ATF Form 1 (5320.1) Questions & Answers

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ATF Form 1 (5320.1) Questions & Answers

Posted: 10/28/2006 4:26:16 PM EDT

On line 4e & 4f
I put 7.5" for barrel length and 23.25" for overall, that is with stock completely closed. (anybody see any problems with this length?)
I was told by my dealer to measure it with stock fully closed.
Also I was told that I did not have to put additional calibers in 4h, it might make things more confusing. "That any other caliber uppers, were not permanent, and I could freely use others".
Problem is I would like to list others, just so it might make things more clear for the law if I should ever get called on it.
I have read where others have and have not listed them in 4h. And were approved just the same. And I believe I read where Dan P. wrote something to the fact add these to line 4h.
I'm kind of confused here.
I'm sorry guys, I read alot & search to try to find my answers. (hence low post count since 2004), look listen & learn, instead of yapping. I'm just a little confused with the multiply info here.
My first form 1 is in the mail as I write.
It had no additional calibers in 4h, 4e was 10.5" & 4f was 29.5"
This will be #2 for me.

Posted: 10/28/2006 4:37:56 PM EDT

[#1]

Your measurements are fine, and the overall with the stock closed is perfect.

Box 4h is really up to you. List other calibers if you feel it will help you out, with your local LE..etc... It definitely will not affect your transfer time if you do add them. You can freely swap between uppers - even if you don't list other calibers on the form. The only thing ATF requests is that you notify the NFA Branch, in writing, of any "permanent" change to the configuration.

Dan Pinckney.

Posted: 10/28/2006 4:55:48 PM EDT

[#2]

I sure like having you hanging around here, Dan

Thank You.

Posted: 10/28/2006 6:48:50 PM EDT

[#3]

the overall with the stock closed is perfect.

I thought the overall length was measured with the stock extended?

Posted: 10/28/2006 6:57:32 PM EDT

[#4]

^if you are going to build an sbr from a pistol and filling out form 1, how would you know the overall length with stock opened if you are not supposed to own the stock before your form 1 is approved?

Posted: 10/28/2006 7:09:01 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

the overall with the stock closed is perfect.

I thought the overall length was measured with the stock extended?

I do believe that ATF recommends measuring it with it fully extended. The most important thing, is that there is not a range listed in that box, although I personally think that putting the range from fully closed, to fully extended, would be the most accurate. Unfortunately, I don't make the rules...!!

If there is one barrel length, and one overall length, it will be just fine.

Dan Pinckney.

Posted: 10/28/2006 7:53:42 PM EDT

[#6]

I do believe that ATF recommends measuring it with it fully extended.

Thanks, scared me there for a minute!

Posted: 10/28/2006 8:00:53 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

I do believe that ATF recommends measuring it with it fully extended.

Thanks, scared me there for a minute!

That's what I get for fooling around on the Internet when I should be asleep...!!!

*** If you are in a state that participates, don't forget to set your clocks back.

Dan Pinckney.

Posted: 10/29/2006 6:07:29 PM EDT

[#8]

Okay now I'm really confused, does not it seem like if you measured the rifle with stock fully opened, when you closed it your rifle would become shorter than what is stated on the form.
I thought you could go longer just not shorter

Posted: 10/29/2006 6:11:03 PM EDT

[#9]

Here's My Form 1 complete "less the Signature" (I hope it is error free)
Hope this helps some one.
Maybe we can get this going as a sticky. Or one similar!
Along with a ATF Form 4 (5329.4) Questions & Answers
Since I see alot of the same Questions Being ask (that I also asked)
Myself I found different answers to my questions, just depended what threads you look in.

This is a TRUST (also this is with stock fully closed measurement) I hope she goes!

Posted: 10/30/2006 3:09:19 PM EDT

[#10]

.

Posted: 10/30/2006 3:36:55 PM EDT

[#11]

.

Posted: 10/30/2006 3:44:11 PM EDT

[#12]

Yeah, OAL of a shoulder-fired firearm is with the stock in the shoulder-fired configuration or fully extended. Measuring with a stock folded or collapsed is like meaasuring it without a stock at all as neither case implies use as a shoulder-fired weapon.

Using a range of measurements might be more accurate, but it's wasteful and can be confusing by putting more information than needed on the Form 1. Keep it simple and give them only and specifically what the Form 1 asks for. More information means more room for error or confusion.

Posted: 10/30/2006 4:48:07 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Yeah, OAL of a shoulder-fired firearm is with the stock in the shoulder-fired configuration or fully extended. Measuring with a stock folded or collapsed is like meaasuring it without a stock at all as neither case implies use as a shoulder-fired weapon.

Using a range of measurements might be more accurate, but it's wasteful and can be confusing by putting more information than needed on the Form 1. Keep it simple and give them only and specifically what the Form 1 asks for. More information means more room for error or confusion.

in post #2, Dan says that the measurement with the stock closed is perfect. I think you might be confusing people when you say the OAL is supposed to be with the stock extended and the a measurement with the stock folded is [invalid] when Dan clearly says it is appropriate. If you a stock on your weapon already, unfold it and take a measurement. If you don't have a stock, take a measurement of what you have now instead of guessing what it might be later.

Most people will not own the stock and will not even have a stock in their possession before they begin manufacturing an SBR from a pistol and will therefore have no idea what the overall length of the weapon with a non-existant stock extended is.

Posted: 10/30/2006 5:41:15 PM EDT

[#14]

My Form 1 Overall Length was with the stock closed. 23.25" per post #2
It was in the post office mailbox Saturday night. before I read what the ATF recommends, post #6, To late to change.
Hope Dan does my paperwork, but I believe it will fly either way.
Still in my mind, it seems like they would want the shortest the rifle would ever be in box 4f.

Posted: 10/30/2006 6:19:39 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

in post #2, Dan says that the measurement with the stock closed is perfect. I think you might be confusing people when you say the OAL is supposed to be with the stock extended and the a measurement with the stock folded is [invalid] when Dan clearly says it is appropriate. If you a stock on your weapon already, unfold it and take a measurement. If you don't have a stock, take a measurement of what you have now instead of guessing what it might be later.

Most people will not own the stock and will not even have a stock in their possession before they begin manufacturing an SBR from a pistol and will therefore have no idea what the overall length of the weapon with a non-existant stock extended is.

I realize Dan said this, however it is not correct. I think he even retracts it a few posts later.

OAL of a rifle or shotgun has ALWAYS been measured with the shoulder stock included, that is to say in the shoulder-fired position. ATF does not "recommend" this, it's the regulation for determining OAL. This is only, and then VERY important in determining if your otherwise Title I firearm (16" barreled rifle or 18" barreled shotgun) is a minimum of 26" OAL. Even with a 16" barrel, a rifle that is less than 26" OAL is an NFA firearm and ATF will decide this based on a meaasurement made with the stock in a shoulder-fired position. This is not such a big deal on a Form 1 as one is already creating an NFA firearm based on barrel length (in the case of an SBR or SBS). OAL becomes irrelevent once the gun is already NFA for another reason.

Granted, if it meets the 26" minimum OAL measuring with the incorrect method with the stock folded or closed, then of course it will be that much more legal using the correct measurement. I say this only to correct the misimpression as it might come up again where this time it's of vital legal importance that the ATF recognized method of measuring OAL be understood. You just don't want to live life in the firearms world thinking such things are based on flexible "recommended" methods when there is an actual and precise legal minimum to be met with an actual and precise method to meaasure it.

Posted: 10/30/2006 6:41:48 PM EDT

[#16]

Slitzer, I have a question regarding your Form 1 submission. Box 4a asks for the "Name and Location of Original Manufacturer of Firearm (Receiver)". Aren't you (Slitzer) the one 'making' the new Title II firearm (in this case, the SBR)? NFA Dan will correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't your info have gone into Box 4a?

Posted: 10/30/2006 6:47:21 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Slitzer, I have a question regarding your Form 1 submission. Box 4a asks for the "Name and Location of Original Manufacturer of Firearm (Receiver)". Aren't you (Slitzer) the one 'making' the new Title II firearm (in this case, the SBR)? NFA Dan will correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't your info have gone into Box 4a?

No, 3b is for the "Maker" of the NFA firearm. 4a is the original manufacturer, in this case Bushmaster.

Posted: 10/30/2006 7:02:13 PM EDT

[#18]

I see. I have submitted over 20+ ATF Form 4 applications, but only a single ATF Form 1 to 'make' a new suppressor, so I was not too familiar with 'making' an SBR or SBS from an existing firearm.

I just read the instructions on the back of the ATF Form 1 application, part 2: Preparation of Application and Payment of Tax. Part h. Serial Numbers and Other Markings. states: "If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm in item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing Serial Number. If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g."

Posted: 10/30/2006 8:01:05 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I see. I have submitted over 20+ ATF Form 4 applications, but only a single ATF Form 1 to 'make' a new suppressor, so I was not too familiar with 'making' an SBR or SBS from an existing firearm.

I just read the instructions on the back of the ATF Form 1 application, part 2: Preparation of Application and Payment of Tax. Part h. Serial Numbers and Other Markings. states: "If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm in item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing Serial Number. If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g."

You got it.

"Applicant" and "Maker" are one and the same. The info in 3b would be repeated in 4a if the firearm applied for were being made from scratch as an NFA firearm and did not already exist.

Posted: 10/30/2006 8:24:29 PM EDT

[#20]

FWIW I recently got my form 1 approved for my 7.5" SBR and used 25.75" as my OAL. I think the main idea is that it is less than 26" when ready to fire. There are so many stock configurations out there, and unless the NFA tech branch has info on every one they wouldn't know what you're building.

Posted: 10/30/2006 9:29:18 PM EDT

[#21]

Slitzer,
I am certain you need the engraving info in 4h.

Posted: 10/31/2006 2:32:25 AM EDT

[#22]

I started this thread because of all the different info I found here, really not knowing what was correct or not,
As for 4h I kind of read it both ways,
So just call me the guinea pig. I will post my results when I get them.
Fingers crossed!!!!!

Also if I plan to do a tac Weld on my stock in the fully closed position "do I now have the correct OAL in box 4h"??

Posted: 10/31/2006 3:23:24 AM EDT

[#23]

If you guys are going to set this post up as a reference for Form 1s, we need to get some of the data corrected in it, mine included.

I was half asleep in my first response (post #2) about the overall length. As it was clearly pointed out by others, it should be measured with the stock *fully extended* - per ATF regulations.

Box 4a should be the original manufacturer information (Colt, Bushmaster..etc...)

There is no requirement, that I can find, to put your marking information in Box 4H, however, that does not exclude you from the requirement to have the firearm engraved with the registered name, city, and state that is listed in Box 3b -as the manufacturer of the NFA weapon.

***Slitzer - you won't have any trouble with your form. Just remember to sign, date it and include your Declaration of Trust. Sorry for not reading clearly the first time around. The only real problem you would run in to with the overall length being less then 26", is if the weapon was not registered as an SBR. Even with a 16"+ barrel, but an overall length less then 26", it would be an SBR by definition.

Dan Pinckney.

Posted: 10/31/2006 6:52:34 AM EDT

[#24]

We already have an SBR FAQ that addresses and answers all these questions: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=22&t=199905

The problem, of course, is that that thread has grown to 24 pages because of all the questions folks have asked. It is in the process of being brewed down into one comprehensive post which will be tacked and locked when it's ready.

Posted: 10/31/2006 7:11:06 AM EDT

[#25]

Thanks Dan and thanks Tony_K

Posted: 11/13/2006 5:57:02 PM EDT

[#26]

OK, I have my Form 1 filled out.

Now I understand I need to also submit with it a Certification of Compliance with 18 U.S. C. 922(g)(5)(B).

Who is the person certifying my citizenship? Just anyone willing to sign the form?

Also, I dont use my first name. What name do I put on my Application? Certification?

Thanks!

Posted: 11/13/2006 7:27:27 PM EDT

[#27]

Now I understand I need to also submit with it a Certification of Compliance with 18 U.S. C. 922(g)(5)(B).

Who is the person certifying my citizenship?

You are certifying yourself.

Also, I dont use my first name. What name do I put on my Application? Certification?

The Certification of Compliance wants your first name, middle initial, and last name (not in that order, however) so that's what I put on my Form 1.

Posted: 11/14/2006 10:21:14 AM EDT

[#28]

Am I making this more complicated than it is?

So I put my name down as the applicant. Then I put my name down as the person certifying the applicant. Then I sign the bottom of the form. Is that correct?

Posted: 11/14/2006 10:32:05 AM EDT

[#29]

1. Newman, Alfred, E. (for an individual)
1. Alfred E. Newman Revocable Living Trust (for a trust)
2. Newman, Alfred, E.
3. United States of America
7. Alfred E. Newman's signature and today's date

Posted: 11/14/2006 11:43:13 AM EDT

[#30]

Thank you!

Looks like the person in charge of the Paperwork Reduction Act missed that form.

Dang Gumint!

Posted: 11/15/2006 12:21:29 PM EDT

[#31]

Do you think for a trust for the citizenship form for box 1 "alfred e. newman trust" or "whatever revocable trust" would do.

I can't get "xxx xxx revocable living trust" to fit in the boxes.

Posted: 11/15/2006 12:27:05 PM EDT

[#32]

Are you filling it out online and printing it, or filling it out by hand?

Posted: 11/15/2006 12:57:12 PM EDT

[#33]

using the pdf and typing in the letters and then printing it out.

Posted: 11/15/2006 1:10:51 PM EDT

[#34]

Which version of Adobe are you using? Is box 3 getting chopped off? Maybe it's a landscape mode vs. portrait mode issue?

Posted: 11/16/2006 4:07:51 AM EDT

[#35]

Acrobat 6.0.5 Pro

Anyway box 1 is 25 boxes. JMS NFA Revocable Living Trust is 30 including spaces. So I just put JMS NFA Revocable Trust in box 1.

Posted: 11/16/2006 4:32:26 AM EDT

[#36]

That's weird. I tried it with Acrobat reader 6.0.1 and 7.0.8. I was able to get over 100 characters into box 1. You can always print out a blank form and fill it out by hand.

Posted: 11/16/2006 4:34:38 AM EDT

[#37]

Well when you look at the form I only see 30 boxes. Did you just start typing or actually tab between the boxes?

Oh wait I may have been looking at an old form. I just went to www.atf.treas.gov/forms/pdfs/f533020.pdf and this one is different. I will use this one.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ATF Form 1 (5320.1) Questions & Answers

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