I'm almost 100% committed to the Lincon however there's still time to back out so...

I can get both of them for about the same price so it's really just a matter of which features/benefits I'm willing to trade off.

The Amsec will be the same size safe, no frills, no fancy interior, no lights.  Just a plain jane nice quality RSC

The Liberty Lincoln will also be the same size, with a fancier interior with halogen lights and a really nice door handgun organizer system that adds a great amount of storage.  All told, the lights and the extra storage are valued at least $300+ in options.

The Amsec will have a heavier & thicker steel body and possibly tighter edges along openings and closings, but realistically, while the Amsec is heavier with thicker steel, it does not have any siginficantly greater burglary or fire advantages over the Liberty.

The Amsec alone would be a better RSC, but the added features of the Liberty make up for the slightly inferior build quality.

I really don't know and I'd like to get peoples opinions.

So, assuming the same price and same size, which would you pick (remember, the Liberty has a lot more bells and whistles and NEITHER of them are TL rated)

The Amsec also has  a door that can't be pried(it's a solid 1/2" plate), while Liberty is the brand used in the Rogue Safe Co. Youtube video.  The Liberty offers very little in security compared to the Amsec and while both could be cut with power tools, at least the Amsec would take longer and make more of a mess(harder to see and breathe) with it's drylight insulation(kind of concrete but not really).  The Amsec also offers you at least one side that would be pretty hard to get through(the door), if you boxed the rest of the safe in a closet or enclosure in your house, and bolted the safe down, then a theif would have a much tougher time getting in.  As for fire protection, the Liberty uses sheetrock, the Amsec uses a kind of concrete, real safe's use concrete for fire protection, so I'll go for the Amsec in this regard as well.

Basically it boils down to you pay for what you get.  You spelled it out when you said that for the same money you get a nicer interior and lights, etc. with the Liberty, you're paying for the bells and whistles with security, which is what a "gunsafe" is really for.  If you just want a cool way to display your guns, then get a nice display case, but for a reasonable amount of security for your firearms, go with the Amsec.

Ok, first of all, the imfamous youtube video is with a Liberty Centurion, the bottom of the line for Liberty Safes.  While the Lincoln series is about 3 'grade' levels higher.  That would be like comparing the Liberty Presidential series to the Amsec TF series.  Completely apples to oranges.

Now, I'm not going to argue your other points, but rather play devil's advocate if I may.

Both are fire rated for 90 minutes.  I don't think anyone's ever proven that Amsec's 90 minutes protection is any better than Liberty's 90 minutes.  So as for fire rating, they're equivalent as far as I'm concerned.  Nobody's ever proven that Amsecs materials are superior either.

As for the thickness of the the door, I have yet to see any proof that Amsec's 1/2" stee plate is 'pry proof' (as you implied), nor that it's any stronger or pry resistance than the Lincoln's 1" composite 'Tough Door' technology sandwhiched between to sheets of 11ga steel with ball bearing hard plate behind it.  (Again, I'm just throwing this stuff out for the sake of argument)

The Liberty also has 14 x 1.25" bolts vs 10 x 1.5" which has a negligable favor for Amsec (assuming that the Amsec bolts are at least as long as the Liberty bolts) however Liberty's bolts cover all 4 sides whereas Amsec's are only on 2 sides.  Therefore, you'd have to defeat the bolts on 3 sides of the liberty to achieve the safe vulnerability as defeating only 1 side of the Amsec.

The Amsec is about 100lbs heavier so it edges ahead of the Liberty in terms of weight.

The Amsec also  has exterior hinges which gives the door greater range of motion, however this feature while 'nice to have', is not a 'need to have' for me.  Some people actually prefer the lack of external hinges from an aesthetic view.

So in terms of 'burglary' prevention or theft, I have yet to find any proof that the Amsec BF is superior to the Liberty Lincoln OTHER THAN WEIGHT ALONE.

In terms of functionality, the only benefit I see of the Amsec is the wider range of motion for the door, however, at the same price point, the Liberty seems to give you a nicer interior in terms of lighting and superior storage solutions.

Again, keep in mind I'm comparing 2 specific models - the Amsec BF6030 to the Liberty Lincoln LX25.  And while it may sound like I'm just trying to talk myself into the Liberty, what I'm really doing is just trying to make sure that I'm comfortable with whatever choice I end up with.  Let's not forget that neither of these are TL rated so in terms of 'breaking in', UL didn't find that either of these offered protection worthy of anything greater than RSC classification.

"45" is right on the money.

The BF is a better safe from a security standpoint, the thick door does make it more pry resistant (if not pry proof).

Imagine for a minute that all safes are put on something like a number line.
At the 5 mark, is the UL listing of RSC (TL-5), at the 15 is the TL-15 mark and 30 has the TL-30 mark.

All RSC's fall above the 5 mark on the line, but some fall closer to the 15 mark than others and still don't make the 15 mark.

In my opinion, the Amsec is definitelly higher on the line than the Liberty, but neither make the 15 rating. (obviously)

I'd give the Liberty about a 6ish and the Amsec about a 9ish.

Whether the difference is worth the interior accessories is something you need to determine.  I value the security more, but everyone must evaluate their own situation.

(Of course, I opted for a used TL-30 with NO interior... I'm making my own custom interior (plywood and carpet) with lighting.)

I got the 6636 from AMSEC.  It is a well built safe.  For me was between a Cannon Safe and the AMSEC.  I went with the AMSEC for the External Hindges and it was built a lot better.  I got the electronic lock and it dosent feel cheap like the others I have messed with.  

It all depends on what you want if you want all the fancy stuff then go for it.  Personaly I would go with a safe that is built well that I dont have to worry about.  unless the Safes is really deep you shouldnt have a problem with light.

MAHA

Thanks Maha.  I've taken your input from both threads into consideration and it's a tough decision, main reason being (and I have yet to mention) that I will be sharing this safe with my wife - sort of.  She will get at most the entire top shelf, which leaves me with everything else.  With the Lincoln, the door pistol & document organizer system is a $200 add on feature that practically negates most of the need for the top shelf, so it's a win/win for me and the wife.  Essentially, I'll be able to fit all my firearms related stuff in the rest of the safe no problem, and still have room for a few odds and ends like my DSLR camera, some watches, and misc gold jewelry.  This safe will have to sever a few purposes, and unfortunately, this size (25LX or BF6030) are the largest I can currently acommodate.  So now that the cat's out of the bag about having to share with my wife, one might see how certain aesthetic & style features of the Lincoln edge ahead of the Amsec.  Again, I've not made my final decision yet, but these are things I must consider.

I got the Amsec Bf 6930. I bought it because, after 2 months of comparing all features and benefits of various safes, flet that it offered better fire protection and the 1/2" thick steel door would be superior to the other brands I was considering. I felt that "drywall" just wasn't good enough after seeing a Browning that had been through a fire.   Any safe you get will only slow down a burglar, fire is more damaging.

Does anybody know what gauge steel the Amsec BF series uses for the body of the safe?  I realize the door is 1/2" steel plate, but I cant seem to find any reference as to the thickness of the steel used in the body, other than saying the walls are 2" thick (which refers to the thickness of the insulation combined with the steel).

Thanks.

Pretty sure it is a 12 ga.  I had called a while back.

OK, I just found out.  For the Amsec, it's 11 gauge outer wall, 2 inches of fire insulation, 16 gauge inner wall.

Now I'm looking at the Liberty Lincoln litterature and it describes the body as having 11 gague "2 piece" consturction with 3-4 layers of 5/8" fire insulation (depending on whether it's the sides or ceiling).  So what exactly does that mean?  Does that mean that there's 2 pieces of 11 gauge with the insulation layers in the middle, or does that mean that there's 2 pieces steel that total 11 guage on the outer wall, followed by insulation, or does that mean that the 2 steel walls surrounding the fire insulation have a total thickness of 11 gauge?  I find the wording of their description to be a little ambiguous.

I wouldn't be too worried about the difference there.

Until you get to the 1/4" range of thickness, you are literally just talking about a few more whacks with a fire ax.

At that point, only a quick response by the homeowner or police is going to matter.  Having an alarm is a MUCH more important factor than the secondary sheet metal being 16ga or 11ga.
16 = .0598
11 =  .1196

.06" of steel isn't much to base the decision on.  It's a non-factor.

Just got off the phone with Liberty to ask them about their "2 piece" construction on the Liberty Lincoln and here's what I got:

The safe's top, bottom, left and right sides are made from one piece of 11 gauge steel.  The rear is made of a 2nd piece of 11 guage steel.  So there are you 2 "pieces" of 11 guage steel.  Following the steel are the multiple layers of fire insulation.  There is NO steel layer inside the safe - just the single layer of steel on the outside.  I find this very interesting as I've always assumed that there was a layer of steel on both sides of the fire insulation.  This again is different from the Amsec BF line which uses 11 guage steel on the outside, 16 guage on the inside, and a 2" layer of insulation between the steel panels.  So the body composition of the Amsec (in terms of total steel gauge of the walls of the safe) edges out the Liberty Lincoln by one extra layer of 16 gauge steel.

It's not just that though, it's also the fact that the fire lining in the Amsec box is a concrete like material that's poured/injected between the inner and outer sheetmetal. This type of construction is typical of real burglary rated safes and offers much more inherent stability and protection against the fabled "axe" attack since the sheetmetal is backed by a solid surface and not standing alone.

Actually Sturdy, which uses 7 or 8ga depending on the customer's preference, will not yield to a fire axe, however, the reality is that someone who's going to break in with a fire axe will most likely know that an angle grinder is quicker and will require less effort.

Not to mention they'll look less like a serial killer when wandering the neighborhood

Well, at this point nearly 90% favor the Amsec to the Liberty, although I question the validity of the reasons to some degree without sceinetific proof.  It's really a guessing game unless an actual side by side test is done..

I may very well be going with an Amsec although either one will serve my needs fine.

Thanks for all your input and keep it comig if you think of anything else.

Just thought I'd throw this out there since it seems relevant.
This is a picture of a safe after an attack on its side by a fire ax.

Ouch!  Can anyone make out which model that is? (it says it on the bottom but I can't read it)

Nonetheless, we've already established that both the Liberty Lincoln Series (or even Franklin) and the Amsec BF use the SAME steel thickness on the outside of their safes.  Therefore, if the safe pictured here was a Lincoln series, you could assume an Amsec would look the same after a similar attack.  They all use 11 gauge steel.

True enough... just wanted to put a picture to the discussion.
Alot of people don't realize that all the door bolts in the world won't protect you if your sides are attacked.

Except that AMSEC uses 2" of drylight fire protection (poured concrete mixture) and not dry wall. The amsec would hold up MUCH better than the Liberty.

To the OP. Get the AMSEC BF. It wins over any model liberty.

You can't assume anything as the BF series is constructed completely differently. The outside steel is backed by a poured composite mixture and then a second inner layer of steel.  It's a whole lot different than a single piece of sheet metal backed by nothing as Liberty does.

Ok, here's a NEW update:

I've now been informed that the Amsec BF series is 10 guage on the outside, instead of 11 guage which is what I was led to believe by THIS video.  So either the guy in the video is wrong or the lady in tech support at Amsec that I just spoke with is wrong.  Or, the video is describing a previous year's model which they've possibly since upgraded from 11 to 10 guage.  Nonetheless, I've been unable to find anything in 'print' that specifically answers this question.  Still, the interior walls are 16 guage steel and therefore, whether the exterior is 11 or 10, the Amsec edges out the Liberty.

Before I go any further, I realize that there is a perception that the poured 'Drylight' material in the Amsec BF safes is like conrete.  It's not.  It's simply Amsec's patented version of fire insulation.  The only thing that makes it similar to concrete is that it is 'poured'.  This is how the tech support person at Amsec just explained it to me over the phone.  Liberty has their patented version as well which is measured by the number of layers they use - The higher end Liberty safes haver more layers than the lower end ones.  All this stuff does is insulate from fire and offers very little protection from burglary.  Regardless, both the Liberty Lincoln and the Amsec BF have similar fire ratings and therefore, the argument over the materials used would be like arguing over 'plastic' guns vs. 'steel' guns (ie. Glock vs 1911 )

That being said, this thread has been very helpful to me in deciding which safe to go with.  I just placed an order for the Amsec BF6030, and even though it cost me $100 more, I feel very confident after all my research that I've made a good choice and I know I'll have no regrets.

Now here's a question I'm hoping someone can help me with:  Where can I find a electrical power strip that has a detachable plug so that I can feed the cord through the little hole on the back of the Amsec?

Go to lowes...

Buy a lamp replacement cord (it comes bulk and they cut it for you) and a replacement plug.  Make your own.  
Check the current requirements of your devices and make sure you don't go over the rating of the wire gauge you are using.

Good choice, as I said earlier in this thread, at least with the Amsec BF series, you get a real safe door.  This will enable you to frame in the sides and top, after bolting it down of course, or back it into a closet with very little clearance on the sides and top.  This would make an attack on the weaker sides(comparred to the door) harder, requiring the would be theives to knock down or cut holes in walls/studs in order to get at the sides to cut them.  A good trick to add to the securtiy of your safe, is to buy another one, a cheap Lowes or Home Depot Sentry plastic one, and put that in your bedroom closet with a couple old watches, a couple hundred cash, and some BS paperwork.  The master bedroom closet is the first place that theives go, and most of the time if they find a safe like that, they'll think they hit the jackpot, and take it and run to another location to open it.  Hide your Amsec as best as you can, make sure that you have a monitored alarm system, and lock up any prybars, sawzall's, angle grinders, etc. that you may have around the house.

Thanks!  I kinda always knew that Amsec would be the better choice.  I just wanted to see if there was any way I could convince myself otherwise.  I actually had already purchased the Liberty but postponed the delivery at the last moment while I did a little more research (mostly here).

Unfortunately, the Amsec will not be hidden well (too big) which is why it will be bolted down and back and only have one other side exposed (corner of room).  I'm still deciding how it will be 'monitored' from an electronic security standpoint.  I have an older small Sentry safe which will remain in the master bedroom closet.  Unfortunately, I don't even own any prybars, sawzall's, or angle grinders for me to use, so I have no worries about hiding such tools from thieves.

I live in a luxury highrise and even hammering a few nails into a wall to hang pictures between the hours of 5:00pm and 8:00am would have our condo commando security squad knocking on my door, flashlight and clipboard drawn at the ready.  These guys mean seriuos biznis!    But all other hours of the day, our building's access is tighly restricted with many security measures taken to know who is in the building and where they are at all times.  There are cameras in ALL common areas monitored 24/7, and nobody gets in without a special key card, or a direct call from a resident to the secuirty desk.  It's pretty tight here.  So my choice in safe may be a little overkill for where I live now but I don't plant to stay for long,.  It's just to get me by and so that I'll be ready when I move to a new home with my wife.

My small projects are now going to be hooking up sensors and switches and cameras and dialers to my safe.

Wow, you left out the condo part.  There's no replacement for live security monitoring and patrolling your structure.  With cameras, access cards, and such, plus your AMSEC, I think you're more than covered.  Much better than a TL 15 in an un monitored house.  There was a discussion about what the rating system that the .gov uses for containers to secure top secret and above documents.  The highest level of protection paled in comparisson to what most real jewelry stores use, however, it was pointed out that those containers are housed in monitored, restricted access buildings with live, armed, and trained security personnal.  Congratulations and good luck.

I don't know much about Safe but I'm looking to get one in this range. This thread is very helpful.
I do have a question though.
I notice that the AMSEC has the hinge on the outside, and the liberty doesn't. Would that make a different?

It's a big difference to some people more than others.

The external hinges on the Amsec allow the door to open a full 180 degrees whereas the internal hinges of the Liberty allow it to only open about 90 degress.  The advantage of being able to open all the way means you'll have easier access to the contents on the side of the safe with the hinges because the opening will not be obstructed by the door/hinges.  As far as I can tell, there are no advantages of internal hinges.

^^^
Thanks for quick reply. How about security? Would it make it easier for the thieves with the hinge?

Short answer is "no".

Let me just cut and paste an explanation provided on another website:

"Contrary to some marketing claims, internal hinges do not necessarily make the safe more "secure". Concealed internal hinges give a safe a sleeker, more modern appearance. But if a safe door has adequate locking bolts, the door will stay in place even if the hinges are cut completely off. And with either internal or external hinge design, it is the locking mechanism that is the real security concern."

"external hinges are a standard feature on commercial safes because the average burglar will waste time trying to cut or pry them. In any quality safe the hinges simply swing the door and shouldn't be part of the security of the safe. Internal hinges usually cause the burglar to immediately attack the lock and other vital areas on the safe"

So.. (i'm not sure if this redundant) but sounds like the number of bolt/ number of side that has the bolt seems to matter more (security wise). If lincoln has 4 side bolt compare to amsec 2 side, wouldn't it make liberty more theft resistant?

Yes and no.  The bolts on the AmsecBF are 1.5" vs 1.25" for the Liberty Lincoln.  Therefore, while there are more bolts with the Lincoln, the total area of coverage if you add up all the bolt is slightly better for the Amsec.  So the bolts on the Lincoln are more easily defeated than the bolts on the Amsec, but there are more of them on the Lincoln.  Also, before you can even get to the bolts, you'll have a much harder time with the Amsec than with the Lincoln since the steel is significantly thicker on the Amsec than the Liberty.  I'm no expert, but I'd say it's pretty close to a wash when it comes to theft resistance with the Amsec BF & Liberty Lincoln with a slight advantage going to the Amsec simply due to overall steel thickness.  Quite honestly, I would sleep just as well with either one.

If you look at the video on Liberty's website showing their "engineers" breaking into one of their lower end safes, the door clearly bends and flexes, had those "engineers" used wedges to hold as they pried, they would have gotten in with just those prybars in about the same time as their competitions.  With an AMSEC BF series, you will not be able to bend and flex the door, no way, no how, without hydraulic spreaders, etc.  As far as door security goes, the AMSEC will win every time.

Another thing to consider is that external hinges allow the door to be removed on the BF6030 which was a HUGE help (~276lbs worth) when I went to move mine into the basement.  Plus the word flex and 1/2" solid plate door don't go together so the AmSec door flexing just isn't gunna happen imho.

I agree with you 100% on the Amsec being more 'secure' (which is why I ended up with the Amsec over of the Liberty) but in all fairness, the video on the Liberty website as well as the imfamous 'Security on Sale' video show Liberty's bottom of the line safe (The Centurion) which is more along the lines of Amsecs TF line of safes in terms of price and overall protection.

The higher end Liberty doors are just sheet metal wrapped around some hardplate at the location of the locking mechanism, as they clearly show in their video's, on the higher end units construction, they insert a "plate" for "added rigity."  The guy lifting that "plate" and placing it into the bent sheetmetal door is not lifting a plate, he's lifting thicker sheet metal, if he were lifting a 1/4" plate(plate starts and sheetmetal ends at 1/4") he would not be lifting and inserting it so easily for the size that he's working with.  The Liberty's composite door is not even close to the door that you get on an AMSEC, regardless if they are priced the same.

As far as a TL-15 being worth only 10 minutes more than a RSC, you don't understand the tests.  The average thief with some time will get into an RSC, the average thief with many hours will not get into a TL-15, they are worlds apart.  Most higher end RSC gunsafe's cost as much as a used TL-15 or even a TL-30 of the same size, which can be configured to hold guns.  

People tend to attach alot of emotion to security products including safes, which is why some "safe companies" use gimmicks like fancy paint, 3 spoke handles, and BS like " 1 inch composite door" to sell their products.  Real safe's are sold on facts, the heavier and thicker the steel, the thicker the insulation, not fire block material, and the tighter the door fit, the more resistant to break in's they'll be.

Cant sleep.  Safe arrives and set up tomorrow.

So now that I got a manual lock, how do we go about giving me whatever combination I want?  Does the safe-tech guide me through the process without actually seeing the numbers I use?  Like, will he be on the inside of the door manipulating the lock while I"m on the outside dialing in the numbers I want?  Any chance he'll know my combi?

I read something interesting on making your mechanical dial lock combination have the fewest turns of the dial:
Never use number over 50
First number in the 40s
Second number in the 20s
Third number in the 30s

Never have the last number be between 80 and 20

This ensures the fewest amount of turns of the dial to open your lock without compromising security.

I'm pretty sure that there is no combination set on this lock... or rather... it's set from the factory with a one digit combination, the number 50 I think.  (crank left to 50, then crank right, open lock) At least that's how they open other floor model safes with the same S&G lock.  Either way, I know this may sound paranoid but I'm not comfortable with people who are in the business of picking locks and opening safes to know my combination.  I realize that they can already easily compromise the lock without the combination, but why make it even easier.  Heck, they already know my address and can safely assume I have guns and or other valuable worth locking up.  Yeah, it's a stretch but after what I'm spending for this safe, why should I compromise it's security even the slightest.

ETA:  I recently found out that Amsec has a master code for their electronic locks that can be used to open locks with forgotten passwords.  I don't know how crazy I am about that whole idea.

Worldwide (my safe maker) gave me the key to do the code change myself.  If it is a S&G lock, look at their instructions here:
http://worldwidesafe.com/PDF/S&GGroup2&2MOperatingInstructions.pdf

I'd even send you my key if you don't have one.  Just send it back when your done.
Whatever you do, make sure you test it ALOT before you lock it closed.

Safe... err... RSC has arrived and is set up.  I will post pictures shortly of the process.

Something I found interesting that I was unaware of is that only the bolts on the opening side of the safe are active.  The bolts on the hinge side are fixed.  I guess I assumed that given the higher end quality of the Amsec that it would have all active bolts.  Since this thread is a comparison of the Liberty Lincoln with the Amsec BF, it should be duly noted that the Liberty Lincoln has all active locking bolts.  To me, It makes no difference in terms of security.  In fact, it seems to be better in that there are less moving parts to fail.  Of course, had they all been active bolts, I'm sure I could have rationalized in favor of them as well.

more to follow...

My TL-30 has non-moving bolts on the non-hinge side.

Don't sweat it.  

Just a gimmick like the internal/external hinge thing.

Here are some pics of the delivery and installation.  Sorry for the crappy quality of the first few which were taken with my phone.









It had to be moved through some tight spaces and down a hall dragging it on a blanket up to the carpet.  Then they had to wiggle and slide it around to get it in place.  This was no easy task even for 2 pretty strong guys.




I had them run a 14 gauge power cord in from the back so that I can rig an electrical outlet to power lights and whatever else I may think of.


Getting ready to bolt it down




Helps to have the right tools


And here she is with my entire collection inside




And here's the electrical work.



The extra slack that you see there just needs to be pulled out of the back of the safe.


I haven't gotten the lights yet but when I do, I will update.

Nice.  Glad it turned out well.  

MAHA

Since this thread was to compare the Liberty and the Amsec, I'd like to show what a $35 light kit from Home Depot can do, since part of my dilema choosing between the two safes was that the Liberty had the lights already installed.  The light kit is the "Hampton Bay 3-Light LED Task and Accent Light Kit".  I cant find them anywhere online including the HD website, but they had them in the store.  These lights never get hot and last like 50,000 hours unlike the xenon bulbs in the Liberty that last only a fraction of that, are much hotter, and much less energy efficient.



These pictures were taken in a pitch dark room with only the safe lights on.

Looks good. I too used the drag method when moving my safe in when we couldn't get it to walk sideways such as through the door way. I moved mine myself across a carpeted room the other day with most guns taken out. 850# and it wasn't too bad so bolting it down is a definite must.

In continuation of the spirit of this thread (which was to compare the Liberty Lincoln to the Amsec BF), I'd like to show a couple more little updates I made to the Amsec.  First, I added the door switch  ($21) to enable the lights to turn on and off by opening and closing the door.  It works great.



The other addition I made was the door mounted pistol pocket panel made by (or for) Liberty Safes ($63).  I like the look of this system better than other safe door pistol organizer systems.



So all told, I've spent under $150 to add the features to the Amsec that I originally favored the Liberty Lincoln for having (door activated lighting and a door pistol pocket organizer).  Not bad I think.

I recently bought an AMSEC 6636, should be here in two weeks.    I assume that the freight company will just drop it off in my garage and be on their way.  To the OP, did your delivery guys also do the installation?   It's hard to tell from the pics, but it seems like perhaps they did.

Yes, delivered and bolted down.

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