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Posted: 9/7/2004 5:55:33 PM EDT
[#1]
The M1014 has the ARGO gas piston system that augments the inertial locking mechanism. The inertial lock is a bit temperamental to proper mounting in the shoulder and if any weight is added (like lights, etc) to it.
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Posted: 9/7/2004 8:24:49 PM EDT
[#2]
keep the commits coming why should I get a M4 or should I stick to what I know.
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Posted: 9/8/2004 9:31:31 AM EDT
[#3]
You get the flat top rail system so you can add things like an Aimpoint without requiring some sort of funky adapter.
The gas system is the biggest plus for the shotgun, I'm strongly considering getting an M4 myself. -Steve |
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Posted: 9/8/2004 9:45:13 AM EDT
[#4]
The M4 is a fine shotgun, but I really don't see the need for the addition of the gas system.
The inertia system operates very reliably over a wide range of loads, and has been perfectly reliable for me in my Benelli M3. I've fired a mixed-magazine ranging from magnum buckshot to AA target loads, and it cycled them all very quickly without a hiccup. For very weak loads that may be problematic, or for a backup system, my M3 can be quickly selected to pump action. I don't see alot of need for the rail on a shotgun, personally, because the available ghost-ring sights do a very good job. I like the M4, but I wouldn't spend any extra money for what it offers over an M3 or M1. BTW, I have a light on mine, and it doesn't affect the cycling reliablity at all. |
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Posted: 9/8/2004 4:24:05 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 9/8/2004 10:54:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Just try adding some weight to the M1 and see what happens to reliability. My M1 with 9 shells in the sidesaddles is totally unreliable with moderate loads (3 dram.) It works great with 3 3/4 dram loads (very stout.) If I add an Aimpoint to it with the fully loaded side saddles, even the heave 3 3/4 dram loads won't cycle reliably. I don't want to have to change modes to correct a short stroke, I want the shotgun to fire as fast as I can pull the trigger. I will probably go for an M4, but I think the price is going to be far too steep..... |
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Posted: 9/8/2004 11:18:58 PM EDT
[#7]
They have a reputation for reliability that makes them sound like the AK of semi-auto SG's, so I'll probably go for one on that basis alone, but it still pisses me off that the adjustable stock won't be available here even after the ban (due to not fitting BATF 'sporting purposes' criteria). This is particularly annoying when one considers that it's perfectly legal in Canada. This country's screwing itself to death.
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Posted: 9/9/2004 6:35:20 AM EDT
[#8]
I have an Mi and am perfectly happy with it within the parameters said above. It doesn't like not being shouldered correctly, it doesn't like accessories. Company called Grams Engineering does a wonderful mod to the bolt carrier that corrects this. He shaves the side off the bolt carrier, lightening it up and making it cycle faster on heavier loads andmore reliably with lighter lods. A lot of Benelli users in IPSC use this carrier.
As an aside, I'm a little flabbergasted at some of the naivte going on here on this board. I'm going to sound like a jerk, but the photo just a few posts above this one shows a Benelli M1014 that is illegal. The pistol grip and 5-round extension both on the same Post-Ban gun at the same time? Come on, I know the Ban is expiring in a few days, but for those few days, that's a felony and you are posting positive evidence of that felony. Your tag-line says Florida, so there's no I'm in Canada excuse. Not just you either, I see this going on all over this board. I would highly advise being very careful about posting photos like this. Can be very dangerous. |
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Posted: 9/11/2004 10:52:27 PM EDT
[#9]
Yeah, illegal, the feds are gonna get ya!
(So where can I order the 5 round extension? I tryed Googling it, but I couldnt find one.) |
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Posted: 9/17/2004 1:13:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Guys, I just got off the phone with a lady in Customer Service at Benelli. She said that the new M4's with collapsible stock are being made available to both LE and civilian TODAY. It should be another 2-3 weeks (?) before dealers have them. I was similarly concerned about 922(r), but perhaps Benelli has already received some indication from ATF that this configuration fits within the "sporting purpose" exception.
If anyone has info to contradict this, please chime in. Trying to educate myself here and stay legal at the same time... |
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Posted: 9/17/2004 3:14:48 PM EDT
[#11]
I hope and pray you are correct. |
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Posted: 9/17/2004 4:49:29 PM EDT
[#12]
ME, TOO!!! I installed my mag extension this week, but hate that damned faux telestock. 
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Posted: 9/17/2004 7:54:12 PM EDT
[#13]
[scooby doo]Huhh???!?!?[/scooby doo]
I hope you're not jerking our chain. I just bought the M4 today and it should be in some time next week. I got the regular pistol grip stocked one with the removable chokes. I'm going to shoot Benelli an E-mail. If it's true, I'll be like, [high pitch eric]Oh Yeaaaaaaaaaaah!!! [/high pitch eric] -Steve |
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Posted: 9/18/2004 9:50:53 AM EDT
[#14]
Stevenb,
See response to your other post elsewhere. Do check with Benelli on the availability (to civilians) of that collapsible stock, just so that we can get more confirmation than my own. Thanks. |
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Posted: 9/19/2004 1:45:50 PM EDT
[#15]
This has to be some seriously erroneous  , but I'm sending an email out myself. I highly doubt this information is correct, as an employee isn't necessarily a reliable source, & Benelli's product website doesn't show it as an option.
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Posted: 9/19/2004 1:57:22 PM EDT
[#16]
M4 is designed to function with Light Tactical Loads.
MT |
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Posted: 9/19/2004 2:21:42 PM EDT
[#17]
Master_Blaster, please let us all know if you hear anything differently. Had Benelli not expressly provided this information to me, I'd never had posted anything to that effect. I appreciate the healthy scepticism, as I was just as surprised to hear this as everyone else. But, once I got it from the "horse's mouth", I simply had to pass it on. |
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Posted: 9/19/2004 3:05:42 PM EDT
[#18]
I hope you're right & my skepticism proves unfounded. Would be a watershed moment. |
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Posted: 9/19/2004 3:07:08 PM EDT
[#19]
I tried to contact Benelli directly via e-mail and their website says that their e-mail service is down. I wrote down their phone number, but who knows when I'll have time to call.
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Posted: 9/19/2004 7:08:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Somebody on Benelli's forums has emailed their Customer Service and received the same reply.
LINK |
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Posted: 9/19/2004 7:43:29 PM EDT
[#21]
Alright. After reading the thread on that link, I'm coming to the conclusion that there is some rather serious miscommunication taking place. The Benelli rep. that replied to one of the posters about getting an actual collapsible stock gave him the part # for the nonfunctional, PC'd, "skeleton" version. I'm beginning to think that I need to call them to correct their own mis-statements. I strongly doubt that an illegal firearm format will pass BATF import inspection, & it's looking more like BenelliUSA employees are speaking from ignorance.
Again I hope I'm wrong & this does come to pass, but I'm highly skeptical, as the import criteria seems to indicate it just can't happen. |
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Posted: 9/20/2004 12:48:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Bump.
Love to hear what Master Blaster found out. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 12:34:43 AM EDT
[#23]
Ask & ye shall receive: I called BenelliUSA customer service & was pleasantly surprised to confirm ipguy's report. Benelli is, indeed, selling the real-deal, collapsible PG M4S90 stock as a separate item for legal installation on the M4S90 by owners. According to them, the M4S90 can not be imported w/ it installed, but they can be purchased by owners & attached. I asked very specifically about the legality of this, & was told that it was legal & Benelli will sell them. When I was given the part # for the stock, I mentioned that it was the same part # as the "skeletonized" abortion stock - which we've all come to know & hate - shown on their website, & was told that this was now the part # for the real-deal collapsible unit. No, I am not joking. Also, I asked about differences between the M1014 "special edition" & the M4S90, & reconfirmed that the only difference is the M1014 has the flag engraving on the receiver & the fixed choke. The M4S90 has choke options (make mine a compensatir/door breaker). There seems to be some rumors floating around that the M4S90 has a slimmer profile bbl., which is incorrect. Th eonly differences are the ones I've stated here. Anyone says otherwise, & they are making smoke, absent a real fire. A special kudos to ipguy for having the cajonas to ask about this & then break the news to us. ipguy - you da' man! |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 3:48:13 AM EDT
[#24]
That is great news Master_blaster.
Did they say when they would be available, or if you could purchase them directly from Benelli? Was the 180 dollar MSRP correct? -Steve |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 4:11:30 AM EDT
[#25]
I ordered my M4, collapsible stock, and 2-rd extension yesterday from a local dealer. Will get everything in 7 days.
 It ain't cheap, but get 'em while they're hot, because if Kerry becomes President, that evil looking system is gonna be a target.Master_Blaster, thanks for following up with Benelli. I report, you decide. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 8:57:59 AM EDT
[#26]
I wasn't concerned until now. Isn't that manufacturing a non-importable firearm? And isn't that verbotin under 922? |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 9:13:49 AM EDT
[#27]
This is from the horses mouth, all I can say. I doubt BATF would let it fly if it weren't legal, & I also doubt a major importer/mfg'er could pull off fencing blatantly illegal advice w/o red flags going up, either. They must have checked on it. Benelli isn't some backroad, 3rd-party operation running out of a wood shack in the back-woods-middle-of-nowhere. They're a major player, & have it in their best interest to be up on legal matters. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 10:47:49 AM EDT
[#28]
Master_Blaster,
Here is the thread in which I posted a specific question to "BenelliGirl". Because of the manner of her response, I am surmising that she is with Benelli, although that's not clear. www.benelliusa.com/forums/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/800.html Hopefully, we can get something specific from Benelli on the legal issue, just so that we can all sleep better on this. BTW, I contacted ATF on this issue (local office) and the guy there said they weren't concerned about any shotguns unless the barrel was less than 16". He knew little or nothing about the peculiarities of the import ban. He referred me to the Firearms Technology Branch in VA, but all you get is a recording to call your local ATF agents with questions, because they are so inundated with calls right now. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 10:59:18 AM EDT
[#29]
Thanks again, ip. I tried to register there & post essentially the same thing, but I never got a password, so I couldn't get onboard there. Let us know.
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Posted: 9/21/2004 12:04:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Will do. And for anyone springing for one of these M4's, think about the TacStar barrel shroud. Looks like it could be handy if you're shooting a lot (been burned before on other guns). I'm trying to get more info on this, and it's shown on the pics in this thread: www.benelliusa.com/forums/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/792.html |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 12:08:17 PM EDT
[#31]
Where can an M4 be had for a good price? |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 12:14:13 PM EDT
[#32]
I went local for mine, only because a Benelli "stocking dealer" can get it quickly (7-10 days). But, you should check out www.impactguns.com. The base price is about $1200, but the collapsible stock and 2-rd extension will add more to that. I think they have a package deal for $1400. Not cheap, but it's what I really wanted. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 12:34:01 PM EDT
[#33]
Well, the part in itself isn't illegal. And the gun without the collapsable stock isn't illegal to import. Technically, Benelli is in the clear no matter what. I was under the impression that the LE gun had the collapsable stock and that that version would be made to the public. Could it be that the collapsable stock is somehow less evil to the ATF than the folding stock of the M3? And why would the LE version have the faux stock? LE isn't subject to the same draconian gun laws. Hmm. This gets curiouser and curiouser. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 12:48:02 PM EDT
[#34]
Yes it does. I think you're right about the first 3 sentences. I think somehow the M4 LE version (11707) did have a true collapsible stock until the AWB expired, and then the 11707 as shipped to non-LE has the fixed skeletonized stock. Just like the stock 70085 used to be a fixed skeletonized stock, and is now the same number for a true (but additional) collapsible stock. Wierd, I know, but that's what it appears. Of course, LE gets whatever they want, regardless of part numbers and such. I just want to hear it straight from Benelli that us end users out here who are installing the collapsible stocks on our otherwise legal M4's are not in violation of ANY federal firearms laws. Somehow, I get the feeling that I shouldn't be holding my breath. Remember how vendors have been selling parts (uppers with flash hiders, Magpul stocks, etc.) all during the AWB, but they have no criminal culpability for the end users' decision to actually "assemble" and "possess" a firearm that was in violation of the law. If this is the same situation, and Benelli isn't making this clear, I'd seriously be pissed. But, this must not be the case, because I believe Benelli would have made it clear already (before actually selling these stocks) that it cannot attest to the legality of their ultimate use. We shall see.... Are you going to get an M4? |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 1:21:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Actually, I have a M1014. Yes, I overpaid for the flag, but it was the only one available at the time. I was going to modify the stock to be a two position. Kinda waiting on the outcome of this whole thing.
I posted the legal references on the Benelli Forums. |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 1:45:02 PM EDT
[#36]
Thank you. See my responses there. Still researching.... |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 2:37:51 PM EDT
[#37]
You need to consider that there never was a pre-ban version of the M1014. Pre-ban AR-15 parts have been sold for the last ten years as replacement parts for those who legally owned pre-ban rifles. But since there were no pre-ban M1014 shotguns, there was no legal reason to offer it to anyone non-LE. That's why the stock was never sold to the general public before. If they start selling it to the general public now, it is because of their belief in its legality.
According to my 1994 edition of Gun Digest, the folding stock version of the Benelli M3 was imported and available to civilians right up to the '94 AW Ban. I'm seriously hoping that the legal issues are cut-and-dried, as I really want to ditch this faux telestock! |
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Posted: 9/21/2004 7:42:26 PM EDT
[#38]
would the m4 stock fit on the recoil tube of an M1S90?
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Posted: 9/22/2004 3:58:29 AM EDT
[#39]
Thanks for the link. $1300 for the Mil' version. Maybe.... |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 5:10:21 AM EDT
[#40]
I know a place where you can get a Benelli M4, it has the pistol grip stock. No extension for 1100 bucks. It's out of Mexifornia.
E-mail me if you want it. -Steve |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 2:58:55 PM EDT
[#41]
No. |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 3:02:14 PM EDT
[#42]
I put a letter in the mail today asking the BATF about the legality of adding the functioning stock to the M1014. I know some people frown upon asking the BATF for a ruling on anything, but heck, I don't want to jeopardize my freedoms over something as simple as adding a telestock. |
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Posted: 9/22/2004 3:17:13 PM EDT
[#43]
I just hope they give a timely reply. I wholeheartedly agree. Freedom isn't worth a telestock. |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 12:50:28 PM EDT
[#44]
I just got off the phone w/ the nearest official Benelli dealer, & the guy was astonished at the news from the distributor that what we're all hearing about is the deal. He couldn't believe it when I told him originally, but admitted to having an "interesting" conversation w/ the distributor & getting it from the horses mouth for himself.
My skepticism is waning. This is most likely the truth, as I just can't believe that a major, high-profile mfg'er would be so stupid as to walk blindly into a legal tar pit. Just don't see that happening. Probably gonna get 2 - just to be sure. 
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Posted: 9/23/2004 2:12:44 PM EDT
[#45]
I still don't see how Benelli would bear any legal responsibility if someone bought and M4 and a telestock and then illegally put them together. Assuming, of course, it is illegal. I hope it is not.
Related question. I've heard two stories. One says Benelli imported the M3 with folding stock up until the ban. The other says they stopped in 1989. I think finding out the truth would shed some light on the current situation. Here's another question. Is Benelli importing the the M3 with the folding stock now? |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 2:27:53 PM EDT
[#46]
On page 418 of the 1994 issue of Gun Digest, it lists the following: Benelli M3 Super 90 Pump/Auto Shotgun Gauge: 12, 3" chamber, 7-shot magazine Barrel: 19 3/4" (Cyl.) Stock: High-impact polymer with sling loop in side of butt; rubberized pistol grip on stock. Also folding stock model. Sights: Post front, buckhorn rear adjustable for windage. Ghost ring system available. Features: Combination pump/auto action. Alloy receiver with inertia recoil rotating locking bolt; matte finish; automatic shell release lever. Introduced 1989. Imported by Heckler & Koch, Inc. Price: .........................................................................$919.00 Price: With Ghost Ring sight system........................$949.00 Price: With folding stock........................................$1,029.00 It also has a photo next to the ad of the folding stock version of the Benelli M3 Super 90. Hence, my curiosity led me to start this thread a while back: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=1&t=175812 |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 2:48:51 PM EDT
[#47]
Everything I've researched tells me that the M4 was not on any list of guns prohibited from importation. That being the case (although I would love to hear from anyone showing otherwise) the M4 can be modified however you like. It's just not one of the guns that is affected, period. Even though it's "kind of like" the M1 and M3 in some respects, the statute says "identical". Any comments?
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Posted: 9/23/2004 2:50:47 PM EDT
[#48]
The consistent story I keep getting is that the M4S90 must be imported w/ a fixed stock, then the owner can buy the item separately & add them on. Sounds ludicrous. But then, we live in ludicrous times. If putting one on is a violation, how will Benelli look in the eyes of the law? The stock is specific to the M4 alone - it cannot be fitted to any other SG. Since selling it could only result in the M4 being reconfigured, what other possible scenario could the seller expect the sale of this stock to used for? A stand-alone "conversation piece"? How amiable do you think a Grand Jury might be towards that notion? In my mind, it would make Benelli an accessory to a crime of altering a firearm into an illegal configuration. Additionally, Benelli has to pass U.S. Customs import inspection to get these stocks into the country. In any case, I just don't see Benelli foolishly, voluntarily placing itself in potential legal jeopardy &/or civil liability. There must be an issue related to the now-defunct AWB that we're missing.
Benelli isn't even importing & selling the M4 w/ its collapsible stock (gov't agencies, excepted). It seems reasonable to surmise, unless the M1 & M3S90 in evil config. are specifically banned by name, that these could also be retrofitted w/ folding stocks, after purchase, though I don't know if said stocks are available for them as separate items, if at all. Also, I don't know if the fact that the stock on the M4 is (essentially) adjustable for LOP, & not a folding unit, affords it a greater level of legal permissibility. |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 3:18:44 PM EDT
[#49]
Some more info before anyone goes out and spends $180 on the skeletonized telestock.
It will only work on LE M4's. It won't work the old civilian M4s or the M1014s. The reason is part # 049J, the recoil spring housing. Only the LE M4's have the appropriate indentations. Sorry if I'm stating the obvious. The good news. There is a way to modify the skeletonized stock that came with the M1014s to collapse. It's very simple actually. However, without the indentations it would only be two position, all the way in and all the way out. In the all the way in position it would not lock, but my guess, and it's only a SWAG, it won't twist much due to the pistol grip holding it in place. At least, that's what it looks like to me. |
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Posted: 9/23/2004 3:37:15 PM EDT
[#50]
dport, on a similar note, I've removed the stock from the tube on my M1014 and studied it and compared it to photos in my owner's manual. It appears that the "working" tube has grooves machined in them to allow the stock to close. If you've ever taken yours off, do you remember that you had to turn it before you pulled it off? If you couldn't do it the "correct" way, couldn't a person add a groove to one side running the full length of the tube and make semi-circle grooves every inch or so? Then you could turn the stock 1/4 turn, slide it in to the desired semi-circle groove, and rotate it back to the upright position. This would essentially lock the stock where it could not move forward or backward. The only way to move it would be to rotate the detent back to the full-length groove. Does this make sense to anyone, or am I just confusing you all?
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