Traditionally, the buttstock LOP of most mass produced sporting shotguns is in about 14" long. Some brands a little shorter, some brands a little longer. Traditionally, the "correct" LOP for a shotgun was determined but holding the shotgun in the primary hand, placing the buttpad in the crook of the arm, and adjusting the stock length until the trigger finger could easily reach the trigger. 14" happens to be about average for most shooters. This length is fine for wing shooting and other moving aerial targets, using fairly light loads. In trap, the shooter will often use the movement of the shotgun from side to side due to take two or more targets in one string of fire.


The traditional way to find "correct" LOP would say that this stock is too short for this shooter

The wingshooting stance almost exclusively uses a left foot forward stance (for a right handed shooter), with the hips bladed at about a 30-45 degree angle from the target. Not dissimilar from the Weaver stance. This stance is due to the long stock, and the need to be able to reach the forend. Many shooters swear that the shotgun balances better for them with the long stock, which moves the weight of the receiver and barrel forward. This does make the shotgun swing better, which is important for the game of wingshooting.


TexasRifleman firing an AR using the Weaver stance

The problem arises when the shotgun is adapted for social purposes. Generally, human adversaries cannot fly, and therefore only move on two axis, left and right, and nearer and farther. The need to swing the shotgun on a fairly small target that is rapidly moving on three axis is largely eliminated. What is necessary, however, is the need for follow through on targets of fairly large size while firing ammunition that probably has strong recoil, and the need to rapidly and robustly manipulate the slide to get the expended shell out of the chamber and a new shell in.

As the late Jeff Cooper often stated, a shooter can easily adapt to use a too-short stock, but a shooter has difficultly using a stock that is too long. A too long stock (on any type of firearm) puts the weight of the firearm too far forward and takes the shooter off balance. It's easier to hold a 10 pound weight close to the body than at arms length. This becomes even more apparent if the shooter is using body armor.


This stock is too long and the rifle too heavy for this shooter

The Modified Isosceles stance has an advantage over the Weaver stance in the ability to control recoil. This is the reason why almost every competitive shooter these days uses the Mod Iso stance. The Mod Iso stance takes recoil in both arms, and the firearm moves more or less straight back. In the hip and shoulder bladed Weaver stance, recoil is taken in the primary arm, and pushes on the primary side of the body more than the support side. The Weaver stance goes very well with the Hammer, or Double Tap technique, because much more than two or three rounds fired and the body begins to "unwind." For a right handed shooter using the Weaver stance, this means the the firearms begins moving to the right as the arms and firearm try to equalize rearward pressure.


The Mod Iso stance: hips square to target, feet shoulder width apart, knees bent, weight aggressively forward

This is very evident if to the shooter of a machine gun. When firing a machine gun from an unsupported standing stance, the Weaver stance is quickly unwound. Thus, short bursts are necessary to maintain rounds on target, and not off to the right. But, when a machine gun is fired with the hips and shoulders square to the target, recoil pushes pretty much straight back, and longer bursts are more easily kept on target.

Concerning the shotgun, recoil is less constant, but much stronger than a SMG, automatic rifle, or machine gun. But the need to keep the sights on target is just as important.  Shortening the shotgun stock to a more manageable length allows the shooter to maintain a hips square orientation to the target, keeping recoil down, and makes the fore end easier to reach. With recoil moving the shotgun straight back and not to the side, a quick follow up shot is available, and the slide can be robustly manipulated to reload the chamber.

4 Remington Model 870s with varying stock lengths.
Top: Remington Model 870 Express with 14" LOP

2nd from top: Custom Remington 870 Express with buttpad removed for 13" LOP

3rd from top: Custom Remington Model 870 Wingmaster with shortened stock and buttpad removed for 12" LOP

Bottom: Custom Remington Model 870 Wingmaster with Remington factory folding stock shortened to 12" LOP


The following pictures are to illustrate how the different LOPs affect the shooter. Bear in mind that I am 6'4" barefoot, and I have arms to match, so according to traditional wisdom, a 14" LOP is "too long" for me. I prefer a 12.5" LOP for a fighting gun.


14" LOP


14" LOP

The factory length of pull is 14", which is manageable for a tall shooter like myself, as I am 6' 4" with long arms. But note how my support arm is almost straight, and I'm having trouble maintaining my hips square orientation.



13" LOP


13" LOP

This is the factory LOP with the 1" buttpad removed (not recommended for actual firing, just for comparative length purposes). This is better, I can fairly easily reach the fore end, my hips are square, my support elbow is bent enough to allow holding this position for more than just a minute or two, but my support shoulder is a rolled forward a little.



12" LOP


12" LOP

A 12 inch LOP is what I have found best for myself, as I can square my hips, easily reach the fore end, bend my support elbow comfortable, and keep this stance for several minutes without fatigue due to holding the weight of the shotgun.



12" LOP


12" LOP

This is the same 12 inch LOP but with a top folding stock and pistol grip.

Remington Police Catalog, 1992


Factory packaging (not my photo)

The Remington factory top folding stock has gotten a lot of complaints over the years from shooters. The stock is an excellent concept that was carried out quite sturdily. When unfolded the shooter has a full length stock duplicating the factory LOP of 14", and when folded, the shotgun is much more compact, as the pistol grip only adds 3 inches to the OAL of the shotgun. The complaints come from actually firing the folding stock equipped shotgun. The steel stock arms are not comfortable, and recoil drives the stock arms into the cheek. The steel buttpad is hard against the shoulder when firing full powered loads. And the folded stock rattles and makes clunking noises while transporting.











The main problem with the stock for me was it's just so long! Being an active proponent of short stocks for shotguns, and really liking the concept of a folding stock on a shotgun, I starting measuring and drawing plans for the shortening of the stock arms on the Remington factory folding stock. The stock arms and butt plate are made of fairly heavy stamped steel, not plastic, like some aftermarket stocks. So, I spent a morning at work cutting and reshaping the stock arm to give a 12" LOP.


Comparison of factory stock arm length and shortened stock arm







The hardest part of shortening the stock was shaping the pivot point of the butt plate to allow the butt plate to swivel up and down. But because I was able to slowly take metal off and fit the pivot point very carefully, the rattle is gone and the stock folds up quite sturdily. I was not expecting this benefit. And the 2 inches I cut off made a huge difference for me in handling qualities and maneuverability.



But the best part of the shortened stock is that it seems to have cut recoil significantly. Because the weight of the gun is further back, and both my arms can not fully support the shotgun, combined with being able to comfortably use the Mod Iso stance, the shotgun is not comfortable to shoot! Not nearly as nice as a 12" wood stock with nice soft rubber butt pad, but a hell of a lot better than before. I spent all day last week shooting this shotgun and my cheek is still intact. Before, after about the third round fired, I was ready to quit, just because my cheek hurt so much, and my shoulder would get sore after about a box or so of shells.

Very cool writeup!

I like the shortening of the folding stock, looks great.

I have short arms, so a 12"-13" LOP is mandatory for me.

Very nice write-up.  someone did their homework.

Tack

I use an M4 type adjustable stock on my pump. Makes it easy.

nice write up...how bout a sticky?

I never really put much thought to it, but the whole time I was in the Marines I kept the stock on my Benelli on its shortest setting, whether or not I was wearing armor. Very well written post, and I love the pics from above, they were extremely illustrative!

Thank you, sir.

How did I miss this?

Excellent job.

If I may add a recommendation:

The Hogue ShortShot "youth" sized stock at 12.5" LOP is damn near ideal.  They re-shaped the wrist/PG area of the stock to bring the trigger closer to smaller hands, but it works well for wrist comfort when dropping the strong side elbow.  It also has a full recoil pad with a large contact area (as opposed to cut-down factory stocks).

One of the best writeups I've seen on here

well done, too many people don't understand this, Louis Awerbuck opened my eyes on the subject years ago in his class, you have explained it well...

Great post.  This is why I replaced the factory butt stock on the Mossberg Mariner which is my HD shotgun with a Hogue youth stock with a 12" LOP.

That sounds good.  I like the redesign of the pistol grip & everything.  


About the whole stance thing.  

It is true that standing square is better for recoil, & also better if you are wearing plate armor and moving w/o cover.  However, as one veteran said, the best shooting stance is whatever stance you can shoot from while behind cover. With the non adjustable 12" lop, I find that the stock is too short when using a bladed stance.  Like for example, if I was shooting around a corner, I would have a hard time leaning over and shooting around the corner from a Iso type sance?  Or, if I was shooting from behind a light pole, I would want to blade myself as much as possible.  

perhaps, these situations where you have a hard time making a good cheek rest  are time to utilize a laser

Also, if you don't have armor on, it seems that the ISO stance is worse b/c you make a larger target of yourself, whatever that is worth.  What do you  all think?

I am committed to a conventional shaped stock for my mossy w/ Vang safety.  

Short LOP stocks permit moving (you will square up under stress while moving) and shooting.

You should be shooting from behind cover concealment - behind is at least muzzle + 1 foot in most instances. No issue with stance there ( a light pole isn't cover or concealment, unless it's one of those concrete bases in the Wal-Mart parking lot).

Presenting a narrower target that offers a badguy a chance to take out three vital organs with one shot, or a larger target that offers one vital organ per shot.  Which would you choose?



Edit in blue for clarity.

Good Point.  Sounds like it would be best to KISS & just get the 12" fixed stock.  

AimproTactical told me that they can get a special order 13" stock from Hogue too, FYI.  

Very nice write up and great pics!  :thumbsup:
And I have been thinking I was weird for running my rifles/shotguns with short stocks because I use the ModIso stance.  Well, except when busting clays or doves!!  
MMmmm....










doves......
Mmmmm.....Oh uh, yeah,  Nice Job!!




 
 
 
 

Any chance of getting the pics up again?

Photobucket only gives you so much bandwidth per month. So, they'll be back up on Tuesday. Unless someone has a better hosting site.

I'm 6'4" and I've been running a 13" stock now for a year or two. It feels too long for me now. I'm about to get the Hogue ShortStock, which is 12". I've experimented as short as 10".

Tuesday came and went, no pics. Photobucket dropped the ball. Oh well, such is life.
 

Shoot me an IM.  I should be able to take care of you.

Excellent thread, thanks!  It got me thinking about LOP and trying different lengths with my 870, which has an M4-style adjustable stock (Knoxx Specops).  It turns out a 12" LOP is just about perfect for me, as well.  I'm 6'2" FWIW.

Check your IMs.

Thanks.

New photohosting thanks to FMD.

Great choice for a H/D weapon...I have two of these (upstairs and downstairs) with the Choate P/G stock adjusted to a 13" LOP, which works best for me. Gotta stay away from those collapsible stocks, since they have almost no buttpad on the back end and will punish your body and leave bruises and welts.

Great post, very informative, thanks.

Proper stance and a correct fighting LOP help mitigate recoil alot.

This is my fiance's 115 pound best friend, Anna. She's shooting my Remington 870 Express Magnum with the Remington factory top folding stock I modified earlier in this thread. The original 1966 Wingmaster the stock was on I traded to a collector for a late '80s, early '90s Remington Model 870 Express Magnum with older style Scattergun Technologies Trac-Loc sights.

She actually enjoys shooting this steel stocked, no recoil pad, 12 gauge shotgun. She was firing full power 7.5 shot bird loads that had plenty of kick, no reduced recoil, managed recoil, tactical loads here. Although I keep the shotgun stoked with Hornady low recoil 00 or Fed tactical low recoil 00.



Can't explain the stance...


In recoil.


From the hip.


Stock folded from eye level.


Conventional wood stock with rubber recoil pad and 13" LOP in recoil.

12" LOP is short enough for her, as she's 5'9", but the gun is really too muzzle heavy for her girly arms. She fired a whole box of shells through the shotgun with no complaints and no bruises.

Thanks everyone for the helpful info. Yesterday, I cut 3/4" from my factory 870 Express stock for a LOP of 13 1/4" which feels just right for me. I then sanded down the factory recoil pad to fit the stock. After fitting I sanded the stock by hand and am currently refinishing it with hand rubbed oil. My factory stock is a pretty nice piece of walnut so it should turn out nicely.

TR:  Thanks for your work here.  It's a great write-up.

Speedfeed Youth Stock.  That is all.