User Panel
Posted: 4/19/2010 7:00:42 AM EDT
In a recent class with ToddG of Pistol-Training.com I had the opportunity to shoot the FAMS TPC, the old qualification the Air Marshalls used to use in the pre-9/11 days. To pass it generally requires someone to be a fairly skilled handgunner.
I'm sort of upgrading this to a challenge. Lots of people carry concealed and think that their skill level is adequate to the task, but in my experience few have ever tried to actually quantify their skill level by comparing themselves to a reasonable standard. Here we're presented with what is admittedly a very high standard that was actually used by a federal LE organization that operates entirely from concealed carry. While I don't necessarily think this is the ultimate benchmark of someone's suitability for handling a firearm in a critical moment, it's still a useful exercise to have people compare themselves to a published standard to see how they fare. So the challenge is to try the drill using either of the "challenge approved" targets (only one is the real qual target) according to the rules and post up the scores in the format presented. Also post the equipment used in the same format. Target: http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=FBI-QITCB The actual Q target used, AFAIK. Also acceptable: http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=IALEFI-Q Because targets seem to be an issue, I'll expand the rules to basically be anything that qualifies as an FBI Q target, since that's basically what these targets are based on. If you can get your hands on 1 FBI Q target and use it as a template to draw or paint or otherwise produce targets with the same dimensions, that's fine. One possible method is find an FBI Q target, cut out the bottle-shaped Q section, and then use it as a template to paint something like an IDPA target or paper target with cheap spraypaint to produce a challenge-worthy target. All shots taken at 7 yards. (No closer under any circumstances) Course of fire: 1. Draw from concealment and fire one round on target. Run twice. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 3.30 seconds. 2. From the ready position, fire two shots into the target. Run twice. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 2.70 seconds. 3. From the ready position, fire six shots into the target. Time between shots cannot exceed .6 seconds, overall time cannot exceed 3.0 seconds. 4. From the ready position, one shot, a speed reload (slide forward on loaded chamber, drop mag, replace mag) and another shot on target. Run twice. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 6.5 seconds. 5. From the ready position, one shot fired on two targets set 3 yards apart. Run twice. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 3.30 seconds. 6. Face 180 degrees away from the target. From concealment, turn, draw, and fire one round on each of three targets. Run twice, turning to the left on one run, and to the right on the other run. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 7.0 seconds. 7. From the ready position, one shot then drop to one knee and execute a reload from slide lock, then one shot on the target. Run twice. Time for both runs added together cannot exceed 8.0 seconds. Scoring: Each shot within the white on the pictured target is multiplied by 5 to yield the number of points. Each shot outside the "bottle" or that touches the line is multiplied by 2 to yield the number of points. Anything that misses the shilouette is a miss and gives zero points. Maximum score of 150 points. 135 points and meeting all time standards required to pass. ....so can you do it? My run at the class resulted in a score of 139. I was over by .12 seconds on drill 4. (Had a malfunction) When I can find my sheet I'll post my full scores. Those brave enough can do the same if they like. As promised, my times: Drill - Run 1 - Run 2 1 - 1.47 - 1.63 2 - 0.87 - 0.80 3 - 1.67 4 - 2.64 - 3.98 5 - 1.16 - 1.07 6 - 2.50 - 2.51 7 - 3.23 - 3.63 Total score 139: PASS Time standards: FAILURE, drill 4. Total time 6.62 seconds. Comment: Over by .12 seconds due to a malfunction on run 2. Equipment used: Pistol: S&W M&P 9mm Holster: Safariland ALS belt holster carried strong side on the belt. Mags: Carried in Raven Concealment double magazine holder Concealment: Light Oakley casual jacket Please post your results in a similar format, that way we can compare. |
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That one shows FBI target, this link shows FAMS. Witch one is it.
http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=LTR-IICB-AM Either one, looks challenging. Would need practice to get the hang of it. 7 yards is not far should be no problem. Just need to be fast. And since is concealed that could be a problem. |
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That one shows FBI target, this link shows FAMS. Witch one is it. http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=LTR-IICB-AM To the best of my knowledge it's the target pictured in my post. Remember that quals have evolved in the FAMS since the old days (by "evolved" I mean dumbed down somewhat) and the target you linked to may be what they use for the current qual. |
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I'd take a run at it... doubtful that I'd pass on runs 1- .... uhm ...... 15ish.
Wait, can I use a .22? Please? |
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I think I could get close now.
With practice, maybe could down the road. GM |
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What is the "Run" part? Repeat same course of fire i believe. I think the biggest issue, at least for me is doing this from a concealed configuration. |
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What is the "Run" part? Two runs means you run that drill twice. I think the biggest issue, at least for me is doing this from a concealed configuration. Getting a shot on target from the draw in < 1.65 seconds twice from concealment is certainly a challenge for a lot of folks. So is doing a ~ 2 second reload. The difficulty is ameliorated somewhat by the BAT....Big Ass Target. |
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Quoted: The FBI Q is used for the TPC and the Transtar is used for the FLETC PPC. Quoted: That one shows FBI target, this link shows FAMS. Witch one is it. http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=LTR-IICB-AM To the best of my knowledge it's the target pictured in my post. Remember that quals have evolved in the FAMS since the old days (by "evolved" I mean dumbed down somewhat) and the target you linked to may be what they use for the current qual. |
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I can shoot the hostage target perfectly, with every shot. Remember that after you shoot the first hostage the rest of them just become witnesses...so game on. |
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I'm confident I could do it. I ran some of esentially the same courses except for #6 and #7 and didn't have much problems.
When I went through the instructor course for handgun/shotgun we did several of the "one shot quals" where you start from the holster, draw and shoot one shot, and your score depends on the tenth of a second you finished. |
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Just thought I would add: I am going to be trying these drills on my next range trip. Will post an AAR.
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Ive done it before, but I was not using a Sig P229 in 357 Sig like they do. I would have to practice to do it again
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Keep in mind that back in the day the FAMS had to show up and shoot that qual cold before every international flight.
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What is the "Run" part? Repeat same course of fire i believe. Oh! So they're not sprinting back and forth down the length of the plane shooting? This sounds like less fun now... |
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Keep in mind that back in the day the FAMS had to show up and shoot that qual cold before every international flight. Is there a range at every airport? Even close to one? While I am sure they did their qual drills often, and the two (new school) air marshals I know are pretty darn good with their pistols, I doubt the old schoolers practiced THAT much. Is there a reference to that anywhere? I think I'd get close on the quals, but won't likely pass the first try - for some reason I think I did an IDPA match that did much of those with movement. I certainly want to see someone do that with their Sig in a Galco Skyops holster, and make that time. |
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Is there a range at every airport? Even close to one? Somewhere on the premises of every international airport, at least. While I am sure they did their qual drills often, and the two (new school) air marshals I know are pretty darn good with their pistols, I doubt the old schoolers practiced THAT much. Is there a reference to that anywhere? I have that on the word of a guy who oversaw the FAMS handgun contract. |
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I think I could get damn close and with a little pratice running these drill I could do it.
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Quoted: Quoted: Keep in mind that back in the day the FAMS had to show up and shoot that qual cold before every international flight. Is there a range at every airport? Even close to one? While I am sure they did their qual drills often, and the two (new school) air marshals I know are pretty darn good with their pistols, I doubt the old schoolers practiced THAT much. Is there a reference to that anywhere? I think I'd get close on the quals, but won't likely pass the first try - for some reason I think I did an IDPA match that did much of those with movement. I certainly want to see someone do that with their Sig in a Galco Skyops holster, and make that time. All the old time guys did was train between trips. They flew a whole lot less, but did attend various SWAT schools all over the world and trained with everyone. The new guys train quite a bit as well. 40 hrs. per quarter is the minimum. I can't divulge a bunch of training for obvious reasons, but it is plentiful. Not every airport has a range either. BTW, all official quals are done with a thumb break holster. I don't like the SkyOps, but I have used a Galco Concealable without issue. A lot of our guys can clean the TPC shooting support hand only. When you shoot as many rounds as we do, it gets much easier. I believe I could shoot it cold right now and make it, but the only way to know is to shoot it. I'd be awfully damn close at least. |
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Quoted: Nope! I could get close though. With a few days lead time to practice, maybe. |
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I can do it on the FBI "bowling pin" target.
Used an M9 in a thumbreak converted UM84 |
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I saw this on Pistoltraining. Definitely taking a scoresheet with me for the next drills night.
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What kind of shot timers are you guys using?
I've been practicing and in dry fire I was getting an average of about 1.8 drawing from concealment (two shirts, combat cut Crossbreed IWB holster), going off safe, and squeezing off an aimed shot (dry) with a random start beep. I'm as low as 1.4 and as high as 2.2 when I'd snag on my shirt. This was with essentially zero pressure (no quals, spectators, competitors and certainly no one shooting at me). |
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I'm using a Competition Electronics Pocket Pro II and I set the par time at 1.6 seconds. I use what I carry a Glock 17 with Big Dots out of a Comp-Tac CTAC IWB holster covered by shirt.
If your new to this practice without the timer. Get used to doing everyting perfect, nice and slow build some muscle memory. Then challenge yourself. Remember smooth is fast |
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What kind of shot timers are you guys using? I've been practicing and in dry fire I was getting an average of about 1.8 drawing from concealment (two shirts, combat cut Crossbreed IWB holster), going off safe, and squeezing off an aimed shot (dry) with a random start beep. I'm as low as 1.4 and as high as 2.2 when I'd snag on my shirt. This was with essentially zero pressure (no quals, spectators, competitors and certainly no one shooting at me). PACT Club Timer III here. One of the better timers on the market, used by most of the pro instructors I've trained with. |
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Tag. I want to try this one next time I have a shot timer around.
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I could do it. ...so you'll post your scores, right? Edit: I've decided to change this and turn it into a challenge thread. The goal here is for people to be inspired to go out and try it in an effort to quantify where they are with handgun skills that would prove useful in a real life concealed carry scenario. Obviously this is going to be done on personal honor. My scores are somewhat different as they were recorded in front of a group of witnesses in a class centered around the concept of stress inoculation. Obviously it's best if you shoot this course of fire with a couple of other folks to keep it honest, but it's not absolutely necessary. Lying in the thread is nothing more than lying to yourself, which is ultimately just going to bite you in the end. |
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i dont think i could pass...not in those times
we'll see sometime i can make the range next |
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Thanks for posting.
I've been talking to another SO from our club and we're thinking of adapting this as our course of fire at one of our upcoming shoots. Should be an interesting challenge for participants. |
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Ive done it before, but I was not using a Sig P229 in 357 Sig like they do. I would have to practice to do it again So is this what they qualify with? Someone mentioned a thumb break holster, I am assuming they draw from concealment, and have to pop that thumb break? I want to try now. |
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Tag. I want to try this one next time I have a shot timer around. If you have an iphone their is a shot timer app from surefire that is free. I haven't had a chance to use it other than some clapping to see how it reported but you can set it up however you want and it will email your results if you want it to. Kind of a neat way to keep records really. |
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A challenge sounds like a great idea. Me and my group will work on the drill this week.
Remember its drawing from concealment. |
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I could do it. ...so you'll post your scores, right? Absolutely. It'll be a little while though. I have limited range access right now as it is and next weekend I'll be busy shooting in the SC IDPA state championship. One of the local clubs I shoot with is small, (but growing) and they're open to new ideas for match stages as well as things like side-matches. I'll see if I can work this thing in as a side-match or something. Again, it may be a while before I can make it happen. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Ive done it before, but I was not using a Sig P229 in 357 Sig like they do. I would have to practice to do it again So is this what they qualify with? Someone mentioned a thumb break holster, I am assuming they draw from concealment, and have to pop that thumb break? I want to try now. Originally, the holster was a open top DeSantis paddle. The current rig is a thumb break belt holster. Cover garment is mandatory. Weapon is Sig P229 firing Speer 124gr GDHP. I managed a 3 second 14 round rhythm drill with a Sig P250 today. That is quite the feat with the crap trigger. |
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I've been wanting to try this qual for a while now. John Wayne just motivated me to hurry up and do it. I will try it tomorrow, I don't think any of us here have a timer right now though. So the best I can do is run it as fast as I can and post a pic of my target. I've done the MEUSOC a few times and always found that to be a fun challenge.
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Great post... Its my goal to become a FAM in a few years (will be graduating college in about 6 months). I've been wanting to become one since I started college 3.5 years ago so I'm hoping I can make it happen, the job just seems ideal for me.
I'm going to have to start working on this drill and see how I do. Whats a good place to buy a timer? |
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If we can come up with a way to establish video evidence of successfully accomplishing said feat, I can award FAM Challenge coins to at least the first five who make it (probably a few more than that). I'm sure I can get together some other goodies as well. How's that for a challenge?
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When I get the chance to attempt it; I'll have the hat-cam rolling. Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6FFGenRhCU
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I'm up for the challenge.
The last three times I've shot the FBI qual. I've shot a 100%, a 96% and a 98% respectively. |
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