I saw this today in the San Diego Union Tribune:

Lockyer wants handgun ammo branded

He sees promise in laser etching system

By James P. Sweeney
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE

October 6, 2004

SACRAMENTO – For years, manufacturers have branded computer chips and airline parts with microscopic codes that identify each piece and protect against counterfeiting and theft.

The figures, etched with a laser and as small as the width of two human hairs, are nearly invisible to the naked eye but easily read with an electronic magnifying glass.

After a promising internal study, California Attorney General Bill Lockyer has concluded the same high-tech tracking system could be a powerful new weapon against crime, particularly gun violence.

Lockyer wants to brand all handgun ammunition sold in the state. The ammunition and information about people who buy it would be electronically recorded with the same system now used for gun sales and stored in a database available to law enforcement.

Lockyer and his top firearms expert have briefed law enforcement leaders on the system and the Democratic attorney general is expected to introduce it at an anti-crime summit this week in Los Angeles.

The move figures to touch off the next big fight over gun-control in California, which already has some of the most stringent gun laws in the nation.

"Most of the guns used in crime – 80 percent – are handguns," said Randy Rossi, director of the firearms division at the state Department of Justice. "We want to see how well this works and give it a sunset. If it doesn't work, abandon it. But there is no reason in the world to believe it won't work."

The plan would require putting serial numbers on all handgun ammunition possessed in public, sold or imported into the state. To accommodate law-abiding sport shooters and those who reload their own cartridges, anyone on their way to or from a shooting range or hunting trip would be exempt. It's unclear how this provision would work, with supporters acknowledging that details on many aspects of the system need to be worked out.

The microstamping system under study was developed by a Washington state company, Ravensforge. The company engraves shell casings and bullets with a matching serial number. All of the cartridges in a box packaged for retail sale would have the same serial number, which could be scanned and linked to a purchaser's driver license number, Rossi said.

The state's more than 1,600 licensed firearms dealers already have the electronic equipment to record the information – scanning the code on the ammunition box and electronically swiping the driver license – in the same way they collect required personal information for gun transactions.

Rossi initially was skeptical that a bullet's number would be legible after it was fired.

A test of 200 rounds fired from close range into walls, car doors, bulletproof vests, rubber matting and a gel designed to simulate a human target convinced him the technology is sound.

Of 181 slugs recovered – including soft lead bullets that largely flattened out – the tiny code could be read on 180 of them with a simple electronic magnifying scope.

"We tried to prove this doesn't work," he said. "To have it work virtually every time, I was very surprised."

Lockyer seized on the system as an alternative to ballistics fingerprinting, which relies on unique, microscopic imperfections in shell casings and slugs. The attorney general angered gun-control advocates last year when his office concluded that ballistics imaging required a massive database and would prove ineffective unless launched as part of national system.

By tracking ammunition, which Rossi said has a relatively short shelf life, the state could develop a much broader database than an alternative that applies only to new handguns.

The attorney general's aides concede the microstamping proposal faces daunting political and financial obstacles. Manufacturers, gun-control and gun-rights activists – none of whom were involved in the initial study – are raising questions.

Gary Mehalik of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, a trade association for manufacturers of ammunition and firearms, said the caliber of guns used in any test could have been a critical factor in the results.

The state tested 9 millimeter, .38, .40 and .45 caliber handguns. No .22 caliber weapons were used and microstamping has not yet been applied to .22 caliber ammunition, the most common used by sport shooters.

Rossi and Paul Curry, a lobbyist for Ravensforge, said the serial numbers could be applied for a penny or less per cartridge. But Mehalik predicted it would be expensive to add a manufacturing process that matches casings and bullets, and then packages them in a box with the same code number.

"We'd have to analyze the costs, but I can tell you that it would create a logistical nightmare inside the current production systems," Mehalik said.

A leading gun-rights group dismissed the proposal as an ill-conceived, high-tech version of gun registration.

"The technology is certainly there, but all of the technology can be defeated by anyone who wants to defeat it," said Sam Paredes of the 30,000-member Gun Owners of California.

Many gun owners make their own ammunition and reuse lead and shell casings, Paredes said.

"Gang members in South Central or East Los Angeles, they're going to know this ammunition is tainted," Paredes said. "So they're going to pay somebody a little bit of money to load some ammunition for them and they're clean."

But they won't be legal if caught with unmarked ammo in public, Rossi said.

"We could get some gang bangers who all of a sudden take an interest and study reloading . . . but I hardly think so," Rossi said. "These are the same people that won't even bother to put a glove on when they're committing a crime or put some mud on their license plate.

"This won't solve every crime, but it will solve a lot of crimes."

Can anyone here say "Fucktard"

When does Lockyer's term expire?

Ya'll are screwed! Give up and get out. Once they start losing everybody except the liberals and the illegals, they'll go bankrupt and you guys can go back and take over the government with elections.

Quoted: Can anyone here say "Fucktard" When does Lockyer's term expire?

Not soon enough.

What a total IDIOT!

Why don't we just do what they did in the Stallone movie Judge Dredd and have our dna encoded into every bullet that we shoot.

Heck why don't we go a step further and have guns that take dna samples everytime someone holds the gun and only allows police officers access to its firing mechanisms.

Oh crap I should stop talking I'm giving those idiots more lame ideas!

For ammunition sold in state, eh?

So what happens when I buy from Ammoman?

And didn't the ammunition tracking program get vetoed by Arnold last month? Sometimes I think we have a few too many girly men here.

Quoted: For ammunition sold in state, eh? So what happens when I buy from Ammoman? And didn't the ammunition tracking program get vetoed by Arnold last month? Sometimes I think we have a few too many girly men here.

A "FEW" too many?  Better check again.

"Most of the guns used in crime – 80 percent – are handguns,"

But I thought that assault weapons were the #1 choice for criminals??  WTF...have the gun control people been lying to me?  How rude!

Look for Lockyear to run for Kali-fornia governor when Ahhnold's term runs out, or if Ahhnold decides to not to run for another term.

I hope his brakes fail and he plummets off a cliff.

Rossi said. "These are the same people that won't even bother to put a glove on when they're committing a crime or put some mud on their license plate.

No shit! Then why have all the gun laws in the first place?

There must be another reason..............................

a bankrupt state has money to pay for all the recording and storage of bullet info ?
with all the ammo shot in this state in a year it wouldnt take long for them to run out of serial numbers or a place to store all those numbers.
the state is only creating a black market for out of state ammo. imagine the gangster drives a load of drugs to vegas for the weekend, comes back into town with a trunk load of unrecorded ammo.

what happens if ammo that is registered to me is stolen?
"hello police, i want to report a stolen box of 45auto ... i dont know the serial numbers .. its on my drivers license info just look at that .... oh you mean i have over 300 different boxes of ammo registered to me and you cant tell me which one ive shot up and which is stolen ?"

and what happens when you shoot your registered ammo?
"hello DOJ, i want to report that i completely shot ammo box number 987-765-345-987665, so please take it off my record... oh you mean its on there for life and when i get too many boxes of ammo registered YOUR AGENTS will visit my home to check on there status ?"


doesnt look like the attorneny nazi general lockyer has thought about this very much ..... OH WAIT HE HAS !!!  HE JUST WANTS AMMO SALES IN THE STATE TO STOP COMPLETELY !!!!! he thinks the ammo companies wont bother to get the equipment and take the time to register ammo so they will have to stop ALL ammo sales.  SNEAKY FUCKING BASTARD PIECE OF SHIT MOTHERFUCKA HOPE YOU BURN IN HELL

Quoted: For ammunition sold in state, eh? So what happens when I buy from Ammoman?

When I buy from Ammoman I avoid the 8.25% sales tax and the UPS lesbian gets pissed off at me because she hates heavy packages.

The AG has no power to do anything about importation of ammo for personal use.

California_Kid: The ammo companies just simply won't ship ammo into Kali-fornia.

FINALLY! some reasonable and sensible gun legislation that will deter crime

"Gang members in South Central or East Los Angeles..."  All they ever mention are gang members.

Looks like when they can't control the "Gang Bangers", they initiate more gun legislation or pass some stupid ill-conceived law.  Too many unsolved "Gang" crimes makes the AG look bad.

I hate it when people blame everything and everybody but themselves when they do a bad job.

Well, I guess everyone needs a scapegoat for gross incompetence

Tony

Last time I checked, "gang bangers" didn't really give a shit about the law..

Quoted: I saw this today in the San Diego Union Tribune: Lockyer wants handgun ammo branded He sees promise in laser etching system By James P. Sweeney COPLEY NEWS SERVICE October 6, 2004 "Gang members in South Central or East Los Angeles, they're going to know this ammunition is tainted," Paredes said. "So they're going to pay somebody a little bit of money to load some ammunition for them and they're clean." But they won't be legal if caught with unmarked ammo in public, Rossi said. "We could get some gang bangers who all of a sudden take an interest and study reloading . . . but I hardly think so," Rossi said. "These are the same people that won't even bother to put a glove on when they're committing a crime or put some mud on their license plate. "This won't solve every crime, but it will solve a lot of crimes."

OK...first off, why would a gang member on his/her way to commit a crime, most likely carrying an illegal gun, care of the ammo was illegal?????   He/She is already carrying an illegal handgun, why would it matter to them if the ammo was legal or not?

Secondly, if they are so stupid that they don't even wear gloves or cover their license plates, then why can't you catch them already??  

What's next, gun registration, banning certain types of guns...oh yeah, they are already doing that....

Quoted: California_Kid: The ammo companies just simply won't ship ammo into Kali-fornia.

Why not?

Indian tribes ship cigarettes to individuals Kali, avoiding all the state taxes on them.  Shipping ammo here wouldn't be a violation of any federal law, and it wouldn't violate any Kali state law either.

The ever-increasing equity in my house is part of my retirement savings, just like my gun collection.

When I get it paid off, in about 13 years and 9 months or maybe less, I plan to take up official residence in Nevada to avoid taxes and repressive laws and spend as much time as I feel like in my San Diego summer house.

For the time being I can always go to Nevada if I feel like shooting machine guns.  The weather and the pay are too good here for me to bail now.

This was today?


They have argued for this in the past and it got them pretty much laughed right out of the capital when it was brought up.     Could you imagine the hassle this would create, I'd like them to try and put serial numbers on a round of 22lr.     Let's see, how many of us here have gone through that stuff like water due to it being so cheap.    It's probably fair to say that the typical active shooter goes through 2-3k rounds of 22lr. a year, multiply that across the state.

To cover their asses, manufacturers would have to do this with every round they produced for fear that the ammo would wind up in Ca. and they'd liable to the DOJ for not complying with the practice of marking the rounds.     It's likely that the 22lr. would run out of room for placing even lazer engraved numbers due to the number quickly running up into the millions


It's probably a scheme to drive up the costs of ammo into a range where people can no longer afford to shoot.    This would cost the ammunition makers money for having to comply with this hassle of marking rounds and the costs would certainly be passed onto the shooting public.

What's funny is the notion that if somebody is caught in public with unmarked ammo that they will be guilty of some kind of crime.

ERRR, okay, what about the 3-4k rounds of various handgun ammo I currently own.   I suppose it's grandfathered like high capacity magazines or something?     How do you PROVE when a freaking cartridge was made by simply looking at it?     Stupid fucks.

That alone suggests that the bullet itself while loading in the cartridge should provide a visible serial number to check, one that would be prone to being damages by regular handling, firing, and impact with any medium it comes into contact with after being fired.    Not to mention purposely destroyed by those who simply don't want to comply with this idiotic concept.

What about reloading components?


God it is scary when these assholes actually get power bestowed upon them and they circle the wagons trying to pass "reasonable" gun control.

This the same Lockyer who lied about how popular "assault weapons" were with criminals?  And did not want data collected because it did not support their ban?

Sadly, nothing is going to change. Law abiding gun owners will still get the blame for what some sh*thead gang banger does in South Central Los Angeles.

Gunnies in Kali are losing.

This guy has always been a nut.  I don't know how he even got where he is in life.
I suppose next that he'll propose, retrofitting engraving on "pre-engraved" ammo bought years ago.

Unfortunately, people like this are the norm.  I am currently in college here in sunny Kalifornia and I'm taking a public policy class that's filled with the politicians and activists of tomorrow.  I've started something of a running update on each class in the women's forum detailing their bright ideas for the future.  Take a look if you are interested...

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=71&t=281097

When he is elected governor....

Quoted: When does Lockyer's term expire?

So I guess that I will have to take up casting my own bullets.  But what if I do that, they'll probably make up ship it off and pay to have it marked.  But then you reload new ammo in the old shell, mismatching numbers now what?   hmmmm....don't want to move out of state, don't want to stay either.....

It is all about politics and money.....

Pass laws to cover up incompetence in reducing crimes in Kali... Feel good policy with librals.

Increaing the purse of his department with a 1/2 cents tax on "each" branded bullet!

Open up liability law suits with Ammo companies when a box is brought in by some gangbanger from neighboring states.

And yes, they will stop company from shipping ammo to Kali... (Just like they do with high cap mags) with threat of law suits.

How do we impeach the @#$% from office?

Oh, write to your state representitive men/women and the governor....

Let them know we'll not stand for this and THEIR job is on the line!!

yea!!!!!!!!!!!
4.0 gpa. that's one smart cookie. you should listen to tjmz..



meathead

how do they plan on numbering shotgun shells?  going to number EACH PELLET ???

or will shotguns become the murder weapon of choice now  ?

Why the fuck would you not just drive to RENO and bring back a fat load of ammo. You've got to be shitting me.... like people don't know how to drive across a state line to bring back clean ammo.... like gang members will really have to take up reloading. Give me a fuckin break.

Every day I thank God I left that fuckin piece of shit state. Free at last, free at last, thank god almighty....

Quoted: a bankrupt state has money to pay for all the recording and storage of bullet info ? with all the ammo shot in this state in a year it wouldnt take long for them to run out of serial numbers or a place to store all those numbers. the state is only creating a black market for out of state ammo. imagine the gangster drives a load of drugs to vegas for the weekend, comes back into town with a trunk load of unrecorded ammo. what happens if ammo that is registered to me is stolen? "hello police, i want to report a stolen box of 45auto ... i dont know the serial numbers .. its on my drivers license info just look at that .... oh you mean i have over 300 different boxes of ammo registered to me and you cant tell me which one ive shot up and which is stolen ?" and what happens when you shoot your registered ammo? "hello DOJ, i want to report that i completely shot ammo box number 987-765-345-987665, so please take it off my record... oh you mean its on there for life and when i get too many boxes of ammo registered YOUR AGENTS will visit my home to check on there status ?" doesnt look like the attorneny nazi general lockyer has thought about this very much ..... OH WAIT HE HAS !!!  HE JUST WANTS AMMO SALES IN THE STATE TO STOP COMPLETELY !!!!! he thinks the ammo companies wont bother to get the equipment and take the time to register ammo so they will have to stop ALL ammo sales.  SNEAKY FUCKING BASTARD PIECE OF SHIT MOTHERFUCKA HOPE YOU BURN IN HELL

I couldn't have said it any better myself. Extremely well said.

It's supposed to be an experiment in artificial stupidity..