First range trip with the E4 and a question...*NEW updatew/pics* - Page 1

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - First range trip with the E4 and a question...*NEW updatew/pics* (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 10/7/2010 6:09:30 PM EDT

Hey guys,

I'm happy to report that I finally made a range trip out today with my E4 after a month of gathering a set of BUIS and an Aimpoint CompM3 w/LT-152 mount. The rifle ran flawlessly and was surprisingly accurate with some bulk Wally-world Federal .223. In fact, I was able to make "one-shot one-kill" hits on clay pidgeons and pop cans at the 100yd berm with ease. Needless to say I left with a big grin on my face.

However, I noticed something odd about my E4 after tearing it down for a clean up. It seems that the bolt sleeve is peening itself where it contacts the "locking" section(would be the barrel extention on an AR...on an AUG clone it's part of the reciever) of the reciever every time the bolt slams home. What is mean to say is that the fingers that extent from the bolt sleeve and interface with the bolt when it is not locked into the reciever are very clearly peening over from contact with the reciever when the bolt/carrier lock into battery. The peening is easily seen and is also leaving an noticeable edge that I initially found with my fingers when cleaning the rifle. Is this normal?

FWIW...the rifle is brand new and has 105 rounds of .223 through it.

I will post pics as soon as I'm able but I don't think that will be until early next week. I know that pics would help though. I've looked at pics on the web to see if any other AUG bolt sleeves show the same type of peening and I've not seen any pics like it yet. Thanks for the input!!

-D2V

Edit: Make that two questions....I wouldn't mind making a small "backup" parts stash for this rifle...any suggestions for common failure items? I think after some reports are out I'll consider a Ratworx enhanced bolt(leaving my factory MSAR as a backup)..is there anything that it would be wise to keep around? I don't want to spend a ton on backup parts, though, as I'm REALLY thinking about trying to pick up an AUG A3 over the winter...

Posted: 10/8/2010 4:09:23 AM EDT

[#1]

I just hit 250 rounds with my E4 the other day and noticed the same thing on my bolt when I was cleaning. My rifle has yet to have one misfire and I assume it's fairly normal.

Posted: 10/8/2010 6:35:14 AM EDT

[#2]

Same here with my E4 and I stopped counting at 3,500 rounds. Still runs like a top so I wouldn't worry about a little peening.

MadDog

Posted: 10/8/2010 8:39:29 AM EDT

[#3]

The bolt sleeve has been an identified weak point in the AUG design for some time now, but it's not typically a serious issue. MSAR when they designed the STG556 tried to beef up the bolt sleeve to make it even less of an issue and that bolt sleeve design has carried over the E4 of course. What in particular is happening with your rifle is hard to say without seeing it myself. If you can get some pictures up that always helps folks here help you.

In terms of spare parts to have on hand it is essentially like any other semi-auto rifle in that a spare bolt and/or extractors are always a good thing to have. I would definitely recommend that at a minimum you purchase a spare extractor kit and that is one of the attractive things about the Ratworx hybrid bolt is that you can use AR extractors with it and they are inexpensive and readily available. However, Ratworx doesn't have a right handed hybrid bolt last I check, but when they do I'll be buying one for certain. If you like to shoot steel cased ammunition some say you're being very hard on your extractor so that's something to consider as well. The other part that I would like to have on hand if I were an STG,E4,AUG,AXR owner would be a spare bolt sleeve. I have seen and heard of bolt sleeves failing and it's a small and not terrible expensive part so they're nice to have on hand.

The bolt carrier, the hammer pack, and other parts are all pretty much tanks. I haven't seen reports beyond bolt sleeve and extractor failures parts wise other than one instance about a year and a half ago of a heat treatment issue on a run that was near impossible to catch and ended up causing some issues prompting a recall. Obviously, the E4 has the magazine well fix that was done as well so that is something you'll want to look into. I haven't personally had to deal with the E4 magwell issue, because I've got an STG556 so someone else can chime in on that.

Posted: 10/8/2010 9:27:41 AM EDT

[#4]

All three of my E4 stocks have the upgraded magazine catch. Each one took less than a week from the time I shipped till the time it showed up at my door again.

Spare parts I have on hand - Extractors, bolt sleeve, firing pin, springs, gas rings.

Ratworx sells a spare parts kit that, while not cheap, should have everything you'll need.

Posted: 10/8/2010 4:06:27 PM EDT

[#5]

Thanks for the input guys! I am planning on taking pictures of the bolt sleeve(along with the entire rifle for show-off capability

) early next week.

It seems that the bolt sleeve isn't likely to fail since it is, indeed, soft enough to peen over against the reciever. However, as I'm sure most of you can relate, when you purchase a new firearm(particularly an entire new platform) it can be a bit disconcerting to see obvious wear after only 100 rounds. I'm not all that worried though, as the design dictates that the sleeve be driven home against the reciever.

I sent a e-mail just a little while ago to Ratworx about some spare parts...we'll see what they have to say. Thanks again!

-D2V

Posted: 10/8/2010 6:55:31 PM EDT

[#6]

I had the peening along with a couple other issues. When Jeff worked on it, he machined some of the receiver where the sleeve makes contact. I now have MUCH less peening going on. Just a heads up.

Posted: 10/8/2010 7:12:55 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
All three of my E4 stocks have the upgraded magazine catch. Each one took less than a week from the time I shipped till the time it showed up at my door again.

That's one benefit of living on the East Coast, mine took almost 2 weeks door to door.

Still great customer service as far as i'm concerned, stock was received on Sept. 27th and shipped out the same day. Way to go Paul.

Posted: 10/8/2010 7:29:49 PM EDT

[#8]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...I picked my E4 up during the very beginning of the rebate offer...mine came with the upgraded mag catch right out of the box.

Pmags don't drop free but slide easily in and out.

-D2V

Posted: 10/8/2010 9:59:57 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Thanks for the input guys! I am planning on taking pictures of the bolt sleeve(along with the entire rifle for show-off capability

) early next week.

It seems that the bolt sleeve isn't likely to fail since it is, indeed, soft enough to peen over against the reciever. However, as I'm sure most of you can relate, when you purchase a new firearm(particularly an entire new platform) it can be a bit disconcerting to see obvious wear after only 100 rounds. I'm not all that worried though, as the design dictates that the sleeve be driven home against the reciever.

I sent a e-mail just a little while ago to Ratworx about some spare parts...we'll see what they have to say. Thanks again!

-D2V

This is the small parts kit as sold by Ratworx

It contains:
firing pin
firing pin spring
cocking piece
firing pin lock sleeve
bolt spring
bolt sleeve
gas piston spring
gas piston rings - 5

extractor rebuild kit:
extractor
extractor pin
extractor spring
extractor pad
extractor o ring - 2

ejector rebuild kit:
ejector
ejector spring
ejector pin

You may want to consider a complete bolt. I've not seen reports of or had a fractured bolt but storing one in the buttstock would be the quick field repair.

I can't find my receipt from Ratworx but I think this was around $170 but don't hold me to that. That was before shipping and credit card fee.

When I ordered mine they were out of stock but put my name on a waiting list. A couple of weeks later I got a call on Saturday morning and the voice message said I had 2 hours to contact them and confirm I wanted it or they would put my name back on the bottom of the list and go to the next person. Wasn't impressed with that.

I did find it was better to call than e mail.

J

Posted: 10/8/2010 10:08:44 PM EDT

[#10]

I'm really trying to talk myself into one of the E4's. Kinda want for a range toy. My only problem is mechanics. I don't want to screw up the muscle memory I've built up by using an AR.

Posted: 10/9/2010 5:00:40 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
I'm really trying to talk myself into one of the E4's. Kinda want for a range toy. My only problem is mechanics. I don't want to screw up the muscle memory I've built up by using an AR.

Don't sweat it. After a few trips to the range w/an E4 you won't own any AR's...

Tomac

Posted: 10/9/2010 5:28:32 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Don't sweat it. After a few trips to the range w/an E4 you won't own any AR's...

Tomac

Amen to that.

Posted: 10/10/2010 6:19:12 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Don't sweat it. After a few trips to the range w/an E4 you won't own any AR's...

Tomac

Amen to that.

Ditto! I'm down to just 3 uppers and 2 lowers!

Posted: 10/18/2010 2:59:11 PM EDT

[#14]

Hey guys,

Here's some pics of my new toy and a few pics of the "peening" going on with the bolt sleeve. What do you think? Should I contact MSAR on this?

Black MSAR STG-E4 w/Aimpoint CompM3(w/LT-152 mount) and Troy BUIS:

The bolt sleeve:

-D2V

Posted: 10/18/2010 3:25:35 PM EDT

[#15]

Thats a problem. Its either a bad sleeve or something is keeping the sleeve from moving inside the carrier properly . How does the cam pin and sleeve area look ?

Posted: 10/18/2010 3:38:57 PM EDT

[#16]

Almost looks like they forgot to temper it. That metal is still malleable. Is it just the picture or is it also not coated, either with chrome or Parkerized

Posted: 10/18/2010 3:50:40 PM EDT

[#17]

Nope, not coated, either. You can see the wear/polish marks in the top of the bolt sleeve.

I thought this was a bit extreme since it's only got 105 rounds through it.

-D2V

Posted: 10/18/2010 4:06:57 PM EDT

[#18]

Definitely looks like your bolt sleeve didn't get heat treated. Or finished.
Doesn't look like the bolt is finished either... Plus it's got some burrs remaining at the front in between the locking lugs. Makes me wonder if the bolt is heat treated...

I'd definitely call MSAR with a big WTF!

Posted: 10/19/2010 4:15:13 AM EDT

[#19]

Crap my E4 with 250 rounds looks just as bad as I posted earlier in this thread. I'll talk with Pete from PJ's Investments where I got it...

Posted: 10/19/2010 7:17:45 AM EDT

[#20]

The bolt sleeve should NOT look like that!

Posted: 10/19/2010 10:20:17 AM EDT

[#21]

Wow. Concerning. Keep us posted.

Posted: 10/19/2010 11:55:08 AM EDT

[#22]

wow, that is just unacceptable. whoever let that rifle leave the factory like that needs to have a little chat with tony. you shouldnt even need to pay for shipping back to msar. thats an unacceptable human error. not to cost someone their job, but jeez.

Posted: 10/19/2010 12:58:10 PM EDT

[#23]

I'm pissed, I just talked To Jefferey who said I have to send in my entire new E4 in order for them to correct the same issue on mine. Something about having to machine something because of the trunians. They will not cover shipping either...

I better get a free Pmag at least to cover my expenses.

Posted: 10/19/2010 1:36:43 PM EDT

[#24]

Could you post some pics of your trunnion? Something sounds real fishy about "having to machine something because of the trunnions" to me.

Posted: 10/19/2010 2:16:39 PM EDT

[#25]

I'm surprised they are not covering shipping that rifle shouldn't have left the factory in the first place. You aren't requesting an upgrade or trouble shooting. This is a clear defect in manufacturing.

Posted: 10/19/2010 3:27:31 PM EDT

[#26]

I hear you. I'm really pissed about getting screwed on the shipping. I hate to do it but I'm going to direct them to this thread letting them know that this is BS. Not only is it about $10 to ship it but I'm gonna want to insure a complete rifle as well.$$$
I'd take a picture but besides my bolt looking identical to the OP, everything looks perfect and performs perfect.

Posted: 10/19/2010 3:33:01 PM EDT

[#27]

I'm just wondering what they could possibly "machine" on the trunnion to correct the problem. I've looked at mine and can't imagine what that might be. Any projection or other contour on the face of the trunnion that would cause the (properly hardened) bolt sleeve to wear like that would prevent the rifle from firing at all.

Posted: 10/19/2010 3:39:01 PM EDT

[#28]

Better clean it before you send it in!

Posted: 10/19/2010 3:43:58 PM EDT

[#29]

The sleeve on my E4 looks exactly the same as yours. I have a spare or two so I'm just going to shoot it till it breaks. Mine ended up looking like that after about 100 rounds. Now 600+ rounds later still looks the same.

Posted: 10/19/2010 4:08:09 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
I hear you. I'm really pissed about getting screwed on the shipping. I hate to do it but I'm going to direct them to this thread letting them know that this is BS. Not only is it about $10 to ship it but I'm gonna want to insure a complete rifle as well.$$$
I'd take a picture but besides my bolt looking identical to the OP, everything looks perfect and performs perfect.

They're getting really cheap with making people pay shipping to send stuff back so they can fix it under warranty...I'm glad Dave sent me a UPS tag for my mags back in January.

Posted: 10/19/2010 4:20:03 PM EDT

[#31]

Update:

I got an e-mail today from MSAR after I got out of class....they want me to send in the entire rifle. I'm sure it's going to be on my dime, too.

I am not complaining b/c I'd rather spend a little for shipping than have a defective rifle. BUT, I am hoping for some kind of token of appreciation(read:freebies!!).

We'll see. I'm not too happy about having to ship it in(my schedule is so busy right now it will probably take me two weeks just to get it back to MSAR) but better than a FUBARed rifle, I guess.

So, we shall see what happens. Needless to say, I'll keep you guys posted!!

-D2V

Posted: 10/19/2010 5:29:44 PM EDT

[#32]

Yes big problem as the other two former MSAR employees have mentioned.

1. neither of you should have to pay for it
2. the bolt sleeve was not heat treated or finished
3. The trunnion ID may be severely undersized which would cause only the top part of the part of the sleeve to contact and peen. This would mean that there is less lockup for the bolt

Not really anything they can machine, but they could replace it

As Ive said before, my rifle has 10k rounds give or take. This is the original bolt group.

notice the parkerized finish on both the bolt and bolt sleeve. The other two options MSAR experimented with are chrome and black nitride. The pictures you posted dont seem to match any of those choices

a proper trunnion matchup.

Posted: 10/19/2010 6:16:39 PM EDT

[#33]

Thanks for the pics. While I can conceptualize the matchup inside my head the pics really help provide some solidarity to what I am imagining.

That being said, I see where the trunion can't be machined to fit...it is already oversized. I am trying not form a predetermined notion of disappointment...but I sure hope MSAR fixes my rifle correctly.

-D2V

Posted: 10/19/2010 6:18:28 PM EDT

[#34]

Notice the pattern of wear on the "fingers" of my bolt sleeve:

That's just a burnished surface, not peening of any kind. This rifle has about 1000 rounds fired, and has been hand-cycled and allowed to slam closed thousands of times more. The upper half of the "fingertip" contacts the flat rear face of the trunnion, the lower half covers the radiused corner of the trunnion lug, shown below:

Compare my sleeve with the damaged one:

The damaged area matches the the point of contact on my sleeve. There is nothing wrong with your trunnion. Your rifle got assembled with unfinished/unhardened parts, it's bullshit that you should have to pay for return shipping.

Posted: 10/19/2010 6:41:57 PM EDT

[#35]

this thread is full of fail.
1. ratworx doesn't have the parts in stock. you wait for them and then they give you a 2 hour window to call them back? that's BS and shame on them.
2. msar just can't stop stepping on their own dick. they better wake up, spend whatever it takes to make a product right the first time. we are sick of waiting for "the move" to be complete. stop blaming the move. hire the right people NOW! get the machines you need NOW! get you vendors in line NOW.
if you don't start doing the right thing now msar will not have a tomorrow. you made a quaility product in the past you should be able to do it again. if not stick with knives!
i own two stg's and sold my e4 right after i bought it and it had FTF's, bold wouldn't lock back and last but not least the mags didn't work.

i know there are fanboys here of msar and that's great. but now is the time to force them to make thjings right. if the parts in ther rifle are defective they sure as hell better pay to ship the rifle back and forth. it's the right thing to do.

Posted: 10/19/2010 7:42:29 PM EDT

[#36]

This is the machine work he is talking about.

Posted: 10/19/2010 7:46:09 PM EDT

[#37]

Pics are kinda small, but damn! Is the trunnion deformed too???

Posted: 10/19/2010 7:50:51 PM EDT

[#38]

oops. fixed.

Posted: 10/19/2010 8:11:57 PM EDT

[#39]

Holy shit! Looks like your trunnion isn't hardened either! No machine work in the world will fix that problem, short of making a new trunnion. STOP SHOOTING IT!

This is inexcusable.

I would call MSAR, DEMAND that they replace the trunnion, and AT LEAST cover the shipping both ways.
Makes me wonder what the hell else has been going on there in the past year, although I can't say I'm surprised.

Posted: 10/19/2010 9:33:54 PM EDT

[#40]

The indentations ARE NOT from peening. This was machine work that MSAR did on mine a month ago or so. I'm assuming it's what is going to be done to the other guys here who are having "trunnion issues."

Posted: 10/19/2010 10:55:32 PM EDT

[#41]

My gen 3 STG is looking better and better everyday compared to the gen 4's and E-4s. My rifle has been perfect and shows no unusual wear at all.

Posted: 10/20/2010 2:08:25 AM EDT

[#42]

Ah, I see now. My bad, cell phone screen kinda made it look like damage.
Huh. I'd be interested to see which part is out of spec. Can't tell without measuring and a print though...
Funny, looks like the feed ramp is part of the casting now instead of being machined in

Posted: 10/20/2010 5:15:08 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
This is the machine work he is talking about.

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/db_17_85/43630015.jpg

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/db_17_85/43630011.jpg

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/db_17_85/43630010.jpg

Did they replace the bolt sleeve on your rifle as well? Also, forgive my ignorance, but by machining a portion of the trunion surface away, are they exposing softer metal inside, or us the trunion hardened all the way through?

Posted: 10/20/2010 5:17:01 AM EDT

[#44]

Damn... I would demand a prepaid return shipping label from MSAR. Weak bolt area parts are a safety/liability issue.

Posted: 10/20/2010 5:29:41 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
This is the machine work he is talking about.

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/db_17_85/43630015.jpg

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/db_17_85/43630011.jpg

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/db_17_85/43630010.jpg

That feed ramp is not machined. Unless somebody provides proof against my "beliefs" MSAR is done.
I could not imagine turning out this kind of product and expect to sell more or stay in business.
How can one small company afford to take care of all these problems? Imagine what it would cost
to move, hire and re-train all the people. The skilled talent of machinists is what makes a good machine shop.
MSAR destroyed the dealer trust "at least around here" by blowing out their inventory to Ratworx and screwing
all the dealers with their STG's still on the shelves.
Nobody put a gun to my head and made me buy their product and thank god no fanboys around here talked me
into one. I posted a big rant on the industry form when Dave left "and got flamed". But I have not made a purchase
that has given me the sick to my stomach feeling of being screwed like those MSAR's I bought. I can't even look
at them anymore.

Posted: 10/20/2010 5:57:47 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
This is the machine work he is talking about.

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/db_17_85/43630015.jpg

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/db_17_85/43630011.jpg

http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z460/db_17_85/43630010.jpg

That is unacceptable and does not fix the problem. I'm going to call Jeff at MSAR again and make sure what it is they are going to machine on my rifle. If he is going to do that, I will not send it to them. I want it fixed from the source not fix something else to work with the problem... WTF are they thinking?

Posted: 10/20/2010 6:16:07 AM EDT

[#47]

If the trunion is out of spec at that contact point, it seems that replacing or machining into spec might be the only option. See if you can find out which is the problem: (a) bolt sleeve that was not heat treated or (b) trunion that is out of spec.

Posted: 10/20/2010 6:23:26 AM EDT

[#48]

UPDATE:
Paul called me to give me a RMA# and we talked about the issue. Paul said that it would be incredibly hard for something to leave not being heat treated and said that the problem is that the Trunion is out of spec and is basically not flat causing the bolt sleeve to slam into it. He said that they should/will replace the entire trunion and sleeve and I'll be back to 100%. I said I will not accept that BS dremel job on the trunion lugs... I'm gonna send mine out tomorrow so we'll see. As for them covering shipping costs that ain't happening.

Posted: 10/20/2010 6:27:50 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
My gen 3 STG is looking better and better everyday compared to the gen 4's and E-4s. My rifle has been perfect and shows no unusual wear at all.

This is not a Gen4/E4 issue, it's a latest production run issue. I have two early E4s, E4 marked receivers, 1/2x28 barrels, machined feed ramps, no peening after hundreds of rounds...

I would not be a happy camper AT ALL if my E4s looked like this.

Posted: 10/20/2010 7:17:36 AM EDT

[#50]

This thread got me checking my bolt sleeve. After nearly 3k rounds, the fingers on the bolt sleeve look like the OP's, just on a way smaller scale. My question is this: since the fingers on the bolt sleeve are impacting the lugs on the trunnion every time a round is fired, wouldn't this kind of wear be normal? I would think with two hard surfaces repeatedly impacting, one would have to wear down or deform a little. I know from reading the entire thread that this is not normal, but why? After all those rounds, I've never had a problem with the rifle, so is it something I should be concerned about?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - First range trip with the E4 and a question...*NEW updatew/pics* (Page 1 of 3)

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