unloaded Open Carry maybe someone can answer. I read up on some of it, (specifically the OC Sherrif's department training alert/memo) and I was wondering about non CA residents carrying. The SD's guidance says the officer is to inspect the unloaded firearm and check registration status (all at gunpoint. It's up to the officer). Non-resident = no CA registration. So is it legal for a non-CA resident to carry while visiting?
Anyway, good luck with the meeting. Sounds like a fun way to educate/scare the shit out of people. I live in a state where I can open carry almost everywhere and I rarely do. I must rectify that. |
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Unloaded? Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see that word anywhere in the blog.
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Unloaded? Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see that word anywhere in the blog. Whether it's in the blog or not, in order to stay legal in California the firearm has to be unloaded (except in rare circumstances). The relevant penal codes are PC12025, 12026 and 12031. Unloaded open carry is completely legal, provided you're not within 1000 feet of a school zone. |
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I have a question on Unloaded Open Carry maybe someone can answer. I read up on some of it, (specifically the OC Sherrif's department training alert/memo) and I was wondering about non CA residents carrying. The SD's guidance says the officer is to inspect the unloaded firearm and check registration status (all at gunpoint. It's up to the officer). Non-resident = no CA registration. So is it legal for a non-CA resident to carry while visiting? Anyway, good luck with the meeting. Sounds like a fun way to educate/scare the shit out of people. I live in a state where I can open carry almost everywhere and I rarely do. I must rectify that. In CA... ... Handguns are not required to be registered. Except for new CA residents that moved to CA from another state. It is not illegal to own an unregistered firearm in CA. However, an unregistered handgun does make certain crimes, like carrying concealed without a permit, a felony instead of a misdemeanor. Unloaded Open Carry of a non-registered handgun is legal, where ever Unloaded Open Carry is legal. |
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Unloaded? Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see that word anywhere in the blog. Whether it's in the blog or not, in order to stay legal in California the firearm has to be unloaded (except in rare circumstances). The relevant penal codes are PC12025, 12026 and 12031. Unloaded open carry is completely legal, provided you're not within 1000 feet of a school zone. Or in a public meeting/polling place, or in an area than bans firearms possession like some city, county and state parks. |
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Unloaded? Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see that word anywhere in the blog. Whether it's in the blog or not, in order to stay legal in California the firearm has to be unloaded (except in rare circumstances). The relevant penal codes are PC12025, 12026 and 12031. Unloaded open carry is completely legal, provided you're not within 1000 feet of a school zone. Or in a public meeting/polling place, or in an area than bans firearms possession like some city, county and state parks. Thanks, I knew I was forgetting a couple of the prohibited areas . |
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Hope to see some ARFCOMMERS there. sounds like alot of fun to me. cant wait to get out on the front lines and do something for the 2nd here in this liberal state.
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Hope to see some ARFCOMMERS there. sounds like alot of fun to me. cant wait to get out on the front lines and do something for the 2nd here in this liberal state. Going shooting sounds like fun. Standing around with holstered unloaded guns sounds like a boring publicity stunt. But we all enjoy different things. |
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Hope to see some ARFCOMMERS there. sounds like alot of fun to me. cant wait to get out on the front lines and do something for the 2nd here in this liberal state. Going shooting sounds like fun. Standing around with holstered unloaded guns sounds like a boring publicity stunt. But we all enjoy different things. Sometimes you have to endure one to enjoy the other. Good luck to you guys. |
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How do you register it? My mother used to CC without a permit, a gun she bought through a dealer, is that "registered" enough? Gawd, Cali sucks! I used to live there, love the weather, most people, great heritage/history there, but damn, the .gov sucks!
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How do you register it?... Handguns get registered when they are transferred. The state's Dealer's Record Of Sale (DROS) system captures make, model, and serial number. 03 FFLs can buy C&R handguns out of state, but we are required to register them when we bring them in to Cali. There's a paper form for that purpose. Also, new residents can bring in handguns but are required to register them on the same form. |
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If you want to know what the Police Departments are being instructed to do, here it is:
CITIZEN CARRYING FIREARM IN PLAIN VIEW December 02, 2008 It has recently come to our attention from a variety of points around the State that officers are with increasing frequency encountering individuals carrying holstered pistols in plain view on a gun belt, but with ammunition close at hand either in bandolier fashion or a loaded magazine affixed to the gun belt. It is believed that these individuals are attempting to provoke a law enforcement response in order to test whether responding officers will take inappropriate action in the face of ostensibly lawful exercise of the right to bear arms. The history of Penal Code §12031 is helpful to an understanding of this issue. Prior to 1967, it was lawful in California for an adult, not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm, to carry a loaded firearm in plain view in public and in an incorporated city. Only the carrying of a concealed firearm was proscribed. However, early in May of 1967, a group of Black Panthers marched into the California legislature fully armed. Shocked that this conduct was not, at the time, unlawful, the Legislature enacted Penal Code §12031, effective July 28, 1967, thereafter proscribing the carrying of a loaded firearm in public, even if not concealed. With that background in mind, it is noted that Penal Code §12031 provides in pertinent part that: 1. (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory. (Emphasis added) Subdivision (g) of §12031 provides that: A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder. (Emphasis added) While Penal Code §12025 addresses carrying a concealed firearm, subdivision (f) of that statute expressly declares that “Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.” Here, the situation presented is of an adult person carrying an unloaded firearm in plain view in public. While there is close at hand ammunition for said firearm, the ammunition is we are told not attached to the firearm. Even if the ammunition was, for instance, taped to the firearm, it is questionable whether this would constitute “loading” of the firearm in light of the holding in People v. Clark, (1996) 45 Cal. App. 4th 1147, 1152, where the court of appeal, dealing with the question of whether the defendant had committed the offense of possession of methamphetamine while armed with a loaded, operable firearm, held that: Under the commonly understood meaning of the term "loaded," a firearm is "loaded" when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired; the shotgun is not "loaded" if the shell or cartridge is stored elsewhere and not yet placed in a firing position. The shells here were placed in a separate storage compartment of the shotgun and were not yet "loaded" as the term is commonly understood. Even if Pen. Code, § 12031, subd. (g), was applicable, the Legislature's use of the phrase "attached in any manner" to the firearm was intended to encompass a situation where a shell or cartridge might be attached to a firearm or "loaded" for firing by some unconventional method. And, to the extent an ambiguity existed, the construction more favorable to defendant should be adopted. Anomalous as it may seem in this day and age, it is not, for the reasons aforesaid, unlawful for an adult who is not otherwise legally disabled from possession of a firearm to carry an unloaded firearm in plain view in public in an incorporated city. And the firearm does not become “loaded” for purposes of a violation of §12031 if there is a loaded magazine or other carry of ammunition close at hand. Furthermore, we doubt that a local ordinance could be enacted to close this gap by, for instance, making it a violation of a city’s municipal code to carry an unloaded and unconcealed firearm in public. In this regard, please note Article XI, §7 of the California Constitution, which provides that: A county or city may make and enforce within its limits all local, police, sanitary, and other ordinances and regulations not in conflict with general laws. The California Supreme Court has identified three types of conflict that cause preemption of local legislation: A conflict exists if the local legislation duplicates, contradicts, or enters an area fully occupied by general law, either expressly or by legislative implication. Local legislation is contradictory to general law when it is inimical thereto. A local ordinance is preempted by a state statute only to the extent that the two conflict. Action Apartment Assn., Inc. v. City of Santa Monica, (2007) 41 Cal. 4th 1232. For a local ordinance to proscribe that which is allowed under State law would perforce be to contradict state law. Furthermore, given the extent of State regulation of dangerous weapons, it would seem apparent that the State has “fully occupied” this area by its general laws. However, officers may rely upon §12031(e), which provides that: In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section. The end result of this analysis is to conclude that the conduct at issue is lawful, albeit alarming, and can only be regulated in a manner consistent with existing State law. HOW DOES THIS AFFECT YOUR AGENCY? Presentation of an individual walking down the street carrying a pistol in a holster raises obvious tactical issues, as well as safety concerns for both officers and the public. Other than to note these safety and tactical issues, we would urge that officers be alerted of this issue, that there is a possibility that they may encounter this behavior, and that they should be prepared to respond appropriately. Field personnel should be made aware of the current state of the law as set forth above and cautioned that this is not behavior warranting arrest, but that they are legally entitled under §12031(e) to demand inspection of any such firearms in order to ascertain that the weapon is unloaded. If the firearm is unloaded, it should be returned and the subject released to go about his/her lawful business. Of course, if the firearm is loaded – as defined above – then an arrest is appropriate. Any refusal to allow inspection of the firearm constitutes cause for immediate arrest for a violation of §12031. You are encouraged to consult with your designated legal counsel for further advice on this or any other matter. |
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Sounds like a somewhat common sense bulletin, Here's the law guys, here's exactly what it means. In other words no matter what your Chief used to say, or the Mayor of City council says, this is what you should do.
In fact the idea of the carriers is to get a reaction NOT in accordance with the law, this violation of the state law or arrest is then used to go after the city and/or officers with the idea of eventually getting a series of favorable decisions getting closer to more reasonable carry laws. As a strapped taxpayer, I would prefer that my tax dollars not be used in litigation that can be avoided. And since there are times when I just might decide that carrying in this fashion might not be a bad idea. Like when I get home from work at 2 freaking AM and decide to take the knucklehead dog for a walk to get us both tired enough to sleep. I would prefer that my local gendarmerie is up to speed on the concept. |
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bumb for tomorrow is the big day. if you plan on going head over to THIS thread and drop a note so they can get an idea of the head count.
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What if you witness a hostile situation (i.e. armed robbery, car jacking, your life threatened)? Are you gonna throw it at the attacker?
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What if you witness a hostile situation (i.e. armed robbery, car jacking, your life threatened)? Are you gonna throw it at the attacker? Lock and load. |
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What if you witness a hostile situation (i.e. armed robbery, car jacking, your life threatened)? Are you gonna throw it at the attacker? While that might be what you in Nevada might do, in CA you could then load and use lawfully. |
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What if you witness a hostile situation (i.e. armed robbery, car jacking, your life threatened)? Are you gonna throw it at the attacker? I couldn't fine Nevada's home is your castle law but here's our's. Looks like your situation is covered under #1. California Penal Code 197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed
by any person in any of the following cases: 1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or, 2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or, 3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or, 4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace. I'm not certain but it looks like Nevada's open carry is exactly the same as ours. Open Carry In Nevada, you may carry a loaded or unloaded firearm on your person without a permit so long as the firearm is fully exposed (known as "open carry"). An example of open carry is when a handgun is carried in an "outside the pants" hip holster. Full or partial concealment (such as a purse, jacket, etc.) is considered "concealed carry" and is discussed below. Whoa, I take that back! Those are some messed up laws. Can I Carry a Concealed Firearm?
It is illegal for a person to carry a concealed firearm on his person, loaded or unloaded, unless he has a valid concealed weapon permit, or is legally entitled to do so otherwise. Can I Conceal a Firearm Without a Permit? Without a CCW permit, a firearm may be concealed in your home or vehicle as long as it is not on your person, concealed by your person, or in a personal item (such as a purse, backpack, briefcase) carried by you. I did read that Nevada assemblyman Harry Mortenson is attempting to get a home is your castle law in Nevada. Good on him and we wish you the best of luck. Ours has been in existence for about a couple of decades and has served us well. I do note that some of the other states are opening their eyes and following our lead and about 15 states now have such laws. |
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I never understood the need to open carry unloaded or loaded, if you have to shoot someone wont you get in a heap of trouble, at the minimum discharging a firearm in public, or if you fired it wouldnt they charge you with having a loaded weapon even if its unloaded when they show up. Or does the reason your life was in danger go above the other laws. I would think concealed carry is the best way even though its impossible for a normal person to get it.
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I never understood the need to open carry unloaded or loaded, if you have to shoot someone wont you get in a heap of trouble, at the minimum discharging a firearm in public, or if you fired it wouldnt they charge you with having a loaded weapon even if its unloaded when they show up. Or does the reason your life was in danger go above the other laws. I would think concealed carry is the best way even though its impossible for a normal person to get it. I don't agree with the open carry philosophy, but I understand why they are doing it. At least they are doing something to try and get the laws changed, make people aware of the issues, and believe in what they are doing enough to put themselves in the spotlight. Any shooting is going to cause you a multitude of problems. You never know how you will actually deal with shooting someone else, the civil litigation involved, and the publicity heaped upon you. In California, if it is a good shoot, you will not be charged. If it is a bad shoot, you will be charged. And yes, if your life is at risk, you can defend it with a loaded firearm. Concealed carry is the best option, but you are right, it is not readily available. The best advice is to know the law. |
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I never understood the need to open carry unloaded or loaded, if you have to shoot someone wont you get in a heap of trouble, at the minimum discharging a firearm in public, or if you fired it wouldnt they charge you with having a loaded weapon even if its unloaded when they show up. Or does the reason your life was in danger go above the other laws. I would think concealed carry is the best way even though its impossible for a normal person to get it. I don't agree with the open carry philosophy, but I understand why they are doing it. At least they are doing something to try and get the laws changed, make people aware of the issues, and believe in what they are doing enough to put themselves in the spotlight. Any shooting is going to cause you a multitude of problems. You never know how you will actually deal with shooting someone else, the civil litigation involved, and the publicity heaped upon you. In California, if it is a good shoot, you will not be charged. If it is a bad shoot, you will be charged. And yes, if your life is at risk, you can defend it with a loaded firearm. Concealed carry is the best option, but you are right, it is not readily available. The best advice is to know the law. I have no problem with being on your property shooting someone, but when your out open carrying you almost take it upon yourself to pull it out if something happens, if not you may get disarmed. If your going to pull it out you may also load it. I think we need to concentrate on the ccw, getting the law changed for that. If no one see's the weapon it gives you more discretion on when to use it if needed. I can just picture a crowd of anti gunners taunting everyone, maybe throwing rocks at them. What do you think would happen next. Im glad others are doing something for all of us, I just dont know if it could cause more trouble then its worth. There are to many wackos out there trying to cause trouble for everyone else. |
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I never understood the need to open carry unloaded or loaded, if you have to shoot someone wont you get in a heap of trouble, at the minimum discharging a firearm in public, or if you fired it wouldnt they charge you with having a loaded weapon even if its unloaded when they show up. Or does the reason your life was in danger go above the other laws. I would think concealed carry is the best way even though its impossible for a normal person to get it. I don't agree with the open carry philosophy, but I understand why they are doing it. At least they are doing something to try and get the laws changed, make people aware of the issues, and believe in what they are doing enough to put themselves in the spotlight. Any shooting is going to cause you a multitude of problems. You never know how you will actually deal with shooting someone else, the civil litigation involved, and the publicity heaped upon you. In California, if it is a good shoot, you will not be charged. If it is a bad shoot, you will be charged. And yes, if your life is at risk, you can defend it with a loaded firearm. Concealed carry is the best option, but you are right, it is not readily available. The best advice is to know the law. I have no problem with being on your property shooting someone, but when your out open carrying you almost take it upon yourself to pull it out if something happens, if not you may get disarmed. If your going to pull it out you may also load it. I think we need to concentrate on the ccw, getting the law changed for that. If no one see's the weapon it gives you more discretion on when to use it if needed. I can just picture a crowd of anti gunners taunting everyone, maybe throwing rocks at them. What do you think would happen next. Im glad others are doing something for all of us, I just don't know if it could cause more trouble then its worth. There are to many wackos out there trying to cause trouble for everyone else. I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying I understand why they are doing what they are doing. FWIW, the PD is always in attendance and things have always gone smoothly. I'm not sure if anyone actually carries in the open outside of these gatherings as I am in Utah, not California. I don't like to draw attention to myself so I would not open carry. I retired from LE in San Diego and as far as the shooting aspect goes, knowing the law is the best solution for involving yourself in a shooting. |
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yes the organizer of this event and his brothers (all in CA) open carry by themselfs quite often.
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yes the organizer of this event and his brothers (all in CA) open carry by themselfs quite often. Have any pics from Saturday to post? |
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yes the organizer of this event and his brothers (all in CA) open carry by themselfs quite often. Have any pics from Saturday to post? How did it go? |
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In PB huh? Nice, too bad you guys weren't there during the infamous Labor Day "riot". Maybe we'd still be allowed to drink on the sand.
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I can just picture a crowd of anti gunners taunting everyone, maybe throwing rocks at them. I don't think there is much doubt that a rock is a weapon, a deadly weapon. Throwing a rock at someone is an assault with a deadly weapon. The disparity of force between one individual and a hostile mob throwing rocks at you is so serious it is time to get out of there. In my opinion, if you cannot get out, if they assault you with deadly weapons, you would be justified in defending yourself. |
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I wonder how that would have gone had there been only two men standing there armed and had the "event" not been advertised and the "skids" not been "greased" with the police.
In other words, what if you tried to do it for real?? |
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Check out some of the stories on CalGuns. Although it seems that a lot of departments are getting the word on waht the law really means and now what the Chief or City Council want may not fly.
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http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=160463
http://caopencarry.blogspot.com/ Friday, March 6, 2009 To the interested members of ARFCOM... Dear ARFCOM members, I have tried to sign up for the ARFCOM multiple times but since I do not have the lame ISP email address in my name (nor do we even know it) I have had generally lurk on ARFCOM and watch some of the threads, particularly the one concerning the recent SD outing. I would like to lay a little groundwork for you guys so that you all actually know what occurred. 1) We invited only one police officer to join us in off-duty capacity. He is a personal friend of Calguns members and the OC movement and a good man, which is why we invited him. Word got around the station and the Captain decided to get in on it and bring extra guys along, apparently due to her "strong ties to the community." In essence, they generally came to our party uninvited, not the other way around. In the end though, it was beneficial but still unnecessary. 2) In the future, we are going to have meets where the cops are not informed of them. As our SOP, we will inform them the first 2-3 meets FORMALLY and after that, all communication will be dropped. If there is going to be any reform in the carry laws the cops need to understand that unless they issue CCW permits, they will keep getting their resources drained. An exception to the notification rule is the El Cajon Police Department, for they have been a little too uppity for my liking and I think it would be fun to screw with them. 3) "Carry for real?" Sure, I plan to go down there by myself sometime to see the sights without notifying anyone, as it is my legal right. Not a lot of pretty women here at UCSD so the boardwalk is oh-so-enticing. In fact, I think I will wear it crossdraw just to add some extra-visible "realism" for you guys. :) 4) If you want to check out the various open carry stories, go to the Californiaopencarry.org and Opencarry.org (California section) to read more about the various stories and police interactions that various citizens have posted. For a full writeup of the San Diego Open Carry Outing, click here. If you have any questions, feel free to email me, comment on this post or even post on the ARFCOM thread here, as I shall be watching it as you all go along. its not me this is a fellow member there.... |
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First off, that fellow member is full of shit. There were plenty of hot chicks at my alumni. I dare him to open carry on any other day in PB or any other populated county in SD and he'd get the shit beat out of him, by citizens and cops. It's legal to open carry locked and loaded in NV but have personally seen cowboys and ghetto gangsters get the shit beat out of them on the Las Vegas strip by cops for carrying openly. It may be legal but not okay in city limits or private property. Keep the John Wayne attitude on the outskirts of town. I'm sure that's the case for most populated areas, no matter what state.
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