This whole experience was many months in the making.  I will do my best to describe everything for the newcomer to buying a safe. (pics at the bottom)

I've wanted a gun safe for some time.  My collection is not large, but I plan on it growing over the course of my life.  I know that the common wisdom is to buy larger than you need if you don't want to do it over again, so I started to educate myself for what was to be a lifetime purchase.

I started where most everyone starts, the local gun shop/ outdoor store.  I saw the prices, fire ratings, burglar ratings (or so I thought), and didn't know what to think.  

I started reading, and stumbled onto this video.  If you haven't seen it, it is well worth the time.
The "safe" in this video is the lowest line of the Liberty brand as I understand it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPUrqStiSTQ

This video really shook my confidence in buying a "safe" from a sporting goods store if I really wanted it to be a single lifetime purchase.  

We'll get back to my story in a moment, but at this point, a brief overview of the two safe rating systems is warranted. This is a condensed version of the information I gathered while doing my research on the matter.
Scroll down to "Tech info stops here" if you know about this already.

Tech info starts here:
There are two rating systems,  the old insurance rating (B, C, E, F) and the UL rating.
There are better descriptions on the web than this, but this should serve as an overview.
(copied in part from http://www.doubleasecurity.net/SAFE_INVENTORY/SAFERATE2.htm)

Old Insurance Rating System:
"B" Rate Safe: A safe with at least a 1/4 inch body, 1/2 inch door.  These safes face no testing and the presence of a locking device on the box give them the "B" rating.  

"C" Rate Safe: This is defined as a 1/2 inch thick steel box with a 1 inch thick door and lock on it.  It must have hard plate and re-lock.  As before no tests are given to provide this rating.

"E" Rate Safe:  The label requires that the safe be constructed of 1 inch solid steel or equivalent.  It is normally a safe similar in construction to a TL-15, yet has not been tested by an Independent testing company.  

"F" Rate Safe :  No real definitive description.  Tougher than E-rate.

UL Rating system:
Residential Security Container (RSC or otherwise TL-5)  - If properly bolted to the floor, this will resist attack for a minimum of 5 minutes from common hand tools (hammer, screwdriver, prybar).  If it is not bolted to the floor, the rating is void (as seen in the video posted above).

TL-15 - Will resist attack on its front/face for a minimum of 15 minutes using power tools.  Sides are to be constructed to some minimum thickness, but are not attacked for the rating.

TL-30 - same as TL-15 but for 30 minutes.

TL-15x6 and TL-30x6 - same as the two above, but attack is conducted on all 6 sides.
TRTL/TRTXTL - I won't even go there... suffice it to say that explosives are allowed in the testing.... look it up.

It is important to note that the time indicated by UL is net working time.  The stop watch is started and stopped each time the tools go on the safe.  The test literally takes days as the UL engineers map out exactly how to attack it using the manufacturers blue prints.
To see what a UL test is like, see this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbGUbeM860

Roughly, E-rate is TL-15 and F-rate is TL-30.
Tech info ends here:

Now that we've got that out of the way...
I knew I needed something more substantial than a standard RSC if this was to be a once in a lifetime purchase.  So I began to price some TL rated safes .............. and about passed out.

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American Security's HF series (TL-30 rated) gun safes start at 14k new without shipping and installation.  
Graffunder's B-rate start at around 6k without shipping
(I could just picture myself in a burglary saying, "Please don't hurt my safe!!.. I'll open it for you, just don't hit it!")  My contents are barely a fraction of that cost, so this was just ridiculous.

So just when I was about to give up on getting a safe any time this decade, I read a recommendation on the net to look for used safes locally.  It was said that businesses closing will almost give them away if you haul them off.  So I called the local (and only) safe mover in town.  It became an experience I would almost regret.

I called them up and explained what I wanted. (used jewelers safe or similar)  They said they knew of one in town and would arrange for me to come and see it.  (It was in the jewelers wharehouse.)  
Well, Almost 2 weeks later and too many phone calls to remember, I was finally able to go and see it.  It was a used Worldwide safe - WW-6032.  They wanted $5k for it.

Now, I had never heard of WW.  I'd looked at what I thought were all the major safe makers.  But it turns out that if you google "safe", worldwide never really shows up.  (likely due to the common use of the term "worldwide")  So... I called them up to get some specs and pricing information.  This safe new from WW was $4800 delivered.  So, basically, my local guy was gonna take me on this one bad in addition to REALLY bad service.

I began talking to the WW salesman about the specs, etc.  He then told me that a jewelry store chain was closing and they had 18 of the larger WW-6536 that they had to get rid of. $3800 delivered!!  I sent him a check as soon as we had the details figured out.

On to the fun stuff... the specs and pics.

Interior - 65” 36” 26”
Exterior - 72” 43” 35 1/2”
4424 LBS, 35.2 cubic feet interior
TL-30 rating
2 hour fire rating (other independent lab, not UL)

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From the website: http://worldwidesafe.com/prodTL30.htm
"The Body is a composite (12,000 PSI) single bell cast, one-piece design with solid 3 1/2” thick walls. The high density insulating materials incorporated into the construction of the body and door insure two hours of certified fire protection. The massive 6” thick door houses the impressive three-way active 1 1/2” diameter chrome plated bolts, which engage both vertically and horizontally into the cast of the body. The bolts stay in the retracted position when the door is opened and automatically engage when the door is closed. The door has been equipped with self-lubricating ball bearing adjustable hinges that ensure a lifetime of use."

Now we wait... and wait.. and wait.  It turns out that it isn't very easy to find a truck with a liftgate that can handle 4000+ pounds.  Mayflower (who WW contracted to move the safe) had to rent a truck from Enterprise (in the next city over an hour away) to deliver it to my house.  This truck had a lift gate that was rated for 5000 pounds, and you could tell it was struggling to hold it.  Mayflower brought 6 men with moving tools, and it took about an hour to put it where I wanted (no details, but trust me it was a very basic install, my house is a single story.)  It is amazing how difficult it is to move something so compact that weighs more than a car.  Needless to say, I am not worried about anyone walking off with it.

I still have to finish the inside.  This is a jewelers safe, not a gun safe.  I will need a bit of creativity, some plywood, and some carpet to finish the inside myself.  Well worth the price differential in my opinion.  This is a pic of it in WW's warehouse before shipping.  I may take a pic of the interior when I finish, but I may not... we'll see.

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All in all, I like the deal I got.  I thought WW was a great company to deal with.  I would highly recommend them.  (As of two weeks ago, they still had 17 of these left)
If you want to deal with my WW contact, here is his info:

George Pazos
Worldwide Safe and Vault, Inc.
3660 NW 115th, Miami, FL 33178 USA
Toll Free: 800-932-2278 x 224
Local: 305-477-9266 x 224
Fax: 305-477-9744

WOW, my floor would not be able to support the weight of the safe. Lots of good info though thanks for the post, look forward to seeing pics once you have it completed!

Interesting. I've never heard of them,.. any chance of posting a close-up picture of the actual UL stamp?

It's just that seems a bit on the light side for TL-30 of that size......

TRTL is just torch and tool rated. TRTXTL is for explosives... Although with the shaped-charges available today I can't imagine the TX means much.

Used is always the much better route these days. With so many large retailers/jewelry stores and banks going out of business it's a no-brainer...

I don't know where you get the idea that this is a bit light.... both Graffunder F-rate and AMsec TL-30 safes of this size are within the 2 ton range.
Mine is 4400+ pounds!!
I suppose there is no harm in posting the UL tag.

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Higher resolution link

Not sure if I missed it - but I presume they charged you additional for installation/delivery - above the $3800 - my guess is at least $500 from your description.

Nope, it was included.

$3800 was the price for the safe delivered and installed where I specified.

It was a really good deal IMHO.

I've been working on the interior of it and should have some more pics soon.

Looking forward to seeing the pics. Keep us posted!

tag

I am looking for a safe

That's a gross understatement...

It was a FUCKING STEAL!!! at that price...

Nice score, man, nice score...

Please please post copious pics when you get it, and when you do your interior. They priced me a TL30 65x36 interior
72x43x35.5 exterior for 3900 delivered and installed; 4400lbs

They told me one of the AMSEC BF6636 interior would fit in it with 4 inches in depth that wouldn't be carpeted. I don't think I got a price for them installing the interior.

I have an AMSEC TL30 that I left as shelves and just carpeted the inside. I am very interested in what you do with yours. Please keep us updated.

clivus,

How was your dealing with WW?  

They rate pretty good in my book.  They aren't used to dealing with individual retail buyers as much, but I felt they handled it well.
They even did some things that were unexpected, like let me talk to the service dept guys about changing the lock combo.  They even sent me the key to do it myself.  (somewhat unusual for mechanical locks as I understand it)
I think what I liked most is that they didn't have a problem answering any of my questions on their safe construction, etc.  
AMSEC wouldn't even say hello to me on the phone.  I had to go to the locksmith's office and they had to call AMSEC and relay my questions to them and relay their answers back.  Graffunder had similar customer service to WW.  Since there were no dealers in Louisiana, they didn't mind dealing with me directly.

I HATE having to go through a middle man for information like that.


Not to keep stringing this along, but I think everyone will be pleased with what I've come up with for an interior.
I'm only about 1/3rd done with the interior so far, but will try to take pics this weekend.  Wife/kids and Memorial weekend events come first.

As a hint, I'm using the rifle rod approach for long gun space savings.  I'm not using actual "rifle rods" though.... I'm going with the "do it yourself approach".
I'm doing the same "DIY" approach with lighting also.

I never thought of using an AMSEC interior.  If I had thought of it, I'd probably have gone that route.  Having my plan now, I think I can beat the AMSEC interior with my custom approach.
I'll try to get pics of the 1/3 done by monday.

I have been in contact with George and he offered me similar deal. It is just quite a bit above my budget, I would have to finish off the interior too, and would be impossible for me to ever move by myself. I just kind of fell that I could get a decent traditional gun safe brand new for that price.

No doubt you could get a "traditional" gun safe for that price, but this isn't a "traditional gun safe".

Go price a similar TL-30 rated gun safe and see what you get.   I was quoted $14k for AMSEC's TL-30 gunsafe.

I haven't bought from them yet, but they have been great. I first sent an email asking about the TRX6836 Superfortress. Kevin Rosen politely reeled me in. I thought I might as well get the tool and torch 30 minute ratings on all 6 sides. Little did I know, it's a $26000 safe.
So, he pitched what I assume is the same safe you got. I've gotten some prices on the AMSEC RF6528 and the HS7943, and they are much more expensive for the same amount of security. (Less so for the HS7943). Plus the HS is damn near 7000 pounds and it required very special equipment to deliver. In fact the rigger I talked to said they couldn't wheel that big of a safe in the garage door. They were going to have to drop it off and then roll it in on pipes, Egyptian pyramid style. If I went with the RF6528 instead, they said they had a forklift which could drive under the door. I must say that Dye the Safe Guy at the Safe and Vault Store was very helpful and tracked down the local rigger for delivery.
I'm torn between the AMSEC and the Worldwide, but I could get 2 of the Worldwide safes for about the same price as one of the RF6528s. Thus why I'm so interested in your interior job.

Here's my AMSEC TL30 that came out of an armored car company.

Very impressive safe!  Looks like one heck of a deal too!  I'd like to see a larger pic of the inside (before renovation) if you have one.

clivus,

@ the $26k.  That's pretty funny.

Mine looks a good bit wider than yours.

Here are a few pics for reference.  I'm 5'8".  Before I put stuff in it, I could EASILY fit inside, with room for 1 or 2 more people.  It's actually big enough to fit my outdoor freezer inside of it.   In other words, its damn big.  When I wired it, I had to stand inside to route the cable through it.

It was actually a bit scary being completely inside this thing.  It was soo deep that not even my feet stuck out while I stood inside to do the wiring.  I kept checking to make sure the door wasn't starting to close.  The door is so heavy that once it gets started moving it takes a fair amount of force to stop its movement.

Pics of internals will follow soon.  I don't have it set up good enough to take pictures yet.

Did you have them paint it? It looks sharp. I expected the battleship gray color unless you paid extra for paint. They offered to put a high gloss finish on it, but in my mind it's a safe, not furniture.
It is freakin awesome. I think you just made up my mind. Even if I have to wait a bit until they get another used safe in stock, I would rather have the money for another in case I fill the other 2 up.

They painted it no charge.  I had the option of black, light or dark grey and beige.
The other free choice I had was a high security key lock for a secondary lock or a second combo lock.  I went with the second combo lock.
You have he choice of using one or both.  You can leave the other unlocked if you wish.  (I usually don't)

Are they out of the used ones already!!??

They had 17 left after I bought mine only about 4 weeks ago.

They probably aren't. He just mentioned that since it was used, 'stock is subject to availability.'
I don't close on my new house until Mid July, so I'm not going to buy before then. I'm betting they still have some available.

WARNNG DO NOT BUY A SAFE LIKE THIS. A BAD GUY CAN ROB YOU AND PUSH YOU INSIDE!

Buy a safe no taller than 36 inches tall

Update pics!!

Ok, Here are some more pics.

First up is the picture as it is set up currently.  I have my long guns set up with my home made rifle rods, and my lighting system for the ceiling all set up.
I use the ammo cans for ammo (obviously) and to arrange nick nacks and accessories (front sights, old scope bases etc).  I can fit 36 ammo cans EASILY with room to spare on the bottom under the shelf.  (We had a gun show this weekend, so I topped off on enough 30 cal cans to fit in there.... I'll figure out what to put in them another day.)

I've drawn in by hand (and I'm no artist), what I envision on the right side.  Just simple shelves for my fireproof box ( birth certs, insurance papers etc) and whatever else I can think of.

If you look carefully, you'll notice that except for a few accessories and the ammo cans, I barely use half of the depth here.
I've got A LOT of room left.  I estimate that 24 long guns would easily fit in the space I've outlined.




Next up are two pictures taken without a flash to show how the lighting looks

In person, there is a much more dramatic difference than the pictures show.
Close up of the switch.


Close up of my home made rifle rods.
Homemade rifle rod info: 3/16th wooden dowel, wooden toy wheel with 3/16th hole, hobby ceramic magnet, and guerrilla glue.  Got them all at our local Hobby Lobby.  Since I don't have a carpet interior, the magnets make a great contact (ker-plunk) with the ceiling of the safe.  Cost me about $20 with the guerrilla glue being the single most expensive item.



j



As you can see, my contents really don't justify a safe like this.  I can barely even find enough stuff to put in it.  But over the next many decades, I hope to fill it up with stuff more "safe-worthy".

Next plans are to neaten up the wiring, build the shelves, carpet them, install shelf lighting, then..... go buy more guns.

that is one nice set up you have there.  
Maybe one day I can expand mine...

I've got to say the rifle rods are ingenious. I really should be using the magnetic nature of my safe for more things.

Could you run a tape from the bottom shelf to the top of the interior? My Barrett 99 is 50" in length, and I would love to have the space underneath the longguns for storage. I especially like that you put the heavy stuff on the bottom.

Actually, I would like to have all the dimensions of your safe as I may buy that exact model.

The safe pictured above is:
outside: 65" tall x 39" wide x 31" deep
inside: 50" tall x 29" wide x 21.5" deep

My dimensions are:
Exterior - 72” 43” 35 1/2”
Interior - 65” 36” 26”

Measured from the top of my shelf to the top of the safe is 49.5".  You could lower it by one notch and fit your Barrett easily.
The shelf you see in the picture came with it (5 total).  It is a heavy steel with a curled lip on front and back for sturdiness.  I have no doubt I could stand on it without flexing it.

Excelent looking safe! I like the rifle rods with magnets... great idea!  Do you have smaller sizes for smaller calibers ie .17 and .22?  What are the shelves on the top right made out of?

Trying to talk myself into one of these safes, but really don't NEED it.

The 3/16 fits fine in a .22 bore.  I don't have any .17 stuff, but I'd imagine that a 1/8" rod would do ok.  The shelves that came with it are steel, but I just drew some in for the previous picture.  I'm making some wood shelves like I drew out.

The safe is definitely a good deal.  You don't often find a TL-30 / 2hr fire rated safe for less than $4k delivered.
For most people, unless they win the lottery, this is more safe than you will ever need in your life.

That's why I got it.  I won't be doing this again, so I spent my money and cried once.

Spent a good part of the day making this:


I still have to figure out what type of carpet/covering to use.  I can't decide between indoor/outdoor carpet and boat carpet.  Or maybe just canvas.... or I could leave it bare wood.  I also want to run a new string of lights on each shelf's ceiling.

Thoughts anyone?

If anyone is going to copy my rifle rod DIY approach, I recommend using 1/2" dowel for any shotguns.  I just did it for my 870, and it works much better than the thinner rod for small bore rifles.

I used a low loop pile kinda indoor/outdoor. I just found a cheap remnant at a carpet store that fit what I was looking for.
Are you going to carpet the white main horizontal shelf? I would think it might help secure the butt stocks of the rifles from sliding around. Or I might be looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

One more question, did it come predrilled for electric? What about bolting down?

That's a good idea to look for remnants..... Thanks!!

I will probably carpet the main horizontal shelf.  I think your right about sliding.  It's pretty slick right now.  It would also look better.

It does come with a 1/4" hole (drilled at an angle).  When they refurbed and painted mine, the paint clogged up the hole.  It took me a while with a really long drill bit to clear it all out.  If you get one, I suggest checking this before it is put in place and pre running your wire while you have clear access to the back.

You don't need to bolt a safe this heavy to the ground.  In fact, it doesn't even have a hole to bolt it down.
Alot of people don't realize that the bolt hole in most RSC's is required by Underwriters Laboratory.  If you don't bolt down your RSC, it voids the rating.  You have to get to the 750 or 1000 pound weight (empty) before you don't need to bolt it down.

In other words, if you can really move 4000+ pounds, the resistance of a few bolts will be trivial compared to the lifting machinery you have at your disposal.

Sorry to keep bothering you, but the price they quoted to me was "delivered and installed." I assume they hire out the installation job to a local company? You didn't have to move it yourself right?

I hope everyone reading this thread goes out and buys a real safe instead of a RSC. I can't see spending the same or near the same amount of money for a sheet metal safe. It's laughable to look at the weights of the "safes" in the same size category that you got.

I don't mind the questions.  I like passing on a good deal to help a fellow gun owner.  I'll answer what I can.

Yes, on "delivered and installed" for $3800 even.  My local safe guy (who was a major pain to deal with) couldn't handle a safe this big, so they hired Mayflower.  Mayflower deals with big equipment moving all the time (printing presses, manufacturing machinery etc.)  I didn't have to touch it, but I did supervise the entire process.  Their moving equipment scratched the paint on the side of the safe, but the Mayflower guys even touched up the paint with the paint supplied by Worldwide.  

Worldwide even told me to call them if I ever move to another house.  They said they would contact Mayflower for me and get me a cheaper price to move it.  It will likely run between $500-$1k to move it.  This is NOT a suitable safe for an apartment dweller or someone who hops around a lot.

How many did you say they had left?

They had 40 jewelry stores go out of business ( a chain of them in Florida I think), and return their safes to WW.
I ordered the 18th to last they had about a month ago, so they had 17 left after mine.

The WW sales guy suspected they'd be out of them in 6-10 weeks, as they are selling them for VERY cheap to get them out of their warehouse.

I don't know how many they have left.  I put George's # at the bottom of the first post of this thread.  Call him, he was great to deal with.

And let me know how you like it if you get one.  I don't think you'd be disapointed.

Jpill,
What type of floor do you have the safe on?  Concrete slab, joists?

This is on a concrete slab on dirt.

I have it on good authority that this type of floor can withstand about 2000 pounds per square foot.  My safe being 4400 pounds and about 12 square feet is well under the limit of my floor.

I don't know what the limit on a wooden joist type would be.  I'd image it is very construction specific.

tag

tag

I just bought a very large TL30 from Worldwide Safes. Should be here sometime next week. I'll start a new thread when it arrives.

WOW looks great.

Can't wait to read your write up of what you got and your experience in dealing with them.

Clivus––-
How much $ was that monster??
How much does it weigh?
Holy Sh-t that a beaut! I can't wait to see what you do with it!

$3900 delivered. Specs are as follows:
Outside: 72” Height X 43” Width X 38” Overall Depth
Inside: 65” Height X 36” Width X 26” Depth
Weight: 4424 LBS.            35.2 Cubic Feet

JP, I plan on mimicking your setup.

That is an awesome safe!  If I had space, that is what I would put in it.  Not a bad price either for what your getting, and delivered to boot!

Clivus––
Just a few more questions. Is that safe in the pic a brand new one or a previously used one?
Are the shelves removeable?
I'm really liking that model and $3900 delivered is a very attractive price for a TL-30 of that size, I think.

Two minutes on google and I found a dealer selling brand new AMSEC TL-30's for way less than what you paid for your used safe, but it doesn't have as much space.

Well... post a link then.    Lets share the info!

Shelves should be removable. The safe pictured is the actual one I bought. They take pictures of their inventory. It's black in the photo, but they are repainting it dark gray. They are also changing the lock for one with a lockable dial.

You aren't going to beat that price for a safe in this size. I contacted safeandvaultstore, directsafes, deansafes, and Worldwide.(Maybe another one, I lost my sheet). Direct safes had a very good price on new safes, but it was still $1000-2000 more depending on the protection. I could have gotten a Directsafe TL-30 x6 for 6000 delivered, which was over my allotted budget, but still very attractive. (x6!) The delivered price on the TL-30 was 5300 if I recall.

Interesting thing about the TL-30x6. I asked why it weighed as much as the TL-30, and he said the only different was the manganese plate on all 6 sides instead of just the door. He stated it would stop drills in their tracks. However, he said a plasma cutter would breech either the TL-30 or the TL30x6 with the same ease. No difference.

A few notes about the safe companies. Deansafes were very nice on the phone, but were out of my price range. They only offer TL-30x6 in that size. They also could only get the safe to the liftgate. The moving inside was my responsibility.

Directsafe was great, and is where I probably would have bought had I not found the used safe. They gave real quotes with delivered and installed prices. They have couriers that will handle the equipment.

Safeandvaultstore has great customer service. Dye is very helpful and knows his safes. They only had liftgate service, but he tracked down a rigger in my area that could pick up the safe at the depot and then install it. I wouldn't hesitate to use them, but after shipping and rigging, the price was too high.

I doubt it. First, the safe you mention "doesn't have as much space." Safe prices and weight increase exponentially as the size increases.

Second, does your deal include shipping AND installation. A 4000lb safe on the curb is worthless to me. If it doesn't include installation to the end point, you haven't even started to shop.

You can get the AMSEC TL-30 gunsafe installed for about 6000-7000. It's the only TL-30 with a gunsafe interior. Graffunder offers some that aren't UL rated, but have the equivalent protection.

You are right about $$ and weight increasing exponentially, thats why I was hoping for his link to compare apples to apples.  Clivus and I have done alot of research in this area.  If you do more than a "two minute" search on google, you will understand that there is ALOT more that goes into it than the main line quoted price.  Small increases in size = big increases in $$ and shipping $$.
Shipping alone can be 1k-4k or more depending on size and distance.  Usually, this doesn't even include installation, just "curbside".

This really is a damn good deal.

See prices at the bottom

Yep. This one is a smaller. and 1000 lbs less.
CF6528 TL-30 Price: $5,809.00

Edit, and that price doesn't include shipping.