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wolfgang12
Support your right to keep and arm bears.
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Posted: 3/12/2006 7:15:49 PM
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 4:01:15 PM by wolfgang12]
During last summer I bought a Kel-Tec P3AT and some personal defense "defender" ammo produced by MagSafe. I often practiced with my Kel-Tec at the range using standard Federal American Eagle, but due to the extreme cost, never fired the MagSafe ammo. I carried concealed with MagSafe in the magazine and chamber for 9 months due to their claims for stopping power and safety.

Three weeks ago I was at the range and decided to try the MagSafe. On the first shot, the back of the cartridge peeled apart like a grape. The magazine blew out the bottom of the pistol, the slide bent and blew off the top, the frame split on the left side and every rivet blew out. My hand was blackened like in a bad Roadrunner/Wiley Coyote movie, but not injured. The gun collapsed into a pile of debris.

My gunsmith called MagSafe and was told OH YEAH. WE'VE BLOWN UP TWO OF THOSE PISTOLS WITH OUR AMMO. WE NOW HAVE A STICKER ON THE PACKAGE THAT SAYS DO NOT USE WITH KEL-TEC P3AT. They said their ammo is extremely hot and exceeds SAMI specs (though it's not marked +P or +P+). Then they seemed to get personal about my level of intelligence and ability to read. Note, there was no warning sticker about the P3AT on the package I bought last year.

Kel-Tec was concerned immediately, and indicated that the gun is designed to break down under a KB such as this to protect the shooter by dissipating the force of the explosion. They wanted to examine the parts to learn from this accident. They offered complete replacement of the gun, even though it was clearly the over-juiced ammo at fault.

Thursday the brand new replacement arrived with the same serial number as the destroyed gun, so I don't have a lot of registraion gymnastics to do here in the Peoples' Republik of New York.

Thank you Kel-Tec, for your concern and for the outstanding positive customer relations you demonstrated.

MagSafe will never ride in my guns again, as my opinion is that it is unsafe.




When good people are willing to stand up for freedom, we will not be lost.
When brave people are willing to defend freedom, we will not be defeated
TBoneDetroit
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:04:56 PM
Thanks for posting this Wolfgang. I noticed when looking at a round placed in the chamber of mine, there is a lot of unsuported cartridge in the area by the ramp. I suspect that is the place the case blew out.

I wonder even though we don't have an official moderator for this forum, if we can get one of the other mods to pin this thread. Seems like one to leave up top.
T Bone (Detroit).


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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
wolfgang12
Support your right to keep and arm bears.
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:11:11 PM
That's where it blew out. They use Remington brass, but state that it is not once-fired.
When good people are willing to stand up for freedom, we will not be lost.
When brave people are willing to defend freedom, we will not be defeated
OODA_Loop
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:29:25 PM
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 9:32:44 PM by OODA_Loop]
I think mag-safe is a solution looking for a problem, and you would be better served by Speer gold-dot, Federal HS, Golden Saber, or any other modern 9mm JHP made by a major manufacturer.

www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/article432.htm

www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm


But it's good to know that Kel-Tec took care of you, and that you're ok.
FAIL-SAFE
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:36:09 PM
Because of all the stories I've heard of Kel-Tec's customer service, when I get he money, I will be purchasing 1 maybe 2 of their new 9mms coming out.
"Fire is our servant, whether it's melting s'mores or raining down on Charlie"- Prinsciple Skinner

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ThePirate
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:37:22 PM
I have read a story like this elsewhere. One more reason to avoid Magsafe's overpriced, overhyped ammo. Shame on you wolfgang12 for not putting at least 50 rounds of this ammo through your P3AT before carrying it. Can't say I blame you for not wanting to spend $100+ for the trial run, though. All this for 4-5" of penetration.

Try some Speer Gold Dots or some CorBon DPX.

BTW, Magsafe is not the same as MagTech (for those who might confuse the two).
HABU
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:42:44 PM
Dayum! Glad you are OK! I'm glad you arent out your blster, too. Did you get any pictures?
wolfgang12
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:46:34 PM

Originally Posted By ThePirate:
I have read a story like this elsewhere. One more reason to avoid Magsafe's overpriced, overhyped ammo. Shame on you wolfgang12 for not putting at least 50 rounds of this ammo through your P3AT before carrying it. Can't say I blame you for not wanting to spend $100+ for the trial run, though. All this for 4-5" of penetration.

Try some Speer Gold Dots or some CorBon DPX.

BTW, Magsafe is not the same as MagTech (for those who might confuse the two).



ThePirate is right. I should have tried the MagSafe right away.

...and I should have found a good lawyer, too.
When good people are willing to stand up for freedom, we will not be lost.
When brave people are willing to defend freedom, we will not be defeated
ThePirate
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:50:23 PM
Thankfully, you weren't hurt badly. Since Kel-Tec is taking care of your gun, it is a pretty inexpensive lesson when you think about it. Something all of us can learn from.
TBoneDetroit
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Posted: 3/12/2006 11:35:07 PM
My P3AT likes Winchester Ranger T hollow points just fine. I'll stick with 'em. As to the lawyer, they'd have gone more after Kel Tech than Mag Safe possibly. Both for sure. Fortunately, you wern't hurt, but the lawyers might not have felt that way. They'd probably prefer an injury for the potential awards I'd guess. Anyway, alls well that ends well. Hopefully, others will benefit from your troubles.

I've PM'd one of the handgun mods to see if we can get this tacked. Thanks again!
T Bone (Detroit).


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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
dalesimpson
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Posted: 3/12/2006 11:42:05 PM
Kel-Tec will definitely be getting some of my money this year. I have heard nothing but good things about their products and their customer service.
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ThePirate
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Posted: 3/13/2006 12:19:52 AM

Originally Posted By TBoneDetroit:
My P3AT likes Winchester Ranger T hollow points just fine. I'll stick with 'em. As to the lawyer, they'd have gone more after Kel Tech than Mag Safe possibly. Both for sure. Fortunately, you wern't hurt, but the lawyers might not have felt that way. They'd probably prefer an injury for the potential awards I'd guess. Anyway, alls well that ends well. Hopefully, others will benefit from your troubles.



Nothing wrong with the performance of the Ranger Ts, if you can get them.

If Magsafe's ammo exceeds SAAMI specs as per wolfgang12, it wouldn't be Kel-Tec that is liable IMO. As you said, the real issue is the damages - since the injury wasn't serious, it probably isn't worth the effort of a lawsuit.
FedGunner
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Posted: 3/13/2006 6:45:23 PM
I'm impressed with the gun manufacture's response.
That is a class act!
BallisticTip
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Posted: 3/13/2006 6:50:15 PM
Good info, Thanks.
"They're telling us they'd rather die than come out and surrender....so.. They're gonna die..."
pfccypret
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Posted: 3/14/2006 6:58:06 PM
Thats good of Kel-Tec agreeing to replace your pistol. But since it was magsafe that blew up your gun, I'd insist they replace it. Probably won't work out, but it'd make me feel better
FB41
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Posted: 3/15/2006 7:31:36 AM

Originally Posted By wolfgang12:

Originally Posted By ThePirate:
I have read a story like this elsewhere. One more reason to avoid Magsafe's overpriced, overhyped ammo. Shame on you wolfgang12 for not putting at least 50 rounds of this ammo through your P3AT before carrying it. Can't say I blame you for not wanting to spend $100+ for the trial run, though. All this for 4-5" of penetration.

Try some Speer Gold Dots or some CorBon DPX.

BTW, Magsafe is not the same as MagTech (for those who might confuse the two).



ThePirate is right. I should have tried the MagSafe right away.

...and I should have found a good lawyer, too.



It ain't too late.... call Jon Gutmacher

This dude is gun friendly and damn good. He helped a friend of mine out of a real jam last year .
pfccypret
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Posted: 3/15/2006 3:50:21 PM
Why would he sue? The gun is being replaced, no one was hurt....last thing this world needs is one more lawsuit.
ThePirate
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Posted: 3/15/2006 6:21:09 PM

Originally Posted By pfccypret:
Why would he sue? The gun is being replaced, no one was hurt....last thing this world needs is one more lawsuit.



I don't think it will be worth his time for a bruised hand, but you never know. The link is a good one to have, especially for anyone who lives in Florida and carries. Good reference FB41.
cheaptrickfan
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Posted: 3/15/2006 6:35:21 PM
That's just one of the reasons that I'm a fan, and customer, of George. He stands by his product line. Unlike some companies I won't mention that go by the philosophy that if the gun breaks into two pieces, you now own both halves.

I met George on one occasion, and had a very good conversation. It was at the SHOT Show in ATL and they were showing the (new at that time) P32. Which I bought as soon as it was available. I've owned 5 KT pistols, and #6 is the PLR16 (shoots .223/AR mags) that I'll be picking up in about a week.
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ThePirate
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Posted: 3/15/2006 11:21:47 PM
When you take into consideration how many guns they actually sell, their customer service reputation is even more remarkable. It just stands to reason that the more customers you have, the more problems you will hear about. Yet practically all the reports indicate the highest level of service. Amazing.

My next pistol will be a PF-9, but I would like a PLR-16 eventually.
wolfgang12
Support your right to keep and arm bears.
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Posted: 3/16/2006 9:41:51 AM
Yes, I'm sold on Kel-Tec. Great service has built many empires, including IBM's. I will own many Kel-Tecs in the future.

Bad customer relations will kill a product just as fast as a bad product. That's why I cannot understand MagSafe's extremely negative response.
When good people are willing to stand up for freedom, we will not be lost.
When brave people are willing to defend freedom, we will not be defeated
pfccypret
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Posted: 3/16/2006 5:11:52 PM
Agreed with the above, I have been extremely happy with Kel-Tec.

I will get a P-11 one day (I have a couple things before it on my list)
RobertM
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Posted: 3/16/2006 10:53:16 PM

Originally Posted By TBoneDetroit:
Thanks for posting this Wolfgang. I noticed when looking at a round placed in the chamber of mine, there is a lot of unsuported cartridge in the area by the ramp. I suspect that is the place the case blew out.

I wonder even though we don't have an official moderator for this forum, if we can get one of the other mods to pin this thread. Seems like one to leave up top.




I asked to mod here with no response

It has to be a staff member to tack.

My Mod powers are useless in here.

I try again.
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Napoleon_Tanerite
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Posted: 3/26/2006 7:45:56 PM
damn! glad you're ok. yet another reason i will be buying my second Kel Tec this week. Those guys are AWESOME!
Please disregard the previous message.

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The_Beer_Slayer
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Posted: 4/14/2006 7:09:53 PM
wow,

i am glad to see you were not injured.

for the record most of us that have been shooting awhile highly regard magsafe as complete crap ammo anyway.

i carry a p3at also almost daily and while i hate yours blew, i am glad to see they hold up well.

when you really want something mees up your drawers do that with a plr16
If Mona ever throws your ass out, I get first dibs.

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KCMojo
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Posted: 5/1/2006 12:21:42 AM
[Last Edit: 5/1/2006 12:25:54 AM by KCMojo]
Thanks for the info and pics. Glad you are not hurt.

Happy with my new Sub 2000 that I picked up Sat!

Standing behind their produts, that is what I love about my Rugers and now Kel-Tec!
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