With the SS192 round I say yes....What do you say?

-

Enough for what?You plan on CCW this pistol with them rounds?Do you plan on shooting thru bullet proof vest?If it is gonna be just a SHTF weapon then it will do if the time ever comes to that and you need a handgun to use for such,But anything else it is just a new toy and thats about the extent of the pistol.
For CCW use you will soon have problems if caught with the peircing ammo,It is to much weapon for CCW as it will pass thru walls and people and can and will hit innocent people,As i seen a guy talking about it at the gun shop for his CCW and i thought why not just wear a trench coat and carry a 11.5 inch barreled M4 carbine

Quoted: Enough for what?You plan on CCW this pistol with them rounds?Do you plan on shooting thru bullet proof vest?If it is gonna be just a SHTF weapon then it will do if the time ever comes to that and you need a handgun to use for such,But anything else it is just a new toy and thats about the extent of the pistol. For CCW use you will soon have problems if caught with the peircing ammo,It is to much weapon for CCW as it will pass thru walls and people and can and will hit innocent people,As i seen a guy talking about it at the gun shop for his CCW and i thought why not just wear a trench coat and carry a 11.5 inch barreled M4 carbine

My CCW is a Glock 27....Though I do have a Five-seveN for a home defense handgun.

"enough-gun" is apparently a widely used term in Handgundom of which I am not familiar...
I thought someone who was familiar with the term might be able to enlighten me...The 5.7 just seems to be down-played lately.

AGNTSA

No.

If anything it's too much gun. This is a cop killer if i've ever seen one. 20 round magazine with rounds capable of armor piercing? What else do you want to do, take out the guiderod and replace it with a missle launcher?

Quoted: If anything it's too much gun. This is a cop killer if i've ever seen one. 20 round magazine with rounds capable of armor piercing? What else do you want to do, take out the guiderod and replace it with a missle launcher?

Quoted: If anything it's too much gun. This is a cop killer if i've ever seen one. 20 round magazine with rounds capable of armor piercing? What else do you want to do, take out the guiderod and replace it with a missle launcher?

Woah, they make a grenade launcher for the Five-Seven?  (I assume you mean grenade, not missle)  Who makes it?  I'll assume it's just a DD so I can get one.  Sweet!

Short answer...no.

no

its a specialty gun--only good for use against light bpvs

i'll stick to my 10mm or .45acp
make head shots

moshooter, where do you get your information from???  Go through walls and hit bystanders???  I have read a number of tests and reports on actual shootinga and the data is just the opposite.  Everyone wants to call this a "cop killer" round when in fact any round properly placed is a "cop killer".  There are a hell of a lot of rounds out there that will penetrate level II vests but I don't hear anyone talking about them.  This round was designed to not over-penetrate and the few one shot kills that have been recorded did not exit the body in any of the cases.  Can't say that about .357 or 44 mags!  I have seen tests first hand where mock walls (layer of drywall, layer of insulation, & layer of exterior plywood have been shot with SS192 and the rounds did not come out the other side.  Not once.  Do your own real world tests and see what kind of over penetration you get.

If you go on the 1911 Forum people constantly discuss the best 45 ACP round that will penetrate heavy winter clothing and leather jackets.  Everyone is worried about hollow points clogging.  Why not use a round like the SS192 that will absolutely penetrate any clothing a gad guy is wearing?  There is a ban on the importation of SS192 ammo.  Not the posession or use of SS192.  I carry my FN Five-seveN now during the winter for CCW as I can conceal it with little problem under winter clothing.  For the summer I will switch back to my 3" Kimber Ultra CDP 45 ACP.

People should stop repeating the CRAP they hear on these boards and do a little fact checking for them selves.

Just my .02
MadDog

If you shoot well with it, yes, imo.

Carry the weapon you use best. If that's a Five-seveN, go with it.

No.

Might as well use an ice pick.

Quoted: No. Might as well use an ice pick.

But it's like using an ice pick that can stab a guy 20 times really, really, really fast.

Quoted: Quoted: No. Might as well use an ice pick. But it's like using an ice pick that can stab a guy 20 times really, really, really fast.

Course I could use a .40 and do a failure drill to the head or to the hip much faster....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No. Might as well use an ice pick. But it's like using an ice pick that can stab a guy 20 times really, really, really fast. Course I could use a .40 and do a failure drill to the head or to the hip much faster....

Actually, if you can do a failure drill with a .40 pretty fast, all 20 with the 5.7 would only be a hair slower. It's extremely easy to shoot, shoot fast and shoot accurately.

Then again, if you can put a .40 into an eye socket, you can with a 5.7 as well, and probably be faster with the 5.7.

Not saying the 5.7 is anything else besides a fun gun to shoot.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No. Might as well use an ice pick. But it's like using an ice pick that can stab a guy 20 times really, really, really fast. Course I could use a .40 and do a failure drill to the head or to the hip much faster.... Actually, if you can do a failure drill with a .40 pretty fast, all 20 with the 5.7 would only be a hair slower. It's extremely easy to shoot, shoot fast and shoot accurately. Then again, if you can put a .40 into an eye socket, you can with a 5.7 as well, and probably be faster with the 5.7. Not saying the 5.7 is anything else besides a fun gun to shoot.

As long as we're on the same page.

I just wouldn't trust the 5.7 to stop anything coming at me. Kill it? Sure. But it won't stop it.

I'm really more interested to see results in a few years. At this point, there's not enough information out IMO. Although I still think I could get a double tap and a placed shot out of my G23 much faster than you couldget 20 rounds out of the 57, but I'm just guessing.

Quoted: As long as we're on the same page. I just wouldn't trust the 5.7 to stop anything coming at me. Kill it? Sure. But it won't stop it. I'm really more interested to see results in a few years. At this point, there's not enough information out IMO. Although I still think I could get a double tap and a placed shot out of my G23 much faster than you couldget 20 rounds out of the 57, but I'm just guessing.

I'm not saying your double tap or your failure drill wouldn't be quicker. I think you would be surprised how fast and accurately you can fire all 20 out of a FiveseveN.

As for results, you won't get any "real world" results from me. I trust my Glocks for the serious stuff.

But I'll be damned if the 5.7 isn't my favorite gun to shoot right now. I just wish there was a steady source of ammo. I'm really contemplating rolling my own.

Quoted: Quoted: As long as we're on the same page. I just wouldn't trust the 5.7 to stop anything coming at me. Kill it? Sure. But it won't stop it. I'm really more interested to see results in a few years. At this point, there's not enough information out IMO. Although I still think I could get a double tap and a placed shot out of my G23 much faster than you couldget 20 rounds out of the 57, but I'm just guessing. I'm not saying your double tap or your failure drill wouldn't be quicker. I think you would be surprised how fast and accurately you can fire all 20 out of a FiveseveN. As for results, you won't get any "real world" results from me. I trust my Glocks for the serious stuff. But I'll be damned if the 5.7 isn't my favorite gun to shoot right now. I just wish there was a steady source of ammo. I'm really contemplating rolling my own.

Friend of mine bought 20k rounds of the armor piercing stuff to hold onto as an investment. I'll put you in touch if you want.

No.  A novelty IMO.

Quoted: If anything it's too much gun. This is a cop killer if i've ever seen one. 20 round magazine with rounds capable of armor piercing? What else do you want to do, take out the guiderod and replace it with a missle launcher?

Kevin...  What are you doing?  Just when people are starting to accept you as a "non-troll?"  You go and say something asinine like that?  I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but throwing around gun fearing wussy language like that you make me wonder.  You're not a Kennedy are you?  Please tell me it was a joke?  I don't mean anything personal, and I'm not attacking you, just...  Help us out here!

I saw a statistic somewhere about the percentage of burglaries that are commited with balistic vests.  It does happen.  Come into my home.  If you don't hurt anyone else shoot them with the most effective weapon you have.

Anyone using a balistic vest aim for just above there chest and throat.  Sure kill zone right there anyways.

I would have to say that if the CHL holder (concealed handgun license) in Texas yesterday had a 5.7 he probably would be alive today.  A CHL holder worked across the street from a court house in Texas and was witness to a disgrunteled man with an AK.  The man shot and killed his estranged wife and wounded his little kid in front of the court house.  The CHL holder tried to stop the man by shooting him twice in the chest.  The bad guy was wearing body armor concealed under a heavy jacket.  By the time citizen noticed the bad guy wasn't going down it was to late.  The bad guy returned fire and killed him.  One or more cops were also killed.  

This was all over the news yesterday and I would venture to say if the citizen had a Five-seveN his chances of survival would have been alot better double-tapping the guy in the chest with this "Evil Round".

Just my .02
MadDog

Quoted: I would have to say that if the CHL holder (concealed handgun license) in Texas yesterday had a 5.7 he probably would be alive today.  A CHL holder worked across the street from a court house in Texas and was witness to a disgrunteled man with an AK.  The man shot and killed his estranged wife and wounded his little kid in front of the court house.  The CHL holder tried to stop the man by shooting him twice in the chest.  The bad guy was wearing body armor concealed under a heavy jacket.  By the time citizen noticed the bad guy wasn't going down it was to late.  The bad guy returned fire and killed him.  One or more cops were also killed.   This was all over the news yesterday and I would venture to say if the citizen had a Five-seveN his chances of survival would have been alot better double-tapping the guy in the chest with this "Evil Round". Just my .02 MadDog

Can't argue with that.

maddog i seen whatthe 5.7 can do at the range last week and i can tell you first hand it will go thru more drywall and bullet proof vest then you can imagine,And the guy in Texas should have never went to a fight with a handgun while a BG has a AK,Like taking a knife to a gun fight

Maybe he shouldn't have gone into the gunfight (handgun vs. AK & body armor).  He probably let his emotions get a hold of him...hard not to if you witnessed some nut gunning down a child with an AK.  I just hope the anti-gunners don't use this poor citizen's death as "proof" that CCW permits and guns in the hands of citizens don't deter crime.

We all know what happened at the Hollywood Shootout. The cops were seriously outgunned (handguns vs. fully auto AKs & body armor).  They ended up having to "raid" local gun shops for better weapons.

Here in Georgia, state mandate academies (and most local police academies) "teach" you to fire two to the chest, and one to the head (failure drill).  The whole purpose of this drill is in case you have to shoot a suspect wearing a vest or high on PCP.  I guess what I'm trying to get at is that good training can level the playing field when you are "outgunned", but by only so much.  

I would love to see states to "require" holders of CCW permits to go throw a course of fire similar to ones used by police agencies, with qualifying scores and all.  Also "mandatory" requalifications, say once every six months.  Here in Georgia, just apply for a CCW, pay your fee, and wait for it in the mail.

Of course, all of this would take time, money, resources, etc that the state would not be willing to pay for.  States will gladly take money from CCW permit fees, expecting joe-blow citizen to "master" the fine art of using a handgun on his/her own.  

Just my $.10

Bikecop29

IMHO it is a special purpose weapon built to defeat light body armor with a handgun.  Probably works well for that.  Certainly not my choice for a CCW weapon or for home defense.  Watch-Six

We all know what happened at the Hollywood Shootout. The cops were seriously outgunned (handguns vs. fully auto AKs & body armor).  They ended up having to "raid" local gun shops for better weapons.

But the officers hit the suspects repeatedly with 9mm's. If they had been repeatedly hit with 5.7mm's the suspects would have either died immediately or been slowed down to the point of inability to continue shooting.

Be careful when asking for opinions. Opinions without data are worthless. This thread is loaded with opinions and few, if any, facts. The only evidence against the 5.7mm that has ever been produced is the lab testing (some of it on the prototype SS-90) by various ballistics experts. Again, these experts gave opinion, not data. (at least not any data that I have ever seen) Their opinion of what penetration depth (which with the 5.7mm is about 10 inches, the average human being 9.8 inches thick) is sufficient.

It all boils down to the fact that people don't like the message that the Five-seveN bears: 'your weapon is becoming obsolete'. Therefore, the instant reaction towards the Five-seveN is negative. Comments such as 'I'll keep my .45' and 'my .45 works fine' are quite immature. This attitude got Mark Wilson (and others, due to his death) killed. After that shooting there is no longer any denying the use of a pistol capable of piercing armor. Body armor is in use with over half of the world's armies, and while that statistic doesn't affect us citizens, it does affect FN and our army. But body armor is also an issue in the civilian realm, as pointed out by MadDogDan.

If Wilson had been carrying a Five-seveN the shooting could be expected to have ended much sooner if not immediately. That is what has happened to any criminals police have shot with it. Altogether I know of about 15-20 people being shot and instantly killed with the 5.7mm out of either the P-90 or Five-seveN and that statistic is rising. (whether some here like it or not)

In case someone mentions that there are other AP-capable pistols, let me ask this: what other pistols will pierce both panels of a L2 vest (with SS192), hold 20 rounds, weigh much less than similar guns, provide a perfectly flat trajectory, and have half the recoil of a 9mm? CZ-52 will pierce one panel of L2 (barely), so it probably wouldn't be very capable of penetrating and killing after piercing the vest. The CZ-52 also lacks in the other points of the Five-seveN that I mentioned.

I will also address the 'headshot' and 'thighshot' comments that are bound to pop up. Personally, I would rather not repeatedly shoot the thighs trying to hit a specific artery, and afterwards wait for it to bleed out...while he is meanwhile moving constantly and firing back at me. I would rather be carrying a pistol (a rifle would be best, but you can't carry that on your hip all day) that will reach him even if he is wearing a vest and just shoot for the center. Not to mention that the chest area is a much wider target loaded with organs and the Five-seveN has a higher hit probability and gives twenty chances to hit him.

Same story with a head shot. Not easy at all when you are being fired upon in the heat of a battle and the target is moving. And would you always aim for the thighs, pelvis, or head in an engagement because you don't know if he is armored? Because if you aimed for center mass on an armored target (as you instinctively would if you didn't know he was) you would be dead just like Mr Wilson is.

In closing, I know the 5.7mm has the appearance of being a magic round, but I don't view it like that. Based on the EXTENSIVE amount of data I have come across while searching the web, I believe the 5.7's wounding ability is on par with other PISTOL calibers. But comparing it to a rifle round fired from a rifle isn't fair. The other details of the 5.7 such as I mentioned earlier are what makes it special.

-DmL

Here are some details from some of the shootings:

Houston PD shot a subject who was firing at them with an AR-15. The subject was hit in the chest and the bullet tumbled into his heart, cutting it into two pieces. The coroner remarked that he had never seen a wound like that. The bullet also did not exit his body. "In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either. "

In the assault on the Japanese embassy in Lima, Peru, which is where the P90/5.7 system first went operational, all of the hostage takers were eliminated through their level 3 body armor. This includes the leader who was hit with one round through his body armor and expired.

I have heard that there have been 3 recorded shootings with the five-seven, all within 10 yards, 2 of which dropped the BG like a sack of potatoes without leaving the body. the third went through the neck and out the other side, but there wasn't anything left in tact in the neck and the guy was dead before he hit the ground.

Bellevue NE. PD SWAT shot a Pit Bull this year. It took 2 shots fired from the Five-seveN to kill it. Anyone who knows anything about pit bulls knows that their central nervous system is not like human beings. They respond to aggressiveness differently than a human. It is a fight rather than a flight response. The animal doesn't think like a human being "hey I just got shot, I'm going to die" It thinks "I’ve been bit and I better bite back harder if I want to survive and I will keep biting until I kill" A dog is not a human and does not respond to inflicted injury the same. It is done by removing hydraulic fluid (blood) or shutting down electrical energy from the brain to the rest of the body.

A SWAT team was called to the scene after an armed man, identified as Benjamin "Benny" Griggs, fired at a police cruiser and then barricaded himself inside a house. The standoff between Griggs and the police began at approximately 12:35 p.m. Friday. Griggs refused to talk to police or surrender and continued to fire shots. Seeking to end the standoff, officers fired tear gas into the home at about 2:20 p.m. Griggs then came out of the house, firing at police. The SWAT exchanged semiautomatic gunfire with Griggs and then approached the house. A coroner pronounced Griggs dead at the scene.

One of our area SWAT teams uses it, that baby rocks. They have had a few incidents where the weapon was used and it stopped the BG cold. They have had very good results with the LE ammo.

I STRONGLY suggest your department contact some of the agencies which are using this round. Houston, TX PD issues the FN P90 for some SWAT uses. Fargo or Grand Forks, ND had a shooting using a P90 during a drug raid a couple years ago. The shooting was about 4-5 years ago and resulted in a near instant fatality.

I read a small blurb on one of the other forums that stated the foreign security police who were issued the FiveseveN were extremely pleased with its terminal performance.

As one who has actually used the P90 for tactical operations I can say that it is a devastating round despite its small size. From our initial training, I recall the fact that no one has survived being shot by the P90.

-DmL

Best regards DmL5...thanks for the data.  

Quoted: Best regards DmL5...thanks for the data.

Glad to provide it. And in case you're wondering, my 'opinions' remark was not aimed at you, but at the problem of those who post data-less opinion. I'll go back and edit my post to better get across what I meant..I have no problem with anyone asking for opinions.

-DmL

I agree with MADDOGDAN, and his commentsheadbang.gif.  The FN Five-seveN is a fine pistol.  Nothing wrong with using it for CCW.  Most of the nay sayers are just repeating have

by the way, i read in a gun rag that "secrete service tests have show the ss192/190 has 3 times the stopping power of a 9mm+p+ cartrige" or something like that

it was in special weapons for mil and police by leroy thompson

does that sound right?

Quoted: If anything it's too much gun. This is a cop killer if i've ever seen one. 20 round magazine with rounds capable of armor piercing? What else do you want to do, take out the guiderod and replace it with a missle launcher?

It doesnt havea a guide rod silly, its got a guide rail.

Just proof that the cops are all at the doughnut shop when you need one.  Outside a courthouse and this still happens.  I don't know that the 57 would even have penetrated the vest, but if the ccw holder would have had one he might still be with us.

If the 5.7 wouldn't penetrate a vest then why in Gods name are we taking all this crap from those who want to call this round a "Cop Killer"????

MadDog

Quoted: Just proof that the cops are all at the doughnut shop when you need one.  Outside a courthouse and this still happens.  I don't know that the 57 would even have penetrated the vest, but if the ccw holder would have had one he might still be with us.

+1

the 5-7 loaded w/ the 5.7 AP/HP round is not a guarantee against all vests; included the ones that the guys at the hollywood robery wore

i wonder, how about that HK mp7www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/smg/mp7/mp7.html--i heard that its smaller round provides better prnetration than the 5.7....

Quoted: Quoted: Just proof that the cops are all at the doughnut shop when you need one.  Outside a courthouse and this still happens.  I don't know that the 57 would even have penetrated the vest, but if the ccw holder would have had one he might still be with us. +1 the 5-7 loaded w/ the 5.7 AP/HP round is not a guarantee against all vests; included the ones that the guys at the hollywood robery wore i wonder, how about that HK mp7www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/smg/mp7/mp7.html--i heard that its smaller round provides better prnetration than the 5.7....

The AP 5.7mm round penetrates a CRISAT vest (1.6mm titanium + 20 kevlar layers) at 100 meters when fired from the Five-seveN. The HP round doesn't do much worse. In that case, it will pierce most any vest a criminal is likely to use.

NATO testing has shown the 5.7mm wounding ability to be nearly 30% better than the 4.6mm MP7 versus unprotected targets and 10% better versus protected targets.

Why not just have gernade launchers on every weapon we carry in case something happens

I think it makes a good home defense gun when equipt with a few 20 round mags and a bright light, I got myself the other night in the vanity mirror and it hurt.

Quoted: Just proof that the cops are all at the doughnut shop when you need one.  Outside a courthouse and this still happens.

Why the dig against the Police?  I saw the video, and I saw numerous Police Officers running out to confront, and shoot at the bad guy.  Even though they were out gunned.  Seems pretty brave to me!

Seems like now there's a glut of 20-rnd mags, but no ammo -- exactly the reverse of the situation just a couple months ago.

For rabid rabbits.

Quoted: If anything it's too much gun. This is a cop killer if i've ever seen one. 20 round magazine with rounds capable of armor piercing? What else do you want to do, take out the guiderod and replace it with a missle launcher?

This is plain dumb. Cop killer are the felons themselves... and they need not any special gun to kill cops. Are you some kind of antigunner? I own a terrible black, Mega capacity, armor piercing shooting, optically sighted, semiautomatic, flash suppressed, tactically gripped, concealable handgun and I can assure you that it is not a cop killer nor would I choose it as my first option if I ever wanted to commit that terrible act.

... and the missile launcher part?!?!?!?! You are a troll dude.

Quoted: Quoted: If anything it's too much gun. This is a cop killer if i've ever seen one. 20 round magazine with rounds capable of armor piercing? What else do you want to do, take out the guiderod and replace it with a missle launcher? Kevin...  What are you doing?  Just when people are starting to accept you as a "non-troll?"  You go and say something asinine like that?  I've been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but throwing around gun fearing wussy language like that you make me wonder.  You're not a Kennedy are you?  Please tell me it was a joke?  I don't mean anything personal, and I'm not attacking you, just...  Help us out here!

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this gun. I've almost bought one many times and WILL own one soon, but this gun is a bit over the top. 20 round mags, hollow point, ARMOR PIERCING. Why in the fuck would you EVER in the line of personal defense need an ARMOR PIERCING round? Not that i'm complaining but you just wouldn't need it.


And if you can't tell that the missle launcher comment was pure joking sarcasm then you are a fucking idiot.

KevinCA316 -

You haven't been watching the news.  Had the Texas citizen that tried to stop the AK wielding (body armor wearing) crazy had a Five-seveN he probably would be alive today.  He double tapped the BG in the chest but was uneffective due to hidded body armor (under jacket).

MadDog

And if you think 20rds, armor piercing and hollow points are over the top or too much gun thenYOU ARE a sissy.
**** by the way, they are not armor piercing ammunition, they happen to pierce armor.

Who said it was too much gun? I LOVE this gun. I think it's probably the coolest damn gun out there. All i'm saying is your average american will never be able to utilize it's full capabilities. This was a military gun, that's it's primary use IMO, that and cutting through Police issue body armor like a hot knife through butter. AS much as I love it this gun was eventual, but probably better left un-done. Just one more thing for the men in blue to have to get up and fear everyday. Ever see Lethal Weapon 3?

Kevin,

I mean this in the nicest way possible:

You're an idiot.

Please shut up.

Thanks!

Here is the story as reported by some California news group
www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20050225-0348-townsquareshootings.html

And a similar discussion hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=225796&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

This is what eventually took down the gunman after a long and dangerous car chase/shoot out with police.
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/upload/030305ngun_lg.jpg
Great for CCW! Im aw just kiddin. heavy.gif

Bust seriously! I wish people would just understand that the Five SeveN and the MP7 are not pee shooters and they are not hey

Quoted: This was a military gun, that's it's primary use IMO, that and cutting through Police issue body armor like a hot knife through butter.

Nice.

I seem to recall another weapon, AR something or other, that was a military gun first FWIW.

Don't be an anti.