From the ATF letter

IF YOU SUBMIT A NEW APPLICATION TO IMPORT FRAMES, RECEIVERS AND BARRELS ON OR AFTER THE DATE OF THIS LETTER, AND THE PERMIT IS FOR NONSPORTING FIREARMS, SURPLUS MILITARY FIREARMS, OR NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT FIREARMS, ATF WILL DENY YOUR APPLICATION.
IF YOU HAVE SUBMITTED AN APPLICATION TO IMPORT FRAMES, RECEIVERS AND BARRELS THAT HAS NOT YET BEEN DENIED OR APPROVED BY ATF AND THE PERMIT IS FOR NONSPORTING FIREARMS, SURPLUS MILITARY FIREARMS OR NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT FIREARMS, ATF WILL DENY YOUR APPLICATION.
IF YOU ALREADY HOLD AN APPROVED PERMIT TO IMPORT FRAMES, RECEIVERS AND BARRELS “FOR REPAIR OR REPLACEMENT,” ATF WILL BE SENDING YOU A LETTER EXPLAINING THAT YOUR PERMIT WILL BE SUSPENDED AFTER SEPTEMBER 10, 2005, AND PROVIDING YOU WITH INFORMATION REGARDING YOUR RIGHT TO SUBMIT ARGUMENTS WHY YOUR PERMIT SHOULD NOT BE REVOKED.

I hope they are already in the works.
Thanks
GlenR

Thanks for the update Todd.

If this recent ruling is allowed to remain  "law", U.S. barrel making is going
to have to emerge.

I have faith in the resourcefullness of the american firearms industry.  First it was the development of compliance parts, now it will be the development of barrels.  I don't see this as being a big issue.  Granted, kit build prices are going to increase.  I don't see the MilSurp kit market discounting prices since the barrels are worthless.  

Sad to hear you are having to push back your big move.  Sad to hear that this will be an additional delay in the RF5 project.

I'm sorry guys, but this just equates to another "delay tactic" in my opinion.

Todd, 90+ percent of us already have parts kits, and they have barrels in them.... so no, we don't need to worry about that.

I fail to see your angle on the importation issue. Do you have de-milled MP5 kits coming in that you never told us about ?
Or are you referring to the POF kits that are inbound ?
Please clarify what you mean by that.

Also, you are getting away from the point like you have been doing for so long now.... talking about Urbach barrels Vs. SW barrels. Telling us to wait for you to get parts kits ( which you did not specify what kind ) because US barrels suck unless we get an Urbach made one, WTH ?

We know you have FNC kits coming in, are you referring to them and trying to make us believe they are related to the RF5 project... or do you have MP5 kits / POF kits coming in.... take the mystery out of this would you.

So let me see if I read your post right... you set aside the RF5 for kit importation.. then let's go back a bit where you say that you have known about this for a while.

Ok so my question is... if you have known about the kit problem for a while... then why wait so long. Ok Ok, I already know what you're going to say on that one, something that translates to blah blah blah.. so let's go to the next one...

Ok, next one.... " Guys set this down for a min and concentrate on what needs done now."
Ok, what  I THINK ( my opinion ) that needs to be done now is that you get on here and tell everyone how you have been screwing misleading the GB from the very beginning and apologize to everyone that is out nearly a grand a piece for parts,mags,ammo and accessories !

Can we get that done.That just requires a man and a post, no Form 6's... and no more delay tactics.

Also, was that another direct attack on Todd Bailey... When will people grow up and stop with the fighting... I don't care if the guy deserves it or not. He has effected this GB through ORF for too long... and ORF has played just a big a part as he has. Grow up and stop with the low punches... in you are indeed a better man than he is, which is not currently apparent ( again, my opinion only )

Todd, you have finally posted so many things that show you have mislead us... yet you still will not just come out and say it.

We all understand about life's problems and business delays... but you just wont come out and tell us that this GB was started on the premise that you "could" make receivers, but it turned that you couldn't ( still never told us ) then you continued to tell us just a few more weeks... just a few more months.... ( yet you still never told anyone ). To say that you have misled us would be an understatement at best.

Again, everyone... kits have nothing to do with the RF5 receiver, it is just another means to delay for more time. Because what are you gonna do Todd... all Form 6's that were to be approved are already done and over with... the pending ones that are in transit are well beyond any power that you have over them.. so you expect us to believe that you are stalling the RF5 because you have some kind of magical power that will help get "questionable kits " into this country any faster ???


Ok I am done.... Your move.

*** The above statement is my opinion and does not reflect any outside influence or persuasion; If I am in violation of any COC rules I would request that mods or staff please IM me and I will edit my above post accordingly. I do apologize for any inconvienance to the part of mods & staff. ***

I think that his point is that there is a narrow window of opportunity for ORF to 'horde' all the kits (Hk, AK, whatever) they can get their hands on for future builds.  To free up the funds to buy kits, Todd needs to put everything else on hold for a short time.  That makes good business sense for him, even if it is a minor PITA for us.

I, for one, can deal with that.  I'm not at all happy about it, but I can deal.  The recent BATFE has created a unique circumstance that will have a huge impact on all of us.

I appreciate the fact that Todd is being forthright.  I hope that he will continue update us on a regular basis.

Thankyou and apology accepted.

I run my own business too man and I know it's get really frustrating especially dealing with the public but you need to figure out if competing with Bailey is really worth it. I do think everyone's suffered enough, especially you and it's time to devote your attention elsewhere. You know, gather up all the kits you can and build and sell those. As for the HK receivers, I'd put them on the back burner until there's a working model right in front of me and I'd also have a firm contract with an outside source that can stamp them. Then I'd gladly re-open the group buy plus I'd also offer to build those kits that everyone's holding onto.

BTW, I just had two AK kits arrive tonight, a Tantal and a PMKM kit and I also have an AMD-65 kit sitting here at home. Maybe you ought to consider building customer supplied kits again in the short term just to get some funds rolling in and your reputation back up. A lot of people are buying them up as you already know and will probably want them assembled in the near future, so that's something to really think about.

I don't see why a barrel would be so hard to make.  After all the pakis and turks make them even the iranians make them too?  Why would it be so hard for a barrel manufacture here in the states to make them?

Why not get with one of the overseas manufactures, get the tech package from them since they can't exactly sell them to the US civi market?  It isn't like you would be competing with them.

This post by Todd is the reason I cry "smoke screen".....

Plus the fact that he has stated several times on parts kits that he has " no control " on the time frame of them getting here... you can find those most recent remarks in the FNC section where he has stated that fact.

TGrove Industry Partner Joined :: April 2001 Post Number :: 397 OH, USA  User Info     IM User     Email User   Guys, SDs? Need parts? 16" brls threaded on the rear, SD cages, SD fake cans. Brls GreenMountain can make, they made them for SW. Cages can be made from DOM tube, laser cut, cans no brainer, just hollow alum. Only thing I am not sure in my relm who can make the rubber handguard. Can always just buy that from Gordon. Todd@ORF "If we can measure it, we can mill it" "All good things come to life with ORF" Posted :: 5/10/2005 11:56:02 PM EDT

This post can be found here, last post on the page :
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=121&t=240852&page=12

Ok, so if Green Mountain Barrels can make MP5 & HK94 type barrels... and for less than 200 bucks a piece, then why close down the RF5 and push for parts kits that you have stated a million times " I have no control over when kits will arrive " ???

That makes no sense at all...

If you have no control over kits importation, which you don't... then why wouldn't you continue to fix your receivers ???

Better yet, why wouldn't you just do everyone a long term favor and contact a US barrel maker, like Green mountain... and line up a small run of US made barrels ???

POF barrels are 175.00... I know a US company can make an 8.85 inch barrel for that price with no problem... flutes or no flutes !

But wait, I am getting ahead of myself... what in the hell would we do with a barrel ? Use it as a self defense baton... because we have no receivers  

If you were really looking out for us GB members and your [cough] Future customers [/cough], then you would  line up some US made barrels... that is, unless you have several thousand new HK barrels coming in.

Wait, you never did specify whether or not your "kits" are even related to the RF5 project.... or were you just talking about the FNC and Krink kits  

Am I reaching anyone out there in GB land ?

-bones

Glad I don't have a dog in this fight.  

Thanks for the update but what a crock of shit!!!

I will tell you and the world, this BS is exactly why I gave up on ORF on any level. You come here out of hte "kindness" of you heart, yet couldnt resist a jab at the other toad! Grow up for christs sake!

ORF, can go under for all I care. I have spent nearly 1.5k on parts and such based on the word of company that had a good rep. No more. I am out of this BS race. I am shiftin to the P90 and a wait I am prepaired for, it wasnt promised 6 months ago!!

Good luck to you all!!!
CH

I will go on record as supporting ORF.  Todd Groves works insane hours and takes pride in his work.  I have always found him to be a man of his word, and enjoy the projects he has taken on for me.

You all should drop the personal vendettas and realize that small business owners often times must make business decisions that cannot please everyone. Sometimes they make othger people mad.  Get over it.

Quoted: I will go on record as supporting ORF.  Todd Groves works insane hours and takes pride in his work.  I have always found him to be a man of his word, and enjoy the projects he has taken on for me. You all should drop the personal vendettas and realize that small business owners often times must make business decisions that cannot please everyone. Sometimes they make othger people mad.  Get over it.

Your kidding right?

CH

For the record Jeff, tell  just what part of ORF are you defending?
1. The numerous delays?
2. The numerous ignored requests for updates?
3. The numerous jabs at other companies?
4. The product that still has no estimated delivery date?
5. The lies and deception that is clearly going?
6. The riddle types updates when they do arrive?
7. The usong of this now debunked GB as a means to get at Todd Bailey?


What part is it that you are in support again?
CH

Green Mountain Barrels said : "That's not something we do here. We just make barrels and do not get into doing any custom work." ..

Quoted: Green Mountain Barrels said : "That's not something we do here. We just make barrels and do not get into doing any custom work." ..

I wonder if PacNor here in Oregon would do them?

Quoted: Thanks for the update but what a crock of shit!!! I will tell you and the world, this BS is exactly why I gave up on ORF on any level. You come here out of hte "kindness" of you heart, yet couldnt resist a jab at the other toad! Grow up for christs sake! ORF, can go under for all I care. I have spent nearly 1.5k on parts and such based on the word of company that had a good rep. No more. I am out of this BS race. I am shiftin to the P90 and a wait I am prepaired for, it wasnt promised 6 months ago!! Good luck to you all!!! CH

You do know that the PS90 and F2000 have been pushed to the begining of next year and mid year respectivly.
GlenR

Quoted: Quoted: Thanks for the update but what a crock of shit!!! I will tell you and the world, this BS is exactly why I gave up on ORF on any level. You come here out of hte "kindness" of you heart, yet couldnt resist a jab at the other toad! Grow up for christs sake! ORF, can go under for all I care. I have spent nearly 1.5k on parts and such based on the word of company that had a good rep. No more. I am out of this BS race. I am shiftin to the P90 and a wait I am prepaired for, it wasnt promised 6 months ago!! Good luck to you all!!! CH You do know that the PS90 and F2000 have been pushed to the begining of next year and mid year respectivly. GlenR

Yep. FN is pretty upfront about letting you know about delays. Like this project I have funds tied up in the P90 venture already, but have little concerns as I am certain it will be delievered.
I figure about a year out.

CH

Quoted: Quoted: Green Mountain Barrels said : "That's not something we do here. We just make barrels and do not get into doing any custom work." .. I wonder if PacNor here in Oregon would do them?

From hkweaponsystems.com

"Anyway, Urbach's charge is 250 dollars to flute a chamber in 308.

And destructo is right. My SW-5 does not have a fluted chamber, but it doesn't have any extraction problems. I would imagine an unfluted 308 or 223 chamber would result in cases stuck in the chamber, with the extractor claw tearing off the rim....if not total case head seperation."

"On some after market barrels you'll find the makers have left the flutes out. I've seen this on Urbach HK94/MP5 barrels, I'm not sure about HK91/G3 barrels (anyone know?).

While the flutes on the MP5 barrels aren't required, they do aid in smooth extraction. If you remove the extractor from a MP5 bolt, the gun will jam almost all the time. If you doubt this, buy an original SW5. They had extractors but the extractor springs were a little weak. The guns would jam every 3-5 rounds."

"Urbach only does fluting in .223 or .308 caliber. ..."

I'm gonna try and find someone that will turn a blank to mp5 profile.. and not worry about fluting the chamber

C'mon Bones and Cape, give it a damn rest.  We have pretty much figured out where you stand in all this.  You aren't contributing anything constructive to this (or frankly the last half of the other) thread.

Woody

Thanks for the post Todd.  I understand your position on the need to make money.  I will openly admit that I don't know your product line all that well, nor what you have brought to the firearms development table.  

It isn't my business, I don't run it, you have to make the hard decisions not me.  I bitch about how my job sucks sometimes, bring me into perspective...

This is a quote from Cape_Hunters first post on this GB. Notice the date.

"I have skimmed thru this and did not see that it was closed? Is this buy still open and can I follow the link on page one ot get in on the preorder?

Thanks all.
CH

I cant believe I miss these group buy threads all the time, dammit!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."
-- Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)

Posted :: 5/13/2005 1:24:15 AM EDT"

You have been waiting a total of 2 months and 2 weeks for something you were never a part of. It's time for you to STFU.

GlenR

Who here would pay to see a live WEBCAST of Bailey and Grove slugging it out in a boxing match ?

CH...

From personal experience, I can say that Todd has gone above and beyond on the projects he has performed for me. I don't post around here very often, so I really don't know all the crap that has occurred in the past.  My statements are factual and true.

I still stand firm and will go on record as a firm supporter of ORF and what Todd is doing.  He has ALWAYS backed his words with action from my perspective.

Also from my perspective, several people who are bitching about this GB and bashing ORF are doing so out of spite.

Which is worse...  Trying to produce a HK94 clone and experiencing delays, or incessantly and vindictively criticizing those who are trying to provide a very valuable service and product, but may not necessarily communicate effectively?

Not trying to flame you or anyone else, I feel compelled to stand by and defend Todd an ORF.

Quoted: This is a quote from Cape_Hunters first post on this GB. Notice the date. "I have skimmed thru this and did not see that it was closed? Is this buy still open and can I follow the link on page one ot get in on the preorder? Thanks all. CH I cant believe I miss these group buy threads all the time, dammit! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way." -- Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862) Posted :: 5/13/2005 1:24:15 AM EDT" You have been waiting a total of 2 months and 2 weeks for something you were never a part of. It's time for you to STFU. GlenR

And that means exactly what? That changes anything that has gone on? No it doesnt. Not a god dammed thing!

I wont STFU as ORF has still not deleivered anything but delays after delays. Also, dont act like I am the only one that has a problem with this situation, as I am clearly not.

You yourself made a few comments to the same token as meonly to edit them out like in fear you wouldnt get your free reciever. Weak.
CH

Quoted: CH... From personal experience, I can say that Todd has gone above and beyond on the projects he has performed for me. I don't post around here very often, so I really don't know all the crap that has occurred in the past.  My statements are factual and true. I still stand firm and will go on record as a firm supporter of ORF and what Todd is doing.  He has ALWAYS backed his words with action from my perspective. Also from my perspective, several people who are bitching about this GB and bashing ORF are doing so out of spite. Which is worse...  Trying to produce a HK94 clone and experiencing delays, or incessantly and vindictively criticizing those who are trying to provide a very valuable service and product, but may not necessarily communicate effectively? Not trying to flame you or anyone else, I feel compelled to stand by and defend Todd an ORF.

Thanks for hte level headed response. OK, on that note, sounds right. If he has always given you good product so be it. This former GB was not handled that way and a little reading back will prove that.

I agree that there are some that are at arms to spite, but you know, I am not one of them. I dont know Todd Bailey on any level and dont care to. His rep speaks very clear and I avoid him like the plague. But ORF has always had a great rep and until this I thought was solid. But this BS "I will own you" BS between them has tarnished ORFs once clean reputation. There are many that feel this way and a few that speak out about it. The rest are afraid of losing the Freebee

CH

Todd,
Thanks for the reply,
As said before by many here, a simple update here and then would have solved all this.
CH

Quoted: Quoted: For the record Jeff, tell  just what part of ORF are you defending?  I would say ORF in general 1. The numerous delays?  Its 9 months behind del? 2. The numerous ignored requests for updates?  Name a mfg that updates quicker than me?Your kidding right? This whole thing is due to lack of your updates? 3. The numerous jabs at other companies?  Ok, Shrike, MM, SW?  SW granted I jab with respect to the BS he posts and you guys fucking buy into.  MM, his project is way behind mine, Shrike mine times 10why not just ignore it. IMHO TB has dug his own grave, and soon will be standing in it...on his own. No need play with him any more 4. The product that still has no estimated delivery date?  Anyone can estimate and be wrong, I have addressed thatok 5. The lies and deception that is clearly going?  CH, come spend a day in my world at the moment.  I am not getting much done that pleases people.  Do you think for a second I do not know this?  Hmm...  I have been here.  I have read Sturm and various other boards.Todd, I know your busy, but please dont act like your the only one in the world that has a busy schedule. There are lots of us out there. I will retract and apologize for using the term lies, but still think deception fits...which you kinda address abaove. 6. The riddle types updates when they do arrive?  Riddle?  I cannot rhyme with a damn.You know what I am refferring to .."August will be fun"... "Somthing big is coming" yada yada.. 7. The using of this now debunked GB as a means to get at Todd Bailey?  How so? How about at every turn throwing in 3rd grade jab at TB? WHO GIVES  A FUCK WHAT HE DOES!!! IF your product is that much better, let it and your customer service do your talking. When I get MY recs done, GB guys get theres free, nuff said.  Hows that get at TB?  Cause I am the only mfg in the industry that has EVER said something like that?Yes you are. But you are also the only mfg in history to use that as a way to buy more time  Wait till the GB guys get them when I am done.  Wait and see my stance when this is up and running smoothly.  Will I be a DICK, nope.  I will just reflect back on this and wander.  No you wont be a dick, and I bet you will get back to the level of customer service you once had. But others will reflect back too and wonder why it went the way it did. You know, even with TBs reputation people buy his products. Is that what you are expecting or banking on? To be able to let your companies good name slip a little knowing that you will be the only real game in town and people will have no choice but to buy from you? Todd@ORF What part is it that you are in support again? CH

Quoted: Quoted: CH... From personal experience, I can say that Todd has gone above and beyond on the projects he has performed for me. I don't post around here very often, so I really don't know all the crap that has occurred in the past.  My statements are factual and true. I still stand firm and will go on record as a firm supporter of ORF and what Todd is doing.  He has ALWAYS backed his words with action from my perspective. Also from my perspective, several people who are bitching about this GB and bashing ORF are doing so out of spite. Which is worse...  Trying to produce a HK94 clone and experiencing delays, or incessantly and vindictively criticizing those who are trying to provide a very valuable service and product, but may not necessarily communicate effectively? Not trying to flame you or anyone else, I feel compelled to stand by and defend Todd an ORF. Thanks for hte level headed response. OK, on that note, sounds right. If he has always given you good product so be it. This former GB was not handled that way and a little reading back will prove that. I agree that there are some that are at arms to spite, but you know, I am not one of them. I dont know Todd Bailey on any level and dont care to. His rep speaks very clear and I avoid him like the plague. But ORF has always had a great rep and until this I thought was solid. But this BS "I will own you" BS between them has tarnished ORFs once clean reputation. There are many that feel this way and a few that speak out about it. The rest are afraid of losing the Freebee CH

Agreed.

RANT ON  This is my first post after the group buy ended.  I am getting sick and tired of reading through all of this bitching.  I get a real kick out of how some of you guys piss, whine, and moan about such trivial things as this.  I can only imagine what you would be like if something major happened.  None of you NEED this receiver, it is just a want.  I have over 2G tied up in this; so what.  Is the world going to end if I don't get my receivers soon?  I don't think so.  I am in no hurry and will wait as long as it takes.  My order was one of the first five, so I have been in it since the very start.  I have plenty of other things to shoot.  If having money tied up in parts and such is too much for you, I suggest you find a cheaper hobby.  Todd, keep up the good work and don't let a few babies get you down.  RANT OFF

.

It's just not worth it anymore....It really isn't.

I'll take your spot then

I meant the arguing  

I wont give up my spot no matter what... everyone knows my reasoning  

Just wondering a couple of things.  What stage is the current receiver development at, is it good to go and you are just waiting to make the production run after doing what you need to do to prep before ATF regs take effect?

Do you know when we will be able to check out that review you mentioned would be happening; sounded like that was happening with some receivers you already made so will that happen soon?

Is there any chance that this will not pan out if you can't get an adequate amount of barrels and kit parts in?  My guess is if you don't get enough kits the economics of this will be much more difficult and there would be less demand since people will have a much more difficult time acquiring a kit.  Just trying to figure out if we should acquire one of those other receivers while they are still selling them since they seem to want to make it as hard as possible for anyone else to enter the market (no barrels soon, no receivers soon....) (would definitly prefer your stamped receiver)


Thanks I don't mean to be negative or a troll or anything just want to get the best picture since alternatives may be harder to obtain soon and I already have about 550 into this and do have the intentions of having it built eventually.

You are not being negative, nor a troll xile. You are just asking the same questions that all of us have been asking for over 6 months now.

As a matter of fact, if you manage to squeeze those answers out of ORF, I'll give you 10 bucks.

Luckily I can rest assured because you'll never get that 10 bucks because ORF will never answer those questions.

kudos bradb,
a well reasoned POV:

"This is my first post after the group buy ended. I am getting sick and tired of reading through all of this bitching. I get a real kick out of how some of you guys piss, whine, and moan about such trivial things as this. I can only imagine what you would be like if something major happened. None of you NEED this receiver, it is just a want. I have over 2G tied up in this; so what. Is the world going to end if I don't get my receivers soon? I don't think so. I am in no hurry and will wait as long as it takes. My order was one of the first five, so I have been in it since the very start. I have plenty of other things to shoot. If having money tied up in parts and such is too much for you, I suggest you find a cheaper hobby. Todd, keep up the good work and don't let a few babies get you down."

seems some are treating orf's rf5 receiver offering as some kinda written in stone "right" or "entitlement," and so feel that its their perogative to stomp on todd for the delays.  orf didn't have to offer the receiver and still doesn't have too......they took no money, and no-one here are investors in tooling up for production.....so no-one has a legal rt to claim that they are "owed" a receiver.   todd can "bone" out (pun intended) on the rf5 project, and no-one would have a cause of action in the matter.
some claim that they detrimentally relied on the offering and put x dollars in parts and accessories, and that gives em rt or entitlement.....sorry, no go on that too....in this liquid market for hk kits (esp after the barrel ban), you'll get more $$ for those kits on the market than you spent so far....so in the end, all you have left is that that empty feeling (or empty spot in the safe) b/c you couldn't get that toy you wanted....and all that gives you is a reason to cry like a baby (which some have exercised), but certainly not a legal right to a rf5 receiver.  

so its like this: if you don't like how the orf offering is going, then quietly go somewhere else...you got lots of options:  get a hk94, or sp89, or any of the bobcat offerings, or buy a cast receiver from top notch.   the waste of bandwith b/c of the whiney posts is tiresome for those who are able to patiently wait for the receiver to come out (and who aren't gonna die if it never somes out).  as bradb eloquently puts it, "I (we) all have someting else to shoot."

Quoted: kudos bradb, Please dont encourage him! seems some are treating orf's rf5 receiver offering as some kinda written in stone "right" or "entitlement," and so feel that its their perogative to stomp on todd for the delays.Considering it started out as a Group BUY and ORF took CC numbers and FFL, I think there is plenty reason to have concerns orf didn't have to offer the receiver and still doesn't have too......they took no money,They kept no money is the right term as they intially took funds and CC numbers and no-one here are investors in tooling up for production.....so no-one has a legal rt to claim that they are "owed" a receiver.Only because ORF decided to give these away, thus relieving itslef of any owed products to anyone. Again, it didnt start that way only got this way because ORF could not keep its word  todd can "bone" out (pun intended) on the rf5 project, and no-one would have a cause of action in the matter. YOu are right about that. Nobody would have anything to say or a leg to stand on. You know why? Because by saying "free" it no longer has an obligation to fulfill the intial group buy. And as you stated you could do nothing some claim that they detrimentally relied on the offering and put x dollars in parts and accessories, and that gives em rt or entitlement.....sorry, no go on that too....in this liquid market for hk kits (esp after the barrel ban), you'll get more $$ for those kitsTHE ONLY REASON IS BECAUSE OF THE CURRENT ATF STANCE ON KITS(dated I think the 6/13/05). DONT MAKE IT SOUND LIKE ORF DID US A FAVOR! Doesnt take a brainiac to see that on the market than you spent so far....so in the end, all you have left is that that empty feeling (or empty spot in the safe) b/c you couldn't get that toy you wanted....and all that gives you is a reason to cry like a baby (which some have exercised), but certainly not a legal right to a rf5 receiver. This has never been about a legal right to anythign. Not sure were you came up with that? Its about pointing out just how led along you and hte rest of hte sheeple have been. so its like this: if you don't like how the orf offering is going, then quietly go somewhere else. Goes both ways, sit back keep quiet and let everyone else debate about it!.. you got lots of options:  get a hk94, or sp89, or any of the bobcat offerings, or buy a cast receiver from top notch.   the waste of bandwith b/c of the whiney posts is tiresome for those who are able to patiently wait for the receiver to come out What is a waste of bandwidth is the people who chime in like good little sheep, following the flock to get the free goods. People that chime in and act like the whole thing is just peachy. Weak. (and who aren't gonna die if it never somes out).  as bradb eloquently puts it, "I (we) all have someting else to shoot."

cape,
in what way did the gb members elect you to champion their rights?

posted by cape:
"Its about pointing out just how led along you and hte rest of hte sheeple have been."

ill take offense at being labeled a "sheeple," and i hope that a repeated reference to those gb members who are patiently waiting as "sheeple" doesn't cross over into a coc violation.....

Quoted: cape, in what way did the gb members elect you to champion their rights? posted by cape: "Its about pointing out just how led along you and hte rest of hte sheeple have been." ill take offense at being labeled a "sheeple," and i hope that a repeated reference to those gb members who are patiently waiting as "sheeple" doesn't cross over into a coc violation.....

Self apointed. So like ORF, I can change the rules whenever I want and you have no say in it.
Sorry your offended so easy. That must suck.

Mods if I am out of line, let me know and I will back out of this.

Quoted: It's just not worth it anymore....It really isn't.

I think you are right. I feel like I am debating with the left regarding the last election again. You can point out facts all day, but it just doenst sink in. Hook, line and sinker.

Quoted: Quoted: It's just not worth it anymore....It really isn't. I think you are right. I feel like I am debating with the left regarding the last election again. You can point out facts all day, but it just doenst sink in. Hook, line and sinker.

Yep... just doesn't matter anymore. Apathy is a dish best served by ... hmmm, well, you know who.

When Aimless is done looking into this matter.... if he still is, or ever was... I just hope to be able to stay on board here at arfcom. I'm not backing down because of fear of Mods/Staff, because they are here to help us and keep order, I am just done with asking questions that seem to be typed in invisible ink. So I basically give up on ever getting any straight answers out of ORF regarding the GB.

JHIF.

And as far as ORF goes.... you get what you give. If they go down or do not fulfill their promises, then it will be at their own hand. Not by anything that ANYONE on this board has said against them. I can assure you of that.

Best of luck to everyone that doesn't like the whining and bitching because this is arfcom... it is expected here. Besides, this thread was started as a VENT. You don't have to come here and read anything.... you can just subscribe and wait for the "TGrove" posts... leave the other people alone. If they want to gripe, let them. This is a semi-free board.  




ETA :  Has anyone seen Aimless lately ???  My e-mails and IMs have went unanswered.... just wondering if he is on vacation or something. Not concerned... just curious. Aimless... if you're out there, let me know that you're still alive.

God, please, if you can't give us world peace, at least grant me a damn IGNORE button.....

Woody

Quoted: God, please, if you can't give us world peace, at least grant me a damn IGNORE button..... Woody

Woody!

BTW, its right next to the DONT READ button

Quoted: Quoted: God, please, if you can't give us world peace, at least grant me a damn IGNORE button..... Woody Woody! BTW, its right next to the DONT READ button

Piss off, Skippy.  This thread was started by ORF, NOT by you two (yep, lumping you and bones together for this one).  I'd like to see it show up in My Active Topics when Todd posts something (yes, feel free to insert the "how long will that take" smartass comments here).  I don't need to see it rise to the top when either of you want to bitch, moan, gripe, whine, etc., etc., etc.  EVERYONE here seems to know how you feel.  If'n you think that you are swaying people one way or the other, I think you are deluded.  Either the people in this are in it to stay, or will bug out.  It's as simple as that.  Either way, you have become redundant.  You now officially bore me.  You are dismissed.

Woody

Thanks for the input Woody.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: God, please, if you can't give us world peace, at least grant me a damn IGNORE button..... Woody Woody! BTW, its right next to the DONT READ button Piss off, Skippy.  This thread was started by ORF, NOT by you two (yep, lumping you and bones together for this one).  I'd like to see it show up in My Active Topics when Todd posts something (yes, feel free to insert the "how long will that take" smartass comments here).  I don't need to see it rise to the top when either of you want to bitch, moan, gripe, whine, etc., etc., etc.  EVERYONE here seems to know how you feel.  If'n you think that you are swaying people one way or the other, I think you are deluded.  Either the people in this are in it to stay, or will bug out.  It's as simple as that.  Either way, you have become redundant.  You now officially bore me.  You are dismissed. Woody

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Then I will make sure not to bump this one up again.... Oh sorry bout that

Yep, it was started by ORF as a rant, and a place to do just that...

MODS DO NOT LOCK THIS ONE PLEASE, if you guys need to go on, go on here, hopefully my request will be granted....

I suggest reading the first post in a thread before jumping in an sticking your foot in your mouth. Had you done that you wouldnt have posted here because, well you dont have a rant now do you!

If you dont like it, dont read it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: God, please, if you can't give us world peace, at least grant me a damn IGNORE button..... Woody Woody! BTW, its right next to the DONT READ button Piss off, Skippy.  This thread was started by ORF, NOT by you two (yep, lumping you and bones together for this one).  I'd like to see it show up in My Active Topics when Todd posts something (yes, feel free to insert the "how long will that take" smartass comments here).  I don't need to see it rise to the top when either of you want to bitch, moan, gripe, whine, etc., etc., etc.  EVERYONE here seems to know how you feel.  If'n you think that you are swaying people one way or the other, I think you are deluded.  Either the people in this are in it to stay, or will bug out.  It's as simple as that.  Either way, you have become redundant.  You now officially bore me.   You are dismissed. Woody

+1

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: God, please, if you can't give us world peace, at least grant me a damn IGNORE button..... Woody Woody! BTW, its right next to the DONT READ button Piss off, Skippy.  This thread was started by ORF, NOT by you two (yep, lumping you and bones together for this one).  I'd like to see it show up in My Active Topics when Todd posts something (yes, feel free to insert the "how long will that take" smartass comments here).  I don't need to see it rise to the top when either of you want to bitch, moan, gripe, whine, etc., etc., etc.  EVERYONE here seems to know how you feel.  If'n you think that you are swaying people one way or the other, I think you are deluded.  Either the people in this are in it to stay, or will bug out.  It's as simple as that.  Either way, you have become redundant.  You now officially bore me.   You are dismissed. Woody +1

+2
Like that is a bad thing

Missed the DO NOT READ button too huh?

A few straight forward statements of the current reality would solve both sides problems. It couldn't be any more simple.

Bomber