I like M11's -- they are a hoot to shoot, and the cheapest way to full-auto. But the QC of factory parts and components is miles below that of an Uzi or M16. I swear the Cobray parts musta been pounded outa old nails and rusty rails by trolls living under bridges. I hope your new toy is reliable; if not, just buy quality aftermarket upgrades, and don't look back.

Originally Posted By anr6t: Are you refering to small upgraded internals and FCG parts, or add ons like the Lage/Stoney Creek uppers? Can you point another soon to be M11 owner in the direction of quality aftermarket upgrades?

The weak points are bolts, sears, disconnectors, and to a lesser degree small parts like knobs, pins and springs.

The reason there are so many transferable M11/9's is that when the manufacturing ban surfaced in Congress, Cobray started cranking them out 24/7 to make as many as possible before the May 19, 1986 cutoff. There are about 30k in the Registry, and IIRC at least half of those were built in the last eight weeks.

Cobray did not have nearly enough parts in hand, so they put a rush order through subcontractors ... and got a lot of subpar quality components -- pretty much everything except the welded receiver itself, the magwells, upper-receiver housings. Remember, it was a $150 retail gun at the time and normal (non-rush) quality wasn't that high; add in sub-Q parts and you can see the potential for problems.

You can tell when yours was made by the serial number -- the first two numbers are the year of production, so the following applies to "86-" SN M11's:

--First, check the welds on the rear of your receiver, where the flat is folded up and welded on the sides. A significant number (maybe 5-10%) of "rush" guns had poor welds. Check used guns for cracks, and keep an eye on NIB examples when you first shoot them. Cracks are easy to fix if noticed asap; if ignored, the rear can bend or even let go. Usually if the first 500 rounds are fine, your welds will hold forever. (Just never, ever fire an M11 with an age-deteriorated buffer, or no buffer at all.)

--Bolts and sears made in the rush were not sufficiently hardened. Some of the '86 M11s had old-stock, correctly hardened components; as many as half did not. They were drawn out of inventory at random, so you can't judge by the SN. Soft metal will wear away fast, and after as little as a coupla hundred rounds you can have runaways -- you get a mag dump every time you touch the trigger. It's best just to keep it aimed downrange and let it run out, but it can be intimidating to a newbie (I let a friend's wife shoot my M11 as her first full-auto experience, and she had a runaway the first time she pulled the trigger. "Was it supposed to do that?" she asked.)

The problem is that a lot of those 1986-rush soft-metal bolts are still in inventory today, so a factory replacement bolt purchased today may go bad just as fast. I finally took all my "rounded" bolts to my machining genius, who rewelded them, recut the notches, and once fixed they have never worn again. I can't recall what metal he used, offhand, but if someone needs to know I'll ask him.

Sears are the same -- soft metal that rounds off, allowing runaways. I've got a whole bag of worn-out examples of 'em. Some of the improved aftermarket ones are supposed to be better, but I don't have enough experience to recommend anyone. IMHO, it'd be worth having a good welder redo these as well.

--Disconnectors are stamped steel, and many are so out-of-spec that they bounce into the "stop" position while firing, and turn full-auto into an unplanned burst-only SMG. The easiest thing to do is just pull them out -- an M11 will run fine without 'em, you'll just have safe/FA with no semi function. Who shoots an M11 in semi anyway? I don't know of anyone making improved disconnectors.

--Factory top-cockers like to break the cocking knob and bounce it off your forehead at 1,000 rpm. Again, it's a combo of soft metal and poor machining tolerances. Personally, I will not shoot a M11 without a sidecock upper of some sort.

--Keep an eye on misc pins and springs. Fer instance, the retaining pin that holds in the stock catch likes to break, which will allow your stock to slide out and fall off the gun. It won't happen while you are shooting -- the recoil keeps it in -- but it gets embarrassing to have your $3k toy fall apart when you are showing it to friends. Some of the aftermarket stocks do not use the factory catch, so I vote for those as a better alternative.

Now, the odds are against all of the above happening to a single M11/9. But each is common enough that they are worth anticipating if you own one.

As far as aftermarket parts ...

I have heard nothing but praise for Lage products from shooters whose opinions and experience I highly respect, so I would recommend anything Richard makes. For stuff he doesn't make ... well, you prolly won't have a problem, and if you do, there is little that can't be fixed in minutes by a talented welder, if you keep the above in mind.

Modified M11's are winning subgun matches everywhere these days -- they have incredible potential. Just remember that they are product-improved examples, like race cars, and the winning shooters train like race-car drivers. Don't expect to run a box-stock M11/9 against them and win, or even finish the race.

Flame suit on....

Originally Posted By anr6t: The one I have on the way is an 85-something-I-cant-recall .  While I realise that you've stated its important to check for the following problems regardless of they year, does the fact that it wasn't a "rush" gun mean that they are SIGNIFICANTLY less likely? Some of the weaknesses are due to the inexpensive design and manufacture, but YES, the '85 guns I've seen were much less trouble-prone than the '86's. Out of curiousity, is there any way to date the gun by the rest of the SN? I don't know of anyone with that data. Why never fire it with a buffer - the receiver will bend? It will bend, or break the rear clear away from the receiver. I bought a used gun - is/was it a common practice to fire them without buffers?  Should I be concerned about abuse from the previous owner? The original buffers installed in 1986 have all deteriorated with age. If someone buys a new one and shoots it with that buffer, it's like shooting with no buffer at all. So yes, if you buy used, you should check the welds and the rear inside of the receiver for signs of battering. Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but the registered part is the receiver? Yup. So if one is not friends with a welder genius type character, they could just purchase a new bolt/sear and drop it in? Yup. Though if you have an '85 gun, the new replacements may be worse than the one you're taking out. Any need for some type of headspacing? Nope. It headspaces on the cartridge itself. I started another thread about replacing the factory stock - so far the choices I've seen have been the Lage fixed/sidefolder, the mini Uzi sidefolder conversion, and the Stoney Creek sidefolder.  I also understand there is an Ares underfolder conversion out there, but havent been able to find an image of that. Can you chime in about any experiences you may have had with these? I bought an ARES underfolder when they came out in 2001 or so, and liked it a lot. I don't have any firsthand experience with the others, but again, I've been very impressed with Richard Lage's and Practical Sam's products. I haven't seen a Stoney Creek, so I can't speak to it. As you stated earlier, I've heard nothing but praise about ALL the Lage products, and I'm leaning that way, but in the other thread the Uzi conversion was highly recommended. AFAIK, the Uzi conversion will not work on an M11/9 -- it is designed for M10's only. That's because Uzi mags are double-feed like the M10, but the M11 bolt is machined for use with single-feed mags like Zytels and STEn mags. I do not know of anyone who is re-machining M11 bolts for use with Uzi mags. Once again, thanks for your time no problemo!, and I hope captainpooby doesnt mind the thread hijack too much

Originally Posted By anr6t: Any images of your ARES underfolder?  Or where one could purchase one?  The ARES site isnt much help.

ARES only did one large production run long ago ('98? '99? 00? Somewhere in there). They weren't cheap -- about $200 each -- but they were the only aftermarket stock available back then. I don't know anyone who still has them in stock, but they show up on the boards now and then.

Here are pix of it, open and closed:

On rereading my sorta harsh posts above ... I need to repeat that M11/9's are great SMGs. You do need to have buffers and spare parts on hand, and watch for wear. But I'm not trying to scare anyone off, just make them aware of the flaws.

I'll admit that I'm biased by my experience with Uzis, particularly Vectors, which seem to be able to run for years and tens of k's of rounds with out a single FTF, FTE or even one part breaking; they'll even run without any cleaning beyond wiping off the crud. So that's what I think of when I hear the term "reliable" applied to MGs.

IMHO, beyond the Uzi exception, no transferable MG is plug-and-play. M11/9's are half the cost, upgrades make 'em competitive with anything out there, parts are cheap and everywhere, and they are easier to work on than semi ARs. Keep the potential problems (and neccesary spare parts) I listed above in mind and you'll find an M11 is still the most fun you can have with your pants on.

Originally Posted By anr6t: Approximately how often does one need to change the buffer, in terms of round count, or elapsed time? Tony, got any pictures of what a "bad", or worn out buffer looks like, so us newbies know what to watch out for?

Sorry, I don't have photos.

Some tips:

--Factory buffers are black with a matte surface, and a rubber appearance. With age (20 years sitting installed in an NIB gun) they deteriorate inside -- they still look "new" but will literally crumble into particles with the first bolt impact. Even new replacements don't last long -- they generally will last up to 800 or 1k rounds; with hot ammo and a suppressor, they may start to split, deform or break apart after as little as 400-500 rounds.

--Most aftermarket buffers are made of one of two plastic-appearing materials, a softer translucent (usually yellowish) in several different thicknesses or an opaque bright red that is harder. I've never seen one of these crumble; instead, they start to show impact marks from the bolt, and eventually will start to thin out from continued compression. I've seen them split but never crumble. I would expect them to last a loooong time in a slow-fire M11; even in a suppressed standard-upper with hot ammo they should be fine for 2k-3k.

--There's also the MacJack, a honkin' big block of hard white plastic. On a suppressed M11/9 they can get your ROF up to 2,000 rpm, but I've never seen one deform or break -- the material is too hard to wear out.

Remember, the function of a buffer it to keep it from hitting the metal rear of the receiver. It's a $5-$10 part to save you a trip to the welder, or worse. Buy a bunch and when in doubt, throw it out.

HTH.

Originally Posted By anr6t: Originally Posted By tony_k: --There's also the MacJack, a honkin' big block of hard white plastic. On a suppressed M11/9 they can get your ROF up to 2,000 rpm, but I've never seen one deform or break -- the material is too hard to wear out. Does ramping up the ROF so high cause any additional wear on the other parts?  That sounds fun... PS:  Heres 1 vote for turning all this good info into a tacked MAC FAQ.  This is/was incredibly helpful.

Shooting suppressed with warm ammo, my MacJacked M11 would empty a 50-round Lanchester mag in 1.5 seconds.

If your M11 has any of the soft-metal or weak-weld issues ... well, they will surface a []lot faster with a MacJack. Otherwise, the amount of wear is more closely related to round count than speed.

BTW, Tactical Innovations (see above buffer link) makes the original MacJack; $22.49.

Originally Posted By anr6t: So whats the deal with ammo selection for a M11 - I read on some board that its unwise to shoot +P, +P+ or that super +P+ IMI ammo as it will also unpleasantly wear on the parts. Will higher pressure ammo adversely wear on my mac?   Also, I read that HP ammo essentially wont feed - that tend to be true? Anyone make a beta(or larger then a Suomi drum) mag that'll fit a Mac yet, or is that a DIY project

I would not shoot +P or +P+ ammo in an M11/9. They are designed for the standard 9mm round, a relatively low pressure round by today's standards -- it was developed in 1902. +P and +P+ rounds can develop 25-30+% more chamber pressure than the original 9mm loading. Next, check the diameter of an M11/'s barrel around the chamber, and remember that it was designed for a gun that retailed for $150, with a production cost to Cobray of less than $50 per complete gun. Also remember what I said above about production standards. In other words ... putting high-pressure loads in an M11 is like pulling the pin on a grenade, then holding it up near your face.

re: HP ammo -- The M11, like all subguns, was designed as a military weapon for use with ball ammo. Hollowpoints never feed as well as round nose in any firearm from a purely functional viewpoint; that's doubly true for a military design. Given the higher cost of HP ammo, why worry about whether your M11/9 feeds it anyway?

re: large-cap mags -- I like STEn conversions because you can use 50-round Lanchester mags. If you use STEn or non-STEn metal mags, it's easy weld a couple together to get a 55-60 round mag. I've seen Suomi drum conversions that run with varying degrees of reliability. There also are Beta-mag adapters out there. I have no experience with drums with my M11 so I can't speak to them; 50-round Lanchesters do run well IMHO, as do some of the weld-two-into-one metal mags conversions. Bustoff over at subguns.com and Uzitalk.com has a good rep for such welding projects, or you can do it yourself.

Originally Posted By mjm: I posted two different posts cause they address different needs. Now that I have my M-11/9 running 100%, it decided to give me different grief.  Now it is running away, and the bolt and sear appear to have worn.  Can someone post a pic or 2 showing a new, or near new, bolt and sear?  Specifically the areas where they contact?  I am thinking of having at least the bolt welded up and that area hardened, but I do not know how much mine has worn down. Thanks!

I don't have pix, but these are not precision instruments -- you shouldn't need dimensions. The contact points on both the sear and bolt are straight angles, and they round off at the points. So you can just look at the base of the notch and weld it up until it makes a square angle. My guy used mild steel welding rod, 307s (er70ws), then filed to shape. We held off on hardening to see how it would last, and it never rounded off again, so I'm not sure hardening is really neccessary.

Originally Posted By anr6t: 2-08-07....APPROVED! The wait for the forms to get back to my dealer is infinitely longer then the wait for the ATF to approve them.   Pics coming!

Congrats! Now start/keep buying mags and ammo -- no matter how much you have, you'll need triple that!