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Posted: 3/12/2006 7:15:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wolfgang12]
During last summer I bought a Kel-Tec P3AT and some personal defense "defender" ammo produced by MagSafe. I often practiced with my Kel-Tec at the range using standard Federal American Eagle, but due to the extreme cost, never fired the MagSafe ammo. I carried concealed with MagSafe in the magazine and chamber for 9 months due to their claims for stopping power and safety.
Three weeks ago I was at the range and decided to try the MagSafe. On the first shot, the back of the cartridge peeled apart like a grape. The magazine blew out the bottom of the pistol, the slide bent and blew off the top, the frame split on the left side and every rivet blew out. My hand was blackened like in a bad Roadrunner/Wiley Coyote movie, but not injured. The gun collapsed into a pile of debris. My gunsmith called MagSafe and was told OH YEAH. WE'VE BLOWN UP TWO OF THOSE PISTOLS WITH OUR AMMO. WE NOW HAVE A STICKER ON THE PACKAGE THAT SAYS DO NOT USE WITH KEL-TEC P3AT. They said their ammo is extremely hot and exceeds SAMI specs (though it's not marked +P or +P+). Then they seemed to get personal about my level of intelligence and ability to read. Note, there was no warning sticker about the P3AT on the package I bought last year. Kel-Tec was concerned immediately, and indicated that the gun is designed to break down under a KB such as this to protect the shooter by dissipating the force of the explosion. They wanted to examine the parts to learn from this accident. They offered complete replacement of the gun, even though it was clearly the over-juiced ammo at fault. Thursday the brand new replacement arrived with the same serial number as the destroyed gun, so I don't have a lot of registraion gymnastics to do here in the Peoples' Republik of New York. Thank you Kel-Tec, for your concern and for the outstanding positive customer relations you demonstrated. MagSafe will never ride in my guns again, as my opinion is that it is unsafe.   
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:04:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Thanks for posting this Wolfgang. I noticed when looking at a round placed in the chamber of mine, there is a lot of unsuported cartridge in the area by the ramp. I suspect that is the place the case blew out.
I wonder even though we don't have an official moderator for this forum, if we can get one of the other mods to pin this thread. Seems like one to leave up top. |
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:11:11 PM EDT
[#2]
That's where it blew out. They use Remington brass, but state that it is not once-fired.
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:29:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: OODA_Loop]
[#3]
I think mag-safe is a solution looking for a problem, and you would be better served by Speer gold-dot, Federal HS, Golden Saber, or any other modern 9mm JHP made by a major manufacturer.
www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/article432.htm www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm But it's good to know that Kel-Tec took care of you, and that you're ok. |
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:36:09 PM EDT
[#4]
Because of all the stories I've heard of Kel-Tec's customer service, when I get he money, I will be purchasing 1 maybe 2 of their new 9mms coming out.
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:37:22 PM EDT
[#5]
I have read a story like this elsewhere. One more reason to avoid Magsafe's overpriced, overhyped ammo. Shame on you wolfgang12 for not putting at least 50 rounds of this ammo through your P3AT before carrying it. Can't say I blame you for not wanting to spend $100+ for the trial run, though. All this for 4-5" of penetration.
 Try some Speer Gold Dots or some CorBon DPX.  BTW, Magsafe is not the same as MagTech (for those who might confuse the two). |
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:42:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Dayum! Glad you are OK! I'm glad you arent out your blster, too. Did you get any pictures?
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:46:34 PM EDT
[#7]
ThePirate is right. I should have tried the MagSafe right away. ...and I should have found a good lawyer, too. |
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:50:23 PM EDT
[#8]
Thankfully, you weren't hurt badly. Since Kel-Tec is taking care of your gun, it is a pretty inexpensive lesson when you think about it. Something all of us can learn from.
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Posted: 3/12/2006 11:35:07 PM EDT
[#9]
My P3AT likes Winchester Ranger T hollow points just fine. I'll stick with 'em. As to the lawyer, they'd have gone more after Kel Tech than Mag Safe possibly. Both for sure. Fortunately, you wern't hurt, but the lawyers might not have felt that way. They'd probably prefer an injury for the potential awards I'd guess. Anyway, alls well that ends well. Hopefully, others will benefit from your troubles.
I've PM'd one of the handgun mods to see if we can get this tacked. Thanks again! |
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Posted: 3/12/2006 11:42:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Kel-Tec will definitely be getting some of my money this year. I have heard nothing but good things about their products and their customer service.
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Posted: 3/13/2006 12:19:52 AM EDT
[#11]
Nothing wrong with the performance of the Ranger Ts, if you can get them. If Magsafe's ammo exceeds SAAMI specs as per wolfgang12, it wouldn't be Kel-Tec that is liable IMO. As you said, the real issue is the damages - since the injury wasn't serious, it probably isn't worth the effort of a lawsuit. |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 6:45:23 PM EDT
[#12]
I'm impressed with the gun manufacture's response.
That is a class act! |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 6:50:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Good info, Thanks.
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MO, USA
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Posted: 3/14/2006 6:58:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Thats good of Kel-Tec agreeing to replace your pistol. But since it was magsafe that blew up your gun, I'd insist they replace it. Probably won't work out, but it'd make me feel better
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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2006 7:31:36 AM EDT
[#15]
It ain't too late.... call Jon Gutmacher This dude is gun friendly and damn good. He helped a friend of mine out of a real jam last year . |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2006 3:50:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Why would he sue? The gun is being replaced, no one was hurt....last thing this world needs is one more lawsuit.
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Posted: 3/15/2006 6:21:09 PM EDT
[#17]
I don't think it will be worth his time for a bruised hand, but you never know. The link is a good one to have, especially for anyone who lives in Florida and carries. Good reference FB41. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 6:35:21 PM EDT
[#18]
That's just one of the reasons that I'm a fan, and customer, of George. He stands by his product line. Unlike some companies I won't mention that go by the philosophy that if the gun breaks into two pieces, you now own both halves.
I met George on one occasion, and had a very good conversation. It was at the SHOT Show in ATL and they were showing the (new at that time) P32. Which I bought as soon as it was available. I've owned 5 KT pistols, and #6 is the PLR16 (shoots .223/AR mags) that I'll be picking up in about a week. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 11:21:47 PM EDT
[#19]
When you take into consideration how many guns they actually sell, their customer service reputation is even more remarkable. It just stands to reason that the more customers you have, the more problems you will hear about. Yet practically all the reports indicate the highest level of service. Amazing.
My next pistol will be a PF-9, but I would like a PLR-16 eventually. |
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Posted: 3/16/2006 9:41:51 AM EDT
[#20]
Yes, I'm sold on Kel-Tec. Great service has built many empires, including IBM's. I will own many Kel-Tecs in the future.
Bad customer relations will kill a product just as fast as a bad product. That's why I cannot understand MagSafe's extremely negative response. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 3/16/2006 5:11:52 PM EDT
[#21]
Agreed with the above, I have been extremely happy with Kel-Tec.
I will get a P-11 one day (I have a couple things before it on my list) |
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Posted: 3/16/2006 10:53:15 PM EDT
[#22]
I asked to mod here with no response  It has to be a staff member to tack. My Mod powers are useless in here.  I try again. |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 7:45:56 PM EDT
[#23]
damn! glad you're ok. yet another reason i will be buying my second Kel Tec this week. Those guys are AWESOME!
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Posted: 4/14/2006 7:09:53 PM EDT
[#24]
wow,
i am glad to see you were not injured. for the record most of us that have been shooting awhile highly regard magsafe as complete crap ammo anyway. i carry a p3at also almost daily and while i hate yours blew, i am glad to see they hold up well. when you really want something mees up your drawers do that with a plr16 
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MO, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2006 12:21:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: KCMojo]
[#25]
Thanks for the info and pics. Glad you are not hurt.
Happy with my new Sub 2000 that I picked up Sat! Standing behind their produts, that is what I love about my Rugers and now Kel-Tec! |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2006 8:12:31 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 6/23/2006 3:29:31 PM EDT
[#27]
What? Don't you know that they offer the very best performance against Alpine mountain goats?!?! 
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Posted: 6/23/2006 3:34:51 PM EDT
[#28]
damn, i just got my zombie loads done and now i have to worry about alpine mountain goats! |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/10/2006 5:02:23 PM EDT
[#29]
Wow, interesting story - glad Keltec made good, even if they didn't have to!
Visit: www.handgunforum.net/ |
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Posted: 7/10/2006 5:12:41 PM EDT
[#30]
a) I don't know what persuaded you to buy magsafe. I don't see it on ANYONE'S list of suitable defense ammo's (yet it is ALWAYS in gunstores- tells you more about profit margin than stopping power).
b) kel tec customer service was just as quick, kind with me as well when I sent my P11 back to make it drop free. they shipped it back on their dime and did the whole job for free. this is awesome! 
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TN, USA
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Posted: 7/14/2006 4:22:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Glad to see you were not hurt. I had an issue with my P32 caused by me, sent it to Kel-Tec and it was repaired and shipped back to me at no charge. They have great customer service and have earned a loyal customer.
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Posted: 9/27/2006 12:20:30 PM EDT
[#32]
KEL-TEC has been so good lately, The replaced my mag catch button on my P3AT for free and even gave me another one.
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Posted: 9/27/2006 12:38:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AJ-IN-JAX]
[#33]
NOTE TO SELF: Don't use Mag(UN)Safe ammo.
----- I just checked their website, you'd think they'd put some type of warning saying not to use this ammo in a Kel-Tec. |
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Posted: 9/28/2006 7:42:23 PM EDT
[#34]
They now have a sticker on the pack that reads "DO NOT USE IN KELTEC P3AT" |
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Posted: 9/28/2006 10:07:54 PM EDT
[#35]
it should read. unsafe for use in ANY firearm. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 9/28/2006 11:20:49 PM EDT
[#36]
It should read: "way out of SAAMI spec, enjoy your hand grenade".
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/7/2006 8:46:01 PM EDT
[#37]
Wow, I am glad I didnt buy any magsafe for mine! I had no idea. I had some for my .45 Glock 36, but my funshop advised me on DPX ammo so I switched to that for defense ammo. I am wondering if I want to toss that stuff out now or what. I dont want to kill my 36, its my first pistol, my favorite gun, and my carry gun! I also have a P32 in a wallet holster now, for when I want to carry two guns or cant carry my 36.
Once again thanks for lookin out!! |
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Posted: 10/7/2006 10:05:13 PM EDT
[#38]
good rule of thumb..... STAY AWAY FROM ANY AMMO WITH A GIMMICK |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 11/17/2006 1:44:24 AM EDT
[#39]
I've been carrying my keltec for a year or so, pretty accurate for a mouse gun.
Works like a charm , hides well too :) |
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Posted: 12/17/2006 2:15:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: okguy91]
[#40]
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PA, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2006 11:18:48 PM EDT
[#41]
All the Kel-tecs I have owned have been great! P-11 and p-32 my sister has a p-32 and many friend have bought them after trying mine or just being introducted to it! as far as that Mag safe ammo Any 380 pistol except for the colt mustang 380 is a blow back design so that hat of a ammo in most of these pistol is not good. They are going to hurt somebody!!!! Wheres the BATF when you need them
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Posted: 12/29/2006 12:23:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Since a GREAT friend of mine helped me get into Handloading Ammo on a budget  I've been learning a TON about SAAMI specs, loads & data, ballistics/bullet performance, C.U.P. pressures, etc...Then when I READ about the *OUTRAGEOUS* claims on the backs of their packaging I immediately knew ONE THING about MagSafe ammo! It's *NOT* "SAFE" ammo, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve their Velocity Claims while still remaining within SAAMI Safety Specs... You'd need a HEAVILY supported chamber, barrel, and slide/frame in order for a gun to handle the INSANE pressures they load into their ammo. Yes, it's Remington Brass, and it IS NOT 'reloaded'. You can buy Remingtong Brass new, never fired for pretty cheap. It's good brass, but it'll still not handle that kind of pressure very well at all as you've learned... I'm glad to hear that you escaped the KABOOM intact, and I'm JUST AS GLAD to hear about the great support & responsive service from Kel-Tec!!! -inuhbad |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/20/2007 7:47:29 PM EDT
[#43]
This kinda reminds me about the warning in my P7M8 manual. It says, quote" Caution: There is an influx of surplus 9mmx19 ammunition on the American market. Do not use 9mmx19 ammunition specifically loaded for Submachine Guns." This MagSafe stuff looks like it goes beyond the boundaries of even the hottest +P+ to duplicate ammo that is used in older open-bolt sub-guns. Even though we're talking about 380, HK must have had a bonefide excuse where even this all steel gun could be damaged if using 9mm military ammo made for an Uzi.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 6/9/2007 2:00:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Cannonball888]
[#44]
Dang.
Now I want to replace the rounds in my FIE Titan II. Anyone want six Magsafe .380 rounds real cheap PM me. |
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Posted: 6/9/2007 10:56:03 AM EDT
[#45]
Send them to Old_Painless for inclusion in a future Box O' Truth installment... should be interesting.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2007 4:04:18 PM EDT
[#46]
If they are built like glaser-safety slugs they get the extra velocity because the bullets are so much lighter.That bullet appears to have not gone into full battery, leaving an unsupported area right at the feed ramp.Which might also be the reason they are replacing your pistol. I've shot six glasers through my P-11 with nary problem[New Years eve accident, forgot which magazine I had in the gun]. Also several through 44mag, 45acp and 7.62x39. In larger calibers they are awesome on water filled targets i.e. 10 gal. pickle bucket....
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Posted: 7/15/2007 6:19:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: FlDiveCop71]
[#47]
TAG...
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NV, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2007 6:46:22 AM EDT
[#48]
It is only Kel-Tec's issue if the ammo was within the SAAMI pressure specs for .380ACP, which do not include a "+P" or "+P+" standard, BTW. Every knowledgeable opinion I have heard on the subject is that MagSafe loads this round waaay over the limit. Could have something to do with why MS hasn't sued KT.
Look at the the other loads available in .380, especially the hot ones by CorBon and tell me how the MagSafe is so much hotter and still somehow magically within pressure limits. Funny how no one else's ammo, even "boutique" ammo by CorBon/Glaser and Extreme Shock (  ) doesn't seem to be a problem in a Kel-Tec.IMO, you can add the word "dangerous" to "expensive" and "over hyped" when discussing MagSafe.
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Posted: 7/15/2007 7:51:01 AM EDT
[#49]
shoot ammunition that the keltec was designed to shot and you will have no problems.
this is NOT a heavy duty primary firearm designed for thousand of rounds of heavy use. it is a last ditch gun designed for standard amunition. yes it has an unsupported area similar to a glock. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/23/2007 8:06:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Clarkma]
[#50]
I have hot rod handloaded overloaded to see how much power I could get in:
P32 P3AT P11 PF0 P357Sig barrel in P40 P40 A) The P32, P11, and PF9 can easily double their power with hotter loads. B) The P357 and P40 can go up ~20%. C) But the P3AT is not going anywhere. It already is hot rod over loaded in many ways with factory SAAMI ammo. I own my weight in handguns, but I carry a P3AT, becuase if makes such big holes for how much is weighs. The P3AT is out of case support and on the raged edge of a case bulge with SAAMI pressures. The P3AT is out of safety margin with the thin chamber walls. It is the only pistol with thinner walls than a CZ52. The P3AT is not capable of any more bullet + gas momentum to be absorbed in the slide mass + barrel mass+ recoil springs + distributed mass and compliance of the shooter's hand. http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=17412&d=1097451713 |
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