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Posted: 10/30/2009 7:38:36 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I know I need to keep a copy of the approved form 4's with stamp with me! You are not required by law to have any paperwork with the NFA weapons, but having a copy of the form1/4 will probably keep you out of jail if you come across a stupid cop. Nothing else is needed. |
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Posted: 10/30/2009 8:28:16 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
You are not required by law to have any paperwork with the NFA weapons, but having a copy of the form1/4 will probably keep you out of jail if you come across a stupid cop. Possession of machineguns, silencers, short barreled rifles, etc. is prohibited in most jurisdictions. Having one of those items that is lawfully registered in the National Firearms Act Registry is an exception (or affirmative defense) that permits one to have such items. I would hardly say a police officer would be "a stupid cop" to expect someone to be able to demonstrate that the machinegun, silencer, short barreled rifle, etc. that they are in possession of is legal. (You sound like Obama when he said the Cambridge police "acted stupidly.") They cannot be expected to simply take your word that the machinegun or silencer that you have is legal, and just let you walk away from a possible felony. It's not very difficult to carry a copy of your Form 4 (Form 1, etc.) with you and the NFA item in the very rare event that you come into contact with law enforcement. That is what 99.9% of the people who lawfully own NFA items do. Imagine the liability that their agency would face if the officer encountered someone with a machinegun or silencer; made contact with them; did absolutely nothing to verify the lawfulness of the possession other than have them verbally say that it is legal; let the subject leave with the machinegun or silencer; and then the subject committed a crime (murder, aggravated assault, etc.) with an unregistered machinegun, silencer, etc., a short time later. |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 9:05:09 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
You are not required by law to have any paperwork with the NFA weapons, but having a copy of the form1/4 will probably keep you out of jail if you come across a stupid cop. Possession of machineguns, silencers, short barreled rifles, etc. is prohibited in most jurisdictions. Having one of those items that is lawfully registered in the National Firearms Act Registry is an exception (or affirmative defense) that permits one to have such items. I would hardly say a police officer would be "a stupid cop" to expect someone to be able to demonstrate that the machinegun, silencer, short barreled rifle, etc. that they are in possession of is legal. (You sound like Obama when he said the Cambridge police "acted stupidly.") They cannot be expected to simply take your word that the machinegun or silencer that you have is legal, and just let you walk away from a possible felony. It's not very difficult to carry a copy of your Form 4 (Form 1, etc.) with you and the NFA item in the very rare event that you come into contact with law enforcement. That is what 99.9% of the people who lawfully own NFA items do. Imagine the liability that their agency would face if the officer encountered someone with a machinegun or silencer; made contact with them; did absolutely nothing to verify the lawfulness of the possession other than have them verbally say that it is legal; let the subject leave with the machinegun or silencer; and then the subject committed a crime (murder, aggravated assault, etc.) with an unregistered machinegun, silencer, etc., a short time later. The problem here is that the NFA paperwork contains paid tax stamps ... hence confidential tax information. If you look at the paperwork on the back side at the very bottom it says: Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrant's proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request. Note it does NOT say that you must show your paperwork to a cop from Podunk City USA. Do as you will .. show or don't show .. but its not required unless they are ATF. |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 9:38:16 AM EDT
[#4]
I don't understand the "Its a confidential tax document, i dont have to show you anything!" idea.
This isn't a copy of your income tax. Unless I'm missing something, its nothing more than a receipt for a 200$ purchase. If you encounter law enforcement and display your forms, what are they going to find out that they wouldn't find out anyway? If they know you registered it, they know you paid 200$ anyway. It doesn't tell them your yearly income, or how much you paid in child support, or how much you donated to the presidential campaign fund. Are people worried about the personal information thats on the form? Everything thats on a Form 1 is information the police have access to anyway. They're going to get your name and address from your drivers license, theyre going to get the s/n and information you listed about your NFA item just by looking at the NFA item itself. My two cents: If the police ask you about it. Show them the form and don't be a prick. Like others have said, you dont have to show them, but its going to be less of a hassle if you do. |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 10:42:32 AM EDT
[#5]
A lot of states have a law where title II guns are only legal if the gun is federally registered. So if a state or local cop stops you and wants to see your form 1/4, then you have two options:
1) show him the form right there. 2) be arrested, taken to jail and wait however long it takes for them to contact the ATF and verify that the gun is registered to you. Which choice is a better decision is left up to you I guess, but I know which one I'd do. |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 11:10:27 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You are not required by law to have any paperwork with the NFA weapons, but having a copy of the form1/4 will probably keep you out of jail if you come across a stupid cop. Possession of machineguns, silencers, short barreled rifles, etc. is prohibited in most jurisdictions. Having one of those items that is lawfully registered in the National Firearms Act Registry is an exception (or affirmative defense) that permits one to have such items. I would hardly say a police officer would be "a stupid cop" to expect someone to be able to demonstrate that the machinegun, silencer, short barreled rifle, etc. that they are in possession of is legal. (You sound like Obama when he said the Cambridge police "acted stupidly.") They cannot be expected to simply take your word that the machinegun or silencer that you have is legal, and just let you walk away from a possible felony. It's not very difficult to carry a copy of your Form 4 (Form 1, etc.) with you and the NFA item in the very rare event that you come into contact with law enforcement. That is what 99.9% of the people who lawfully own NFA items do. Imagine the liability that their agency would face if the officer encountered someone with a machinegun or silencer; made contact with them; did absolutely nothing to verify the lawfulness of the possession other than have them verbally say that it is legal; let the subject leave with the machinegun or silencer; and then the subject committed a crime (murder, aggravated assault, etc.) with an unregistered machinegun, silencer, etc., a short time later. The problem here is that the NFA paperwork contains paid tax stamps ... hence confidential tax information. If you look at the paperwork on the back side at the very bottom it says: Proof of Registration: This approved application is the registrant's proof of registration and it shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request. Note it does NOT say that you must show your paperwork to a cop from Podunk City USA. Do as you will .. show or don't show .. but its not required unless they are ATF. In many jurisdictions, state/local legality is contigent on federal legality. So, haveing that paperwork with you would be the easyway out of a potential state felony arrest. That is definetely a better option than having your guns siezed, getting hauled in, fingerprinted, photographed, stuck in a cage with the type of folks you would rather not know, paying money to a bondsman to get you out (assuming you are offered bail, and that you/ yours can afford/ want to pay the 10%) seeing a judge (possibly multiple times), and more likely than not ultimately giving up a copy of your registration in hopes that the judge will dismiss the case/DA will decline to prosecute/ jury will vote to acquit. |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 11:28:42 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
A lot of states have a law where title II guns are only legal if the gun is federally registered. So if a state or local cop stops you and wants to see your form 1/4, then you have two options: 1) show him the form right there. 2) be arrested, taken to jail and wait however long it takes for them to contact the ATF and verify that the gun is registered to you. Which choice is a better decision is left up to you I guess, but I know which one I'd do. I'm with you. 
BTW, there is a third option: 3) LE lets you walk "for now" but seizes your NFA items until legal registration can be proven. This usually results in your prize toys rolling around in the trunk of a squad car, or rusting in a damp property room, until someone gets around to calling BATFE. 
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Posted: 10/31/2009 12:21:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Obviously if i'm seen with a supressor I need to be interogated as to the validity and legality of the innocent supressor. But everytime I drive my 2 ton sports car at 80 mph down the road I don't even get challenged to prove the legality of the ownership of the expensive ( and illegal to own/operate without paperwork) item. So selective in their reasoning the police are...
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Posted: 10/31/2009 2:25:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Obviously if i'm seen with a supressor I need to be interogated as to the validity and legality of the innocent supressor. But everytime I drive my 2 ton sports car at 80 mph down the road I don't even get challenged to prove the legality of the ownership of the expensive ( and illegal to own/operate without paperwork) item. So selective in their reasoning the police are... You do have a valid point there, but if you take the percentage of the US population that owns a 2 ton sports car you get a very large percentage, or the percent that own an NFA item you get a very small number. |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 3:35:48 PM EDT
[#10]
you guys are missing my point .. the info is not required to be disclosed to NON-ATF personell. Granted I DO NOT live in a state that has contingency laws (legal only if federally registered) so I'm not all up on that .. but I have told LE (cop was a beligerant ass) to indeed FUCK OFF .. that he could not legally see my registration, if he wanted to verify the validity to contact ATF and I would happily speak with them .. and the he could again POUND SAND.
I never got so much as arrested or my property seized. I DO NOT recommend this plan of action for anyone to follow .. but if the circumstances are right .. and you know you are right .. you own NFA .. you can make your own call. |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 3:40:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
you guys are missing my point .. the info is not required to be disclosed to NON-ATF personell. Granted I DO NOT live in a state that has contingency laws (legal only if federally registered) so I'm not all up on that .. but I have told LE (cop was a beligerant ass) to indeed FUCK OFF .. that he could not legally see my registration, if he wanted to verify the validity to contact ATF and I would happily speak with them .. and the he could again POUND SAND. I never got so much as arrested or my property seized. I DO NOT recommend this plan of action for anyone to follow .. but if the circumstances are right .. and you know you are right .. you own NFA .. you can make your own call. We all do get your point about tax documents and such. But if it's as simple as showing the LEO the form1/4, to avoid all the possible drama, it's worth it in my opinion. |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 3:42:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Don't be a dick, and just show them your paperwork, It contains no info that they cannot get by running your license plate. Like Tony said, if you do not prove it's legality the cop has a right, and duty to detain you, or your weapon until it's legal status can be proven, and if your a ass about it, and I was the cop, it would take a long time to prove it's legality.
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Posted: 10/31/2009 3:46:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Thats why they ask for license, registration and proof of insurance whenever you're stopped.
Obviously if i'm seen with a supressor I need to be interogated as to the validity and legality of the innocent supressor. But everytime I drive my 2 ton sports car at 80 mph down the road I don't even get challenged to prove the legality of the ownership of the expensive ( and illegal to own/operate without paperwork) item. So selective in their reasoning the police are... Kharn |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 4:10:21 PM EDT
[#14]
you dont need to keep anything with you. Its just a good way to avoid any potential hassle.
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Posted: 10/31/2009 5:19:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Don't be a dick, and just show them your paperwork, It contains no info that they cannot get by running your license plate. Like Tony said, if you do not prove it's legality the cop has a right, and duty to detain you, or your weapon until it's legal status can be proven, and if your a ass about it, and I was the cop, it would take a long time to prove it's legality. GOOD thing your are not an LEO!  Cause I'd have a serious false arrest lawsuit already filed!
and if they could prove NFA registration by running your license plates .. why show papers? 
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Posted: 10/31/2009 5:22:23 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't be a dick, and just show them your paperwork, It contains no info that they cannot get by running your license plate. Like Tony said, if you do not prove it's legality the cop has a right, and duty to detain you, or your weapon until it's legal status can be proven, and if your a ass about it, and I was the cop, it would take a long time to prove it's legality. GOOD thing your are not an LEO! Cause I'd have a serious false arrest lawsuit already filed!
and if they could prove NFA registration by running your license plates .. why show papers? Nobody said arrest. He said 'detain'. Which, to my knowledge, is perfectly legal until the legitimacy of the NFA item can be verified. |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 6:26:45 PM EDT
[#17]
XEROX copies in a binder in cabin of automobile... I now have scanned copies of my ATF 5320.1, ATF 5320.4, and ATF 5320.20 on a USB thumb drive now I carry with me ...
I have never been approached by LE or ATF wanting to see papers while at ranges or private property,,, and I have tried to roust the game warden that lives just over top of hill from brother in-law |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 7:01:46 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't be a dick, and just show them your paperwork, It contains no info that they cannot get by running your license plate. Like Tony said, if you do not prove it's legality the cop has a right, and duty to detain you, or your weapon until it's legal status can be proven, and if your a ass about it, and I was the cop, it would take a long time to prove it's legality. GOOD thing your are not an LEO! Cause I'd have a serious false arrest lawsuit already filed!
and if they could prove NFA registration by running your license plates .. why show papers? If an LE officer finds you in possession of something which by law is prohibited to ordinary citizens –– be it an NFA item, narcotics, nuclear weapons –– and you refuse to provide any evidence that it is legally possessed, they have a legal right to detain you and/or confiscate the items. There is no basis for a false arrest lawsuit when an officer is acting lawfully. |
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Posted: 10/31/2009 9:08:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Thats why they ask for license, registration and proof of insurance whenever you're stopped. Kharn My current, valid state-issued license plates are proof of my vehicle's registration and I am not required to carry anything more than that in my state. |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 6:05:49 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thats why they ask for license, registration and proof of insurance whenever you're stopped. Kharn My current, valid state-issued license plates are proof of my vehicle's registration and I am not required to carry anything more than that in my state. Ohio Dept Of Natural Resources Watercraft Division states specifically in the ORC that you "must carry" the original registration document in the watercraft for inspection if stopped... they were not thrilled with the XEROX of the stickers and registration I made of the works as a set before attaching sticker to hull... wife got stopped recently, we had to go to ODNR office and get replacement registration card. |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 2:47:11 PM EDT
[#21]
I say carry the paperwork like 99.99 percent of the people. Why cause a problem with the officer, your just asking for trouble. "I am only required to show it to the ATF" would be an ok sit your ass in the cell for the weekend till the atf comes in on monday. What is the logic in not showing them the form and avioding the situation. The officer that let idiot who told him to pound sand could get himself in trouble for doing so. Why do you think they don't wanna run a sn for someone without the gun in hand. if it comes back stolen they had better have a gun to turn in
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Posted: 11/1/2009 5:18:30 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: It's not very difficult to carry a copy of your Form 4 (Form 1, etc.) with you and the NFA item in the very rare event that you come into contact with law enforcement. That is what 99.9% of the people who lawfully own NFA items do. Woot!!! I'm that 0.1%!!!!! Quoted: I say carry the paperwork like 99.99 percent of the people. Nope, make that 0.01%!!!! I am special!!   Quoted: If an LE officer finds you in possession of something which by law is prohibited to ordinary citizens –– be it an NFA item, narcotics, nuclear weapons –– and you refuse to provide any evidence that it is legally possessed, they have a legal right to detain you and/or confiscate the items. There is no basis for a false arrest lawsuit when an officer is acting lawfully. Burden of proof is on the accuser. Where do you guys get that you are going to jail if you don't have NFA paperwork and a cop will just arrest and toss you in jail till you want to cooperate. I guess ignorance of the law is only aplicable to the citizenry? I don't carry it, been questioned, even let the po-po shoot them sometimes. Hell I've been in other states where the po-po showed up. I could show them paperwork, but most wouldn't know what the hell they were looking at. Attitude. Goes a long way. |
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Posted: 11/1/2009 5:37:27 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's not very difficult to carry a copy of your Form 4 (Form 1, etc.) with you and the NFA item in the very rare event that you come into contact with law enforcement. That is what 99.9% of the people who lawfully own NFA items do. Woot!!! I'm that 0.1%!!!!! Quoted:
I say carry the paperwork like 99.99 percent of the people. Nope, make that 0.01%!!!! I am special!!
Quoted:
Ifan LE officer finds you in possession of something which by law isprohibited to ordinary citizens –– be it an NFA item, narcotics,nuclear weapons –– and you refuse to provide any evidence that it islegally possessed, they have a legal right to detain you and/orconfiscate the items. There is no basis for a false arrest lawsuit whenan officer is acting lawfully. Burden of proof is on the accuser. Where do you guys get that you are going to jail if you don't have NFA paperwork and a cop will just arrest and toss you in jail till you want to cooperate. I guess ignorance of the law is only aplicable to the citizenry? I don't carry it, been questioned, even let the po-po shoot them sometimes. Hell I've been in other states where the po-po showed up. I could show them paperwork, but most wouldn't know what the hell they were looking at. Attitude. Goes a long way.
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Posted: 11/1/2009 5:48:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ifan LE officer finds you in possession of something which by law isprohibited to ordinary citizens –– be it an NFA item, narcotics,nuclear weapons –– and you refuse to provide any evidence that it islegally possessed, they have a legal right to detain you and/orconfiscate the items. There is no basis for a false arrest lawsuit whenan officer is acting lawfully. Burden of proof is on the accuser. Where do you guys get that you are going to jail if you don't have NFA paperwork and a cop will just arrest and toss you in jail till you want to cooperate. I guess ignorance of the law is only aplicable to the citizenry? I don't carry it, been questioned, even let the po-po shoot them sometimes. Hell I've been in other states where the po-po showed up. I could show them paperwork, but most wouldn't know what the hell they were looking at. Attitude. Goes a long way. I agree about the attitude. Which is exactly what I'm discussing here. And FWIW, I am not talking about arrest, I'm talking about confiscation of your NFA items pending proof of their legality and/or detainment of you for questioning. As far as "burden of proof is on the accuser," that is not true with MGs. Federal law bans all civilian ownership of MGs; proof of registration is an affirmative defense against prosecution, but not against arrest. So the burden of proof is on the defendant. While you may parse that by saying not all NFA items are MGs, under many states' laws the same affirmative defense applies to all NFA items. In each and every interaction with LE, I am polite, cool and confident. I don't get hassled, and rarely even get a ticket for committing infractions that usually result in a summons for, ahem, less polite and confident folks. On the very rare occasion at a range where I'm shooting, say, my suppressed Uzi SMG and an LE officer wanders over, I always respond to any questions with, " Yes, officer, it is legal and registered to me. Would you like to see the paperwork?" None have ever asked to see it. At organized MG shoots where ROs want to inspect your Form 1/4's prior to shooting, I whip out my 100-page binder of forms and paperwork. Their eyes glaze over, they may check one or two, but they never bother to check more than that. But as I said, I am polite, cool and confident, and as a bonus have gray hair, thus I do not fall into a demographic category that they are interested in. OTOH, if I was 18, or 28, reacted to LE confrontationally, and answered simple questions by saying "Yes, it's legal, but by law I don't have to prove it to you" .... well then, in many/most states in the U.S., they would have the legal right to confiscate it until legal ownership could be proven. And potentially detain me without arrest as well. Experienced cops learn how to read people. They recognize the body language of someone who knows the law and knows they are following it, and they generally drop it. But (IMHO) they often confuse righteous indignation with bluster masking criminal intent, and I do my best to avoid appearing to be in either of those categories. The way I lived long enough to get these gray hairs, and to be able to afford MGs, is to not provoke confrontations on every possible occasion. I save my battles for the ones which, to me, matter the most. Those who wish to provoke a confrontation with LE over such issues might do well to look up the definition of a pyrrhic victory. A confrontation over showing a Form 1/4 to LE is not worth it. To me. Your Mileage, of course, May Vary. 
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