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Posted: 6/29/2007 9:51:37 PM EDT
[#1]
I wondered the same thing.
Figured they are not seconds, has a great rep., and the price will not go down anytime soon. I got mine... |
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Posted: 6/30/2007 3:45:54 PM EDT
[#2]
where are you guys seeing these at? I am in need of a few boxes.
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Posted: 6/30/2007 5:13:07 PM EDT
[#3]
I know NOTHING about the ammo you're talking about, but I *can* tell you that around 1999 or so, Speer sold off a ton of this load in 50 round boxes marked "Not for LEO Use". Turns out that some of the ammo was loaded with a bad lot of primers, which would fail to ignite up to 5 rounds per 1000. Speer recalled this ammo and sold it all off for cheap, with a LOT of the ammo being perfectly fine, but not what they considered trustworthy enough to equip LEOs with.
I bought up a bunch at the time, and I shot off a case of it just to see how bad mine was, and I had zero failures. Other folks did report occasional bad rounds (click instead of BANG), but not very many. Again, all of that may have NO bearing on the ammo you're seeing, but then again, it could be the same exact ammo, since both were 124gr +P GD 9mm. -Troy |
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Posted: 6/30/2007 5:17:25 PM EDT
[#4]
There was a recent shooting involving speer gold dots. LEOs were using them in their 40cal pistols, and none of the gold dot pierced further than an inch into the perp. Its the big talk around my old SO right now, they had the autopsy stuff layin around and were talking about it.
*puts on flame suit* |
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Posted: 6/30/2007 5:43:24 PM EDT
[#5]
This I *HAVE* to see... -Troy |
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Posted: 6/30/2007 5:50:15 PM EDT
[#6]
I carry a .40 and Gold Dots. I have a hard time believing that. |
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Posted: 6/30/2007 6:10:57 PM EDT
[#7]
I've searched the internet so far without any luck... I'll get with the deputies I heard talking about it and see if I can get a link up for you. I'm gonna tag this.
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Posted: 6/30/2007 6:57:19 PM EDT
[#8]
Tagging this. I'm not raising the BS flag yet, but I've marched out to the flagpole with it.
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Posted: 7/1/2007 5:06:28 AM EDT
[#9]
Someone else was talking about 380 GDHP not penetrating a perp more than an inch after penetrating barriers- Is this an internet fishing story   http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=76&t=592032 Is this what you are talking about? |
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Posted: 7/1/2007 5:22:42 AM EDT
[#10]
Yeah 155 grain GD travelling 1150-1200 FPS
 Maybe 1 inch of penetration after it went through the perps car
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Posted: 7/1/2007 11:28:27 AM EDT
[#11]
Yeah, well, I think you can safely start hauling it up now. -Troy |
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Posted: 7/1/2007 1:08:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Alright how long and no link.
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Posted: 7/1/2007 5:21:53 PM EDT
[#13]
The deputy is on days off, and I'm not going to call em @ home for something like this. I'm gonna get in contact with em soon. :/
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Posted: 7/1/2007 5:34:51 PM EDT
[#14]
We had a shooting here a few months back. S.O also uses .40 Gold Dot 180gr. Had the opposite problem, seven hits on bad guy all passed through. From what I gather it was 3 then he stood up 3 more then he reached for his shotgun then 1 in the grape. Toxicology was negative.
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Posted: 7/1/2007 5:56:22 PM EDT
[#15]
One of the instructors I had at FLETC shot a guy four times with .40 Gold Dot 165's. He thought he was missing. Said every time he shot the guy just looked around. Finally he laid down, and looked around some more. Turns out all four were in the chest above the diaghram. The guy was dead from the first one, it just took him a while to figure it out. He had a fairly low level of alcohol in him, nothing else. |
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Posted: 7/2/2007 11:16:59 AM EDT
[#16]
Chicken Little, woulda got back sooner but been getting wet in the Snake River. I believe I have seen some here at the Equip. Exchange and on two other forums I frequent. I have seen them at good prices on Gunbroker.com also. Around $12.50 a box of 50 after factoring in the shipping.
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Posted: 7/3/2007 7:28:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Sorry it took so long guys! Got with the deputy today! Here is the powerpoint the FBI released on the matter. (I haven't looked @ it yet.)
members.cox.net/areskslan/PA%20Officer%20Involved%20Shooting%20112906.ppt Coulda been situational who knows. |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 7:55:21 PM EDT
[#18]
That's a good lesson all around.
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Posted: 7/3/2007 7:56:51 PM EDT
[#19]
looked over the PPT briefly. will have to read more closely into it. my dept is in the process of switching from the .40 180gr speer GDHP to the new federal .40 HST. the GDHP is prone to fail if fired through heavy clothing. the HST is designed to open up more reliably even after going through heavy clothing.
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Posted: 7/3/2007 8:00:59 PM EDT
[#20]
So the 40 failed or it didn't? The PP contradicts itself.
looks like that dog needed to be put down anyway... |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 8:02:45 PM EDT
[#21]
They say the 40 PASSED and the 223 failed. Because the .223 over penetrated I presume as they were JHP
Also its kinda interesting his tattoo says live by the gun die by the gun. heh |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 8:16:17 PM EDT
[#22]
thanks always wondered what the deal was with those I bought a few thousand 40sw been using them for bowling pin shoots for years with no failures |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 8:23:08 PM EDT
[#23]
I wish they would have posted the script or the audio for PP file. There's a lot of important detail missing.
To me, it seems like the perp was one of those guys who just don't go down when he's told to. It happens. |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 8:40:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Very very weird. They provide x-rays that show expanded .40 gold dots an inch below his skin, then immediately say it is IMPOSSIBLE for .40 to expand but penetrate show shallow.
 I don't see how they can say that. They could say it is "extremely unlikely" or "a random occurrence" but Impossible? There's the medical info to prove it! |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 8:46:39 PM EDT
[#25]
the way i read that was that there were 2 sets of evidence: 1) the evidence from the actual shooting (where .40 did poorly and .223 did well), compared and contrasted to 2) the results of the ballistics gel test (where .40 won and .223 failed). guess it's time to buy some +P for my 22 :P either way, looks like the presentation was put together by some hack desk jockey. wasn't too clear. |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 8:53:42 PM EDT
[#26]
.
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Posted: 7/3/2007 9:22:35 PM EDT
[#27]
Somebody should show this to OP, maybe down does somethng weird with hollow points.
ETA: ok I figured the PP out. OP should still do the test. 
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Posted: 7/3/2007 10:26:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Down was supposedly considered NYC Armor for thugs. The story is the down causes the Glaser safety rounds the NYPD were using at that time to break open before they reached the person. That's why the East Coast rappers all started wearing big down jackets. |
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Posted: 7/3/2007 10:39:37 PM EDT
[#29]
As far as I know, NYPD never used Glasers. Not in their 9mm, not in their .38specs. It was Wadcutters, then semi-wadcutters, then FMJ, then JSP, then FMJ, 124gr+P GDHP and 135gr+P GDHP(SB).
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Posted: 7/4/2007 4:41:14 AM EDT
[#30]
Guess it's time to start carrying ball ammo in my .40's....
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Posted: 7/4/2007 5:01:40 AM EDT
[#31]
+1 |
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Posted: 7/4/2007 6:02:47 AM EDT
[#32]
Wow...
That ankle and hip X-ray was interesting.... looks like .223 utterly decimated the bone when it struck it. |
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Posted: 7/4/2007 6:02:56 AM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 7/4/2007 6:05:17 AM EDT
[#34]
The lesson I got out of that is that sometimes you have to shoot MFers alot!
Hell, even a 12 gauge won't necessarily put a deer down RFT. |
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Posted: 7/4/2007 6:52:49 AM EDT
[#35]
A few years back, I hit a small doe in one lung and the heart at less than 10 yards with a 3" 12 ga Federal Hydra-shok sabot slug. As it was running away, I hit it again in one of its back legs. It went 200 yards before dying. When I gutted it, one lung was jelly and the heart was hamburger. The one hind leg was completely useless. Sometimes they just don't get the "die" message very well or quickly. |
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Posted: 7/4/2007 7:54:57 AM EDT
[#36]
This is pretty confusing. What kind of penetration did the police get in the suspects dog? It doesn't even say.
J/K. Seriously though, this took place over 3.5 minutes(if that is even correct). How long did it take officers to return fire and get hits after they were ambushed? Like another member stated, a deer ran 200 yards even after having his hydraulics blown out. A human being can still perform at nearly full capacity for about 30 seconds even after taking a hit to the blood pump. That shot to the neck looks pretty suspicious. I wonder if it was a ricochet off a car hood or something. The tissue in the neck is pretty soft and not likely to stop a bullet before it expands. The article says the SWAT officers shot out his ankles under a car. I bet most of those rounds hit him through a vehicle. Especially considering their placement. Those are body parts that would normally be covered (except the neck) when firing from behind concealment. Those bullets would have had to be moving pretty slow to give such shallow penetration. Something must have slowed them down. Its hard to accurately judge penetration from those X-rays because they are all AP shots. No lateral pics. The neck shot looks like it entered while the goblin was leaning forward and entered at a downward angle. I bet it skipped off the hood or something. Once again we see the old saying, "Pistol bullets poke holes in things. Rifle bullets tear shit up." |
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Posted: 7/4/2007 7:58:17 AM EDT
[#37]
Very interesting
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Posted: 7/4/2007 10:19:37 AM EDT
[#38]
Based on some of the responses here I think alot of people are missing the point of that PP. The first part you read is the intial stuff that was posted by the LEO's without having all the facts.
Later it states the facts and shows the x-rays to prove that the .40S&W did expand and penetrated further than the intial report stated. On the other hand the 5.56mm did not perform they way it was expected to by not fragmenting and pentrating all the way through with nice neat holes. |
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Posted: 7/4/2007 3:30:55 PM EDT
[#39]
That was how I interpreted it as well. They said the .40 performed to FBI standards while the TAP did not. I wish there was more data to look at. That PP leaves me with more questions than answers. It would be disappointing however if the TAP used was indeed the 75 gr OTM and that none of those rounds fragmented at such close range. But again, there's just too little information to make any solid conclusion from. Assumptions are about all we have. And you know what they say about assumptions. |
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Posted: 7/4/2007 4:36:54 PM EDT
[#40]
a shining example of needing 45 or better
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Posted: 7/4/2007 6:59:15 PM EDT
[#41]
"The pistol is used to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never sat down."
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Posted: 7/5/2007 1:14:30 AM EDT
[#42]
Obviously another who didn't read the thread or understand the PP. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:17:35 AM EDT
[#43]
Good info to know.
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:42:58 AM EDT
[#44]
Maybe I'm blind. But I see in the X-rays and photos that the .223 did damage and the .40 did not. Everything else in that PP was pretty much bullshit. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 4:58:39 AM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 7/5/2007 6:16:39 AM EDT
[#46]
That is the dumbest quote I ever see posted. It does not apply to every situation. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 6:33:49 AM EDT
[#47]
I find the report to be lacking quite a bit. Without showing the bullet paths on the Xrays, it's pretty much useless in assessing ammunition performance. They also never discussed why the .223 rounds "failed".
The most important point everyone should take away from this is that a determined assailant will take a lot to bring down. I have arguments all the time with people who apparently think that if they've shot someone once, he'll just lay down and be done for, or that a gunfight will be just like double-tapping a paper target at the range, with two hits to the chest being an easy challenge. As is clearly evident, you don't have the luxury of slow, aimed fire and just hitting the target at all will be an accomplishment. A psycho such as this guy will only go down when he's physically unable to continue. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 3:12:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Was this packaged in the original packaging? The stuff on the EE and gunbroker are in the original boxes and sealed in the original carton. I found this on another forum: "I do remember seeing the repackaged "seconds" from Speer at Gander Mtn. a few years back.....BUT.... If it had been originally sold as civillian ammo, nothing would have been said. The problem was that the velocities were all over the place, it wasn't consistant enough & the F.B.I. found it in their lab during lot to lot testing. It all would go bang, just some were a bit faster/slower than others & the feds made CCI take it back. We have a friend that's a L.E. dist for Speer/CCI/Blount/whoevertheyarethisweek... & found out about it thru him. Many places bought large quantities of it & re-sold it as "Bulk, non packaged Speer ammo" using a song & dance about WHY it was in bulk. Some big names, too." |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 3:39:28 PM EDT
[#49]
Lack of penetration, and incomplete expansion Evidently you did not read it well, shot placement is critical, and .45 gives a large margin of error, as well as more stopping power than .40 could ever dream of. |
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Posted: 7/5/2007 5:32:06 PM EDT
[#50]
Re-read it, you are still misinterputing it. The first part that is presented is all false. And that last sentence that you wrote tells me alot. |
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