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Posted: 8/17/2005 8:07:58 PM EDT
[#1]
No clue whatsoever, but tagged.
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Posted: 8/17/2005 8:16:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Shotgun for 3 guns, seems to be dominated by the follwoing three:
Bernelli M1Super 90, used to be the fastest cycling shotgun Remington 11-87, 1100 is becoming more and more rare Winchester X-2, suppose to be faster in cycling than the Bernelli Both Bernelli and Winchester offer a IPSC model. Mods I have seen: Mercury recoil reducer Optics Ported barrel back-bore barrel (to improve pattern) Extended magazine Speed reload Seems like, for 3 gun shotguns, they like longer barrel, unlike tactical shotgun, which the barrel are becoming shorter and shorter. |
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Posted: 8/17/2005 8:17:33 PM EDT
[#3]
I would get a Rem 870 express with the short barrel.
or maybe a Mossberg 500. |
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Posted: 8/17/2005 8:19:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Interesting, what's the average 3 gun shotty going for $$$ nowaday's with all those modifications?
Sounds pricey EPOCH |
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Posted: 8/17/2005 8:20:14 PM EDT
[#5]
Mossberg 500.
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Posted: 8/17/2005 8:31:52 PM EDT
[#6]
+1 |
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Posted: 8/17/2005 8:33:29 PM EDT
[#7]
saiga 12 eight rd mags, lots of practice. McM
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Posted: 8/17/2005 8:37:26 PM EDT
[#8]
get a 11-87 with a field barrel ($3-400 used )
buy a 20in rifle site barrel ($200new ) probably be hard to find used but hit ebay anyway and extended mag tube ($40 new) or do the same with a Super 90 but costs about 1/2 again more for the gun and parts you can swith it back and forth for 3 gun and hunting |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 6:14:44 AM EDT
[#9]
Almost every reply you got was by post-count whores and posers.
Go here for qualified answers to your questions: www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?s=9337dfb682a0ea50a27f4f2405c6d6ca&showforum=49 FWIW, most of the IPSC shotguns users around here are using Rem 1100/1187s. As mentioned in one of the other replies, you'll need a mag extension tube and decent sights. |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 6:25:33 AM EDT
[#10]
Compitition master hands down.
Every one i have fired has ran 100% It is on my short list! CH |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 12:45:01 AM EDT
[#11]
I like a good pump shotgun. My next shot gun is going to be a MOssberg 835 turkey model.
835® TURKEY models Features 12 ga. Pump Action, Woodlands Camo finish, synthetic stock, ported 24" VR overbored Accu-Mag barrel w/ Ulti-Full turkey choke tube and adjustable fiber optic sights Drop the imporced cyclynder choke in and it good for slugs a 00 buck. NIce sights I love that shotgun. |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 4:34:50 AM EDT
[#12]
Be prepared to spend approx. $1000.00. If you are gonna play you might as well get what you want the first time. Some club members may have a used one for sale. GL
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Posted: 8/17/2005 11:10:14 PM EDT
[#13]
I use a Winchester Defender 12 gage. The only mods I have done is add a side saddle that holds 6 shells and add a fiber optic front site. Since I'm only interested in having fun, this setup works for me.
Vulcan94 |
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Posted: 8/17/2005 11:13:13 PM EDT
[#14]
The 11-87 was just a upgrade of the 1100 to take magnum 3" shells. In the 1100 series your gun either shot 2-3/4" or 3" but not both. The 11-87 shoots both shells.
For IPSC the 1100 2-3/4 will be fine, but if you think you need the knockdown punch of 3" shells for some hunting need then the 11-87 will do you fine for both. |
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Posted: 8/17/2005 11:15:15 PM EDT
[#15]
If you show up at an IPSC match with a pump gun you have admitted defeat before you even start. If you don't want to race then play some other game, if you show up on race day with a street car, you are not going have a chance at winning.
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Posted: 8/17/2005 11:22:23 PM EDT
[#16]
You'd be destroyed by anyone with a semi and a speedloader. The Saiga's mag change is slow, too slow....and awkward to boot. |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 7:10:39 AM EDT
[#17]
yep  
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Posted: 8/18/2005 7:48:06 AM EDT
[#18]
Limited-class: Semi, no pump, no Mossberg 500, no Remington 870, no detachable magazine, no saiga!.
The Remington is easy to adapt to different purposes: Competition, hunting, skeet... You will not need magnum 3” shells for IPSC, and the gas system of the 1100 is less complex (I have seen 11/87 with problems concerning the gas system). I would go with the 1100. What would you need: Choke tube, rifle sights (no ghost ring, no optics), extended loading gate, no comp, no ports, 8rd mag capacity. The Remington Competition Master is out of production. Out of the box I would go with the Winchester SX2 limited for IPSC only. Everything you need. Walli |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 8:53:00 AM EDT
[#19]
HOLY crap I didnt know that..... <----- post whore
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Posted: 8/18/2005 12:08:08 PM EDT
[#20]
Thanks for the replies. (And thanks for the mods for moving this to the proper area)
I did a little more shopping around today. Lots of 1100's and 11-87's for sale, both new and used. The two I am leaning toward right now are: (Both are used) 11-87, black synthetic stock 22 or 24" bbl (I forget which), 3 screw-in chokes for $495 or Benelli M1 Super 90, 20" bbl, camo, 5 screw-in chokes, factory case, $650 Any reason to chose one over the other? After doing a little on-line research, it seems some folks have had more trouble with small-parts breakage with the 1100's. Some folks also think the gas operated system of the 1100 is softer shooting than the Benelli's recoil operated system. Also, I might have to invest in a shorter barrel for the Remington, which sort of obviates the higher price of the Benelli. Thanks again! Doc H. |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 1:45:58 PM EDT
[#21]
I would recommend the following article: Speed Shotgun
Very good information! I would agree, that the Benelli kicks more. (Lighter and recoil operated). With the Remington you might have more problem with parts breakage. The Remington system has more small parts (is more complex) that can break or need maintenance (gas rings!). But the gas system of the Remington is less ammunition sensitive and will work even if you do not hold the gun against your shoulder strong enough. The Benelli might or might not work reliable in this situation. The Remington can easily be modified by the shooter. This is not true with the Benelli. What is more important to you? Try to shoot a Benelli and a Remington side by side.  A 22” barrel would be perfect for limited: The barrel will have the same length as the magazine extension (8rd capacity). (I would not go with less than 21”) What kind of sight are included? (Remington vent rib? Benelli rifle sights ?) Walli |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 3:20:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Yup. This is far and away the correct answer. Of course, this will put you into Open class (since the rules of the game are written against anyone who uses a detachable magazine shotgun so people can still use 11/87's and Benellis and pretend they're still competitive) but all said and done, the Saiga 12 is the best system (and I own one of each and have shot the hell out of them all, so I feel I can talk with some authority over someone who is just promoting what they already have). The Saiga 20's are maybe even a touch better presuming you aren't shooting against heavier steel poppers. If you don't believe me, go set up a 20 or 30 target practical shotgun course. Run it with a Saiga 12, and challenge all comers to a timed race without any handicap. |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 5:01:01 PM EDT
[#23]
I'd like to see a Saiga, even with 8 round mags, outpace an 11/87 with speedloaders. No, scratch that, I'd like to see a single competitor on the national level run a Saiga and even stay in the field on shotgun. I owned a Saiga-20, and while it was a fun gun and a good tactical shotgun, it's not fast enough for 3-gun against anyone with a fast speedload and decent technique. That AK-rock-in mag system is downright clumsy on the Saigas. |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 6:47:17 PM EDT
[#24]
LOL! As opposed to the remarkably fluid-in-action, three foot long tube-gun speedloaders? You've got to be kidding... FYI- Alex Wakal- a three gun competitor from the gulf region reports that Jerry Miculek really digs S20's for open class. Ever heard of Jerry Miculek? In any event, if you found the back-and-forth motion of the AK mag system too challenging for your own level of coordination, I am surprised that firearms are a chosen hobby. |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 7:26:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Negative, I usually finish in the top 10% or better with my 590A1 (mostly because I can reload it fast). That being said, a remington competition master is what I would buy. Link Good Luck G45 |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 7:29:58 PM EDT
[#26]
First off, blow me. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, condescending jerkoff. I've owned, and used both speedloading shotguns and the Saiga system, and there's no way, no how, not on this fucking earth that the Saiga is faster than a speedloader on a tube gun....not without MAJOR modification. If it was, then Jerry Miculek would be using one and all of his competition would be too....and they'd show up in the winners circle. They aren't. You have any sources that Miculek has competed, and been competitive with a Saiga? I seriously doubt that he has used one to good effect against his peers. I'll happily await a link that shows any of the big-dogs with an AK action. Show me someone who's won a major with one, plz. <jeopardy theme> |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 7:57:59 PM EDT
[#27]
OK, let me explain to you 'how things work'. Everyone uses (Model X). Everyone continues to use (Model X) until that rare individual who chooses his firearms based on critical thinking skills rather than associative rationale uses something else, and displays to the hive that it is better. Then, everyone else starts to use that too... Saiga 12's are scarce as hens teeth right now. The 8 round magazines are even worse. There are very few Saiga 12's in Open class use because there are very few Saiga 12's to begin with. Just like there are very few USAS12's in Open class use. Universally, a better system than any shotgun out there, but few in use because they are scarce and hard to obtain. As far as my source about Miculek, for Christ’s fucking sake, moron. I gave you his goddamned name. If you want to source it, try a little known site called www.google.com You are obviously one of those people who use what you see in use. If others aren't using it, it can't possibly be best as if it were, others would be doing it too.  If you ever wondered why the stock market tanked in 2000, it's because so many people have your mindset. </jeopardy music> |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 8:04:57 PM EDT
[#28]
HUH? Mags are by far the fastest, you must be a Master if you can use a speedloader faster than someone with a little practice can swap AK mags. All Saiga mags are, are fatter AK mags, what's slow and awkward about that? |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 8:18:00 PM EDT
[#29]
I typically shoot Heavy Metal / He-man calss in 3gun matches, [.308, PUMP 12 only, Single Stack pistol] and my weapon of choice is a Mossberg 590. I also have an 1100 and IMHO you will not find a shotty out there that is cheaper, cheaper to accessorize and sweeter shooting than an 1100. Mine sports a +5 extention and a sidesaddle. When I want to wimp out and shoot the poodle shooter, I bring the 1100.
Sure you can spend a grand or even much more if you want, but for a beginner, you cannot go wrong with either of those choices. The most important thing is to practice, practice, practice. Familiarity beats fancy 9 out of 10 times... |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 8:49:00 PM EDT
[#30]
I have seen both in action and will say this. They both run fast and even if reloads with a Siage are faster, you cant top off your while running a stage.. NO sneaking a couple in on the run, or dropping on in on a locked back bolt for that emergency last shot. Its a full mag or nothing. That in itself is enough to keep me away from it. Not enough flexibility.
CH |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 8:56:28 PM EDT
[#31]
I love my Benelli. You will not be disappointed. |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 9:08:50 PM EDT
[#32]
I can't call you any good names, it would violate the COC. So, just imagine what I think of you. I'm still waiting for a single victory claimed with a Saiga shotgun in a major. And, I imagine I'll be waiting a long time. I know precisely who Miculek is, and I've seen him run 3-gun many times, and NEVER with a Saiga. I can google him, I just did. Know what I found? Some people on a forum claim he has a couple 20's, and likes them. Big fucking deal. I had one too....I liked it as well. Why hasn't he one with one? Why hasn't anyone else on the top level? If there's one thing I know alot about, it's speed shooters. If there were 1/2 second to be gained by cutting a testicle off, half the 3-gunners on earth would be short one ball. That's the god damned truth. If a Saiga was up to the task, the best shooters would be dominating with them. Saigas are not ultra rare - at least they weren't before the EAA crap and trust me dork, no one was dominating 3-gun when you could buy one for $200 at Big-5. Even with being rare, if people wanted one now they still get their hands on one much cheaper than a hot-rod 3-gun rig....so again, why isn't the 3-gun community embracing them? I'm done patting your ass and I don't think you're the kind of guy that will let up, so I'll just go on knowing what I know and you go on trying to convince yourself that your Saiga is faster than a $3000 custom. We both know its not, and that's all I need to say. |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 10:10:13 PM EDT
[#33]
And you are totally wrong. |
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Posted: 8/18/2005 11:50:11 PM EDT
[#34]
Still waiting for the results of a single major 3-gun completed with a Saiga, where the shooter was even near the top of the standings. Balls in your court, know it all. Clock is ticking. 
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Posted: 8/19/2005 12:21:32 AM EDT
[#35]
I'll say the same thing about a USAS12. Show me one single instance of a USAS12 being used by a shooter who was even near the top of the standings... Universally recognized as a superior weapon to any of your tube-feds with those retarded yardstick speedloaders. Since your entire premise relies on 'who uses it' or 'who has placed with it', that must mean the USAS (which has a similar magazine lockup and release to an AR15) isn't a good gun, right? It's idiotic, 3-Year-Old logic. Anyway, the same dynamic governs both guns. Just because you aren't able to grasp it doesn't change the facts. It just means that you aren't able to grasp them. I'm sorry if you aren't able to understand anything that is a bit nuanced... Maybe I can find some pictures for you. |
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Posted: 8/19/2005 7:47:52 AM EDT
[#36]
You've never shot a 3-gun competition have you? It's okay you can admit that you don't have a clue about what it takes to actually compete. Cape_Hunter nailed the major flaw is the inability to top off on the fly. Ever shot a stage that required mixed rounds? What would you do with a Siaga then? Make a full mag change? Prestack your mags and hope you don't miss a target? Assume the SNiVeL position?  I would also like to take the time to point out a flaw in your logic, or in your case a desparate attempt to avoid answering the question posed. You were first asked to provide the results from one major 3-gun competition where the shooter was near the top of the standings. Now, Swingset's question was probably unfair because he already knew the answer and knew that you were full of shit, but he had every right to challenge your "expertise" considering such fine statements as: Of course, this will put you into Open class (since the rules of the game are written against anyone who uses a detachable magazine shotgun so people can still use 11/87's and Benellis and pretend they're still competitive) You are obviously one of those people who use what you see in use. If others aren't using it, it can't possibly be best as if it were, others would be doing it too. If you ever wondered why the stock market tanked in 2000, it's because so many people have your mindset. Instead of answering the question posed, which you quoted, you atttempted to save your ass by diversion. Why isn't the USAS12 being used by a top shooter in 3-gun? Because it sufferes from the same flaws as the Saiga which were previously mentioned. Additionally, a USAS12 is SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED by IPSC Rule 5.1.11, so no, I do not believe that "the same dynamic governs both guns." SBG PS - Here's a picture for you. Please learn from it.  |
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Posted: 8/19/2005 8:01:19 AM EDT
[#37]
How dare you enter logic into this...gees!  "An irrational man never hears logic." CH |
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Posted: 8/19/2005 2:00:56 PM EDT
[#38]
It's okay to admit that you will say anything to continue to justify an inferior system.
That's about as lame as people saying the reason the 1911 is better than striker fired guns is 'second strike capability'- a totally pathetic reach. I'll explain to you how you do an ammo transition in a Saiga, since apparently your gray matter isn't able to solve that complex problem yourself. Yes, if you need slug you do change a magazine. Seeing how quickly this can be done, it isn't that big of a deal at all. Since the overall reload speed of the magazine fed system totally negates the slight speed loss the Saiga incurrs when doing a slug drill, it still stays way, way ahead of the timer.
LOL! Idiot, ask yourself why they prohibit that one gun by name. It's because it totally dominates everything else in the field and isn't 'fair' to everyone with tube fed guns. Here's a picture for you. I don't think you can learn anything from it, but it's pretty representative of who I am debating in this trhead. 
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Posted: 8/19/2005 2:16:19 PM EDT
[#39]
regarding this debate:
Skill matters more than equipment...as long as the equipment functions reliably The top shooters often to continue to use what they have always used because they have invested a lot of time, energy and money into training to use it the best....a magazine fed shotgun would have to be more than a minor advantage to get them to switch because they would have to totally retrain to use it. It's not the same as switching to a different sight or comp. For a magazine fed shotgun to have a distinct advantage over a tube fed with speedloaders, the courses must have more than 12 rounds required, and if there is to be a switch between loads, it either needs to be at the beginning or the end of the stage. If you have to switch back and forth between loads, the tube fed will dominate. If the stage only requires shot...the mag fed has some advantages. I used speed loaders for a while as an experiment...for me they wore out too quickly and it was difficult to be able to use them consistently under stress. A tube fed shotgun with speed loaders requires a more skilled and practiced operator than a magazine fed shotgun. Having used both types I would personally prefer to use a mag fed shotgun, so long as the magazine changes were easily accomplished. Using a magazine fed shotgun dramatically effects how you choose to shoot a stage though. re: USPSA rules...who cares, none of the major 3 gun matches in the country use them. None of the matches I shoot use them. |
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Posted: 8/19/2005 3:10:02 PM EDT
[#40]
Its all fun and games until the match director has a load one fire one stage. Or loose rounds from a box. Oh btw, those things happen in a 3 gun match. Have fun loading your mags  CH |
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Posted: 8/19/2005 3:36:32 PM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 8/19/2005 5:18:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Actually, IPSC Rule 5.1.11 doesn't specifically prohibit a USAS 12. The rule says that, "Shotguns offering “burst” and/or fully automatic operation (i.e. whereby more than one round can be discharged on a single pull or activation of the trigger) are prohibited. That would prohibit any model of shotgun that was capable of “burst” and/or fully automatic operation. Since according to Modern Firearms & Ammunition Site there are semi auto only USAS 12's, those would be legal for use under the IPSC rules. That being said, as a member of the USPSA, I've have never read in the journal "Front Site" of a USAS 12 being used in a 3-gun match. IIRC, I believe Saiga's have been used. Vulcan94 |
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Posted: 8/19/2005 5:51:27 PM EDT
[#43]
No offense, but... This is beginning to sound an awful LOT like kids talking about tourney-ball (paintball played in a flat arena filled with plastic/inflatable obstacles). |
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Posted: 8/20/2005 11:11:39 AM EDT
[#44]
Vulcan, Thanks for the correction. I did not realize that the USAS 12 had been manufactured in a semi auto, but I did not find any description of a semi auto USAS 12 on that website. It only described it as selective fire. I agree that Saiga's have been used and under ideal circumstances can be used very effectively in a competition, however given the unique (sadistic) quirks that 3-gun match directors seem to have in stage design I just don't believe that the platform is flexible enough for serious competition use. I looked into a Saiga when EAA first started to import them. I was impressed and thought that they would soon begin to dominate the sport. However, the more I considered their limitations the more I knew that I would not use a Saiga in competition. This is not to say that a flexible magazine fed platform could not rise to dominate the sport. However, it is unlikely that anyone who wants to market a budget gun is going to take the time to engineer an entirely new system just for the 3-gun competitions. Sinstral, I really don't know whose rules dominate major 3-gun competitions, however I did know that the USPSA had adopted the IPSC shotgun rules and knew that 5.1.11 was the same in both. However, that being said I do not know of any major 3-gun competition that will allow a selective fire shotgun to be used. I also agree that speed loaders are a pain in the ass and require a TON of practice, maintenance, practice, replacement and practice to function properly. I also agree that for most of us (me included) the magazine platform will allow for an easier quick reload, but given the format of the competition no current magazine based system offers a significant advantage to a shooter who is proficient with his speed loaders. SBG |
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Posted: 8/20/2005 12:06:16 PM EDT
[#45]
scaryblackguns,
International Multigun Style rules dominate at most 3 Gun Matches...modified for the match in particular, and to the tastes of those running the match. In designing the courses for our 3 gun match in Waco this September, I intentionally designed them so that a magazine fed shotgun would not be an advantage over conventional set ups....unless the operator puts a lot of thought into how they want to shoot the stage. If someone wants to at our match they can shoot with select fire shotguns, rifles, belt fed machine guns, or sub-machine guns...not sure if any of it is a real advantage, but if people want to use it and they lawfully posess it, they are welcome to do so. www.cavalryarms.com/3gun/3gun.html |
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Posted: 8/20/2005 12:19:27 PM EDT
[#46]
[Carl]Frickin' AWSOME[/Carl] I am on the way to one of your matches. Local range prohibits Class III and frowns when you actually shoot one in a match. I keep thinking I should move to Arizona... SBG PS -- Now you see what I mean by sadistic match directors! |
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Posted: 8/20/2005 12:42:19 PM EDT
[#47]
DocH - You have to know only one name in shotguns..........BENELLI! Although you may want to go with a longer barrel for your three-gun match.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/428SCJ/100_1123.jpg
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Posted: 8/20/2005 1:25:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Unfortunately we have to go to Waco, TX to get a good sized facility that will let us do exactly what we want....but there are a lot of good local matches held monthly in Arizona. |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 1:53:32 AM EDT
[#49]
All I can say is at the 3 gun shoots I have been at you see four shotguns used by most.
Benelli Super 90 Remington 1100 Competition Master Remington 1187 Winchester SX2 Not to say these are the best......But a lot of people are running them for score. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 7:52:52 AM EDT
[#50]
The USAS-12 in semi-auto is classified as a Destructive Device. For a 3-Gun competitor that travels to many states for many matches, that is a huge encumberance. Not only do you have to fill out the NFA forms to buy it (with the CLEO signoff, wait time and $200 tax,) you also have to fill out Form 5320.20 every time you want to cross a state line with it. Also, some states don't allow civilian ownership of DDs, so the competitor may not be able to bring it to every match.
Lastly, a fully loaded USAS-12 weighs about 13 lbs. That is pretty heavy for a competition gun, since you will do a lot of "running and gunning." As far as the Saiga debate, the Saiga will probably never beat the speedloaders because the Saiga lacks one very significant feature, a bolt hold open. If the Saiga had a bolt hold open, then it would be a lot faster to reload than it currently is. I shoot 3 gun matches, and I watch the open class guys with their speedloaders, and it is amazing how fast they can reload. |
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