I bought a CIA tantal before I read here - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - I bought a CIA tantal before I read here (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 1/7/2010 3:36:16 AM EDT

Yep, it keyholes at 15 yards

, but at least the good folks at CIA are willing to have me send it back, there for giving the distributor a credit who will in turn give my dealer a credit then he will give me one

, better than nothing

Posted: 1/7/2010 4:18:17 AM EDT

[#1]

I'll never understand why people continue to buy from CIA - I guess it's the 'something for nothing' mind set.

Posted: 1/7/2010 5:14:57 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
I'll never understand why people continue to buy from CIA - I guess it's the 'something for nothing' mind set.

Because people keep posting that "CAI fixed their Tantals and Mine works fine".......

Posted: 1/7/2010 8:03:08 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
I'll never understand why people continue to buy from CIA - I guess it's the 'something for nothing' mind set.

I think what you need to understand is that there are many many people who buy from CAI that have had great experiences, not only with the service but with the products. Personally, I have bought tons of stuff from them and have never had an issue, my sales rep is great and always wiling to take care of my needs as a customer. Think of it like this, out of the thousands of Tantals sold by CAI there are maybe %10 of the folks posting reviews here and a few of the other sites, another %3 or %4 of them had bad tantals and the rest were good to go. Is it a crap shoot, maybe. But you get that anywhere. Century is the biggest importer selling to the public that I know of, and there are always bound to be folks that were not happy, some are just whining some are very legit. I read all the issues on the tantal on various sites before I bought one from CAI, I also talked to my sales rep about the issues and was told I'd have no problems and I didn't. So it's not a mind set, you just can't believe they're all bad just because there are a few dozen unhappy folks with them. I'm a Mac and my CAI Tantal is the beez nees!

Posted: 1/7/2010 8:48:48 AM EDT

[#4]

Roadie, congrats on being lucky and having a working CAI Tantal. Other CAI builds did not have the inherent issue of incorrect barrels quite like their Tantals did, so of course there are satisfied customers out there. "A few dozen unhappy folks" is a pretty big understatement, I've seen a couple keyhole firsthand, and none that didn't because those people never touched another CAI product again. You build a gun that sends bullets downrange sideways and you have the gall to say that it's the way the bullet is designed (look around for their statement on the issue- they quote wikipedia). The choice to use incorrect barrels is the sign of a company that cares more about a quick buck than the product that they don't stand behind. So once again, congrats on having a non-keyholing CAI Tantal, you should buy a lottery ticket.

Posted: 1/7/2010 3:23:54 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Roadie, congrats on being lucky and having a working CAI Tantal. Other CAI builds did not have the inherent issue of incorrect barrels quite like their Tantals did, so of course there are satisfied customers out there. "A few dozen unhappy folks" is a pretty big understatement, I've seen a couple keyhole firsthand, and none that didn't because those people never touched another CAI product again. You build a gun that sends bullets downrange sideways and you have the gall to say that it's the way the bullet is designed (look around for their statement on the issue- they quote wikipedia). The choice to use incorrect barrels is the sign of a company that cares more about a quick buck than the product that they don't stand behind. So once again, congrats on having a non-keyholing CAI Tantal, you should buy a lottery ticket.

+1

We are talking about the same company that gave us the "Wikipedia press release"

Yeah, lets tell people that CAI Tantals are GTG

But hey, this is a small list of members that reported keyholing CAI Tantals

1. Scotter260
2. GHPorter
3. Horis_mg34
4. 1moreAR
5. Kncook
6. Finslayer83 (2 keyholing Tantals)
7. terdferguson
8. 2000Z3M
9. cast1903
10. 1158
11. Kurt_D
12. MACD
13. nightrain5
14. madmerc
15. Silkyjla30
16. sherrick13
17. dgvastag
18. wedgehead (3 Keyholing Tantals)
19. 04ZREX
20. Obey
21. IANALY
22. BrokenMosin

Thats 25 keyholing Tantals from members here

Keyhole...whaat's the big deal...really?

Posted: 1/7/2010 7:23:46 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Roadie, congrats on being lucky and having a working CAI Tantal. Other CAI builds did not have the inherent issue of incorrect barrels quite like their Tantals did, so of course there are satisfied customers out there. "A few dozen unhappy folks" is a pretty big understatement, I've seen a couple keyhole firsthand, and none that didn't because those people never touched another CAI product again. You build a gun that sends bullets downrange sideways and you have the gall to say that it's the way the bullet is designed (look around for their statement on the issue- they quote wikipedia). The choice to use incorrect barrels is the sign of a company that cares more about a quick buck than the product that they don't stand behind. So once again, congrats on having a non-keyholing CAI Tantal, you should buy a lottery ticket.

+1

We are talking about the same company that gave us the "Wikipedia press release"

Yeah, lets tell people that CAI Tantals are GTG

But hey, this is a small list of members that reported keyholing CAI Tantals

1. Scotter260
2. GHPorter
3. Horis_mg34
4. 1moreAR
5. Kncook
6. Finslayer83 (2 keyholing Tantals)
7. terdferguson
8. 2000Z3M
9. cast1903
10. 1158
11. Kurt_D
12. MACD
13. nightrain5
14. madmerc
15. Silkyjla30
16. sherrick13
17. dgvastag
18. wedgehead (3 Keyholing Tantals)
19. 04ZREX
20. Obey
21. IANALY
22. BrokenMosin

Thats 25 keyholing Tantals from members here

Keyhole...whaat's the big deal...really?

been taking notes much?

Posted: 1/8/2010 2:09:34 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Roadie, congrats on being lucky and having a working CAI Tantal. Other CAI builds did not have the inherent issue of incorrect barrels quite like their Tantals did, so of course there are satisfied customers out there. "A few dozen unhappy folks" is a pretty big understatement, I've seen a couple keyhole firsthand, and none that didn't because those people never touched another CAI product again. You build a gun that sends bullets downrange sideways and you have the gall to say that it's the way the bullet is designed (look around for their statement on the issue- they quote wikipedia). The choice to use incorrect barrels is the sign of a company that cares more about a quick buck than the product that they don't stand behind. So once again, congrats on having a non-keyholing CAI Tantal, you should buy a lottery ticket.

+1

We are talking about the same company that gave us the "Wikipedia press release"

Yeah, lets tell people that CAI Tantals are GTG

But hey, this is a small list of members that reported keyholing CAI Tantals

1. Scotter260
2. GHPorter
3. Horis_mg34
4. 1moreAR
5. Kncook
6. Finslayer83 (2 keyholing Tantals)
7. terdferguson
8. 2000Z3M
9. cast1903
10. 1158
11. Kurt_D
12. MACD
13. nightrain5
14. madmerc
15. Silkyjla30
16. sherrick13
17. dgvastag
18. wedgehead (3 Keyholing Tantals)
19. 04ZREX
20. Obey
21. IANALY
22. BrokenMosin

Thats 25 keyholing Tantals from members here

Keyhole...whaat's the big deal...really?

been taking notes much?

I would say that I probably saw about as many in your list on other forums, so maybe there are a hundred or so folks that have posted their key-holing issue, and by no means am I saying that there is no issues with the older CAI tantals, only that they are not all bad. I see it like this, they have sold thousands of them, and had bad barrels in %10, that that's not great, it's not that they're all bad, just some. Folks seem to only focus on the bad ones, and I have read almost as many good reviews on CAI tantals as I have bad ones. Yes I think it was lame that they blamed the problem on ammo when it was the barrel and twist. I have the right barrel, as do all of the new ones, mine has a 1-9 twist and works great, some grains of bullet might not stabilize with certain barrel twist rates, so you just gotta do a little research. The barrels they are using now are the right ones for 5.45. I will proudly continue to stand up for CAI as they have given me no reason not to, I've tested my tantal as much as it can be and would bet my life on it's function, at almost 2 thousand rds through it, only 2 jams and not one keyhole, and the accuracy had been for the most part spot on, and now that I have optics on it, it has gotten even better. CAI has done some wacky and sometimes lame things, but the tantals they are not selling are GTG in my opinion.

I guess it's just to each his own.

Posted: 1/8/2010 2:15:41 PM EDT

[#8]

Nah Roadie, you need to buy a damn Lotto Ticket ASAP

hehe, i did find a dozen people that love their CAI tantals.

Btw, very nice addition w/ the side rail

Posted: 1/8/2010 4:02:34 PM EDT

[#9]

I bought mine last year...before hearing about the problem, but I am happy to report that it has been 100% reliable with no 'holes. I have shot Silver Bear and Surplus and it has been wonderful...musta been built on Wednesday.

Posted: 1/10/2010 6:25:53 PM EDT

[#10]

Went through 3 Tantals and all would keyhole.So I gave up and J@G sales hates me..

Posted: 1/10/2010 6:34:09 PM EDT

[#11]

no problems with mine.

Posted: 1/11/2010 9:34:17 AM EDT

[#12]

I posted a positive report about the Century Tantal that I bought. Took it out again just a couple days ago and the thing shoots awesome. One of my favorite rifles.

Posted: 1/11/2010 11:28:26 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
I posted a positive report about the Century Tantal that I bought. Took it out again just a couple days ago and the thing shoots awesome. One of my favorite rifles.

Did you use Surplus ammunition and did you post that in your review? Most are having issues w/ surplus, though some w/ everything and a few w/ everything but surplus.

Posted: 1/11/2010 12:13:25 PM EDT

[#14]

what's the process for sending it back to them - I submitted an e-mail and never heard back.....

Posted: 1/11/2010 10:28:58 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Roadie, congrats on being lucky and having a working CAI Tantal. Other CAI builds did not have the inherent issue of incorrect barrels quite like their Tantals did, so of course there are satisfied customers out there. "A few dozen unhappy folks" is a pretty big understatement, I've seen a couple keyhole firsthand, and none that didn't because those people never touched another CAI product again. You build a gun that sends bullets downrange sideways and you have the gall to say that it's the way the bullet is designed (look around for their statement on the issue- they quote wikipedia). The choice to use incorrect barrels is the sign of a company that cares more about a quick buck than the product that they don't stand behind. So once again, congrats on having a non-keyholing CAI Tantal, you should buy a lottery ticket.

+1

We are talking about the same company that gave us the "Wikipedia press release"

Yeah, lets tell people that CAI Tantals are GTG

But hey, this is a small list of members that reported keyholing CAI Tantals

1. Scotter260

2. GHPorter

3. Horis_mg34

4. 1moreAR

5. Kncook

6. Finslayer83 (2 keyholing Tantals)

7. terdferguson

8. 2000Z3M

9. cast1903

10. 1158

11. Kurt_D

12. MACD

13. nightrain5

14. madmerc

15. Silkyjla30

16. sherrick13

17. dgvastag

18. wedgehead (3 Keyholing Tantals)

19. 04ZREX

20. Obey

21. IANALY

22. BrokenMosin

Thats 25 keyholing Tantals from members here

Keyhole...whaat's the big deal...really?

23. Lion_of_Lincoln

Posted: 1/15/2010 9:07:08 AM EDT

[#16]

2010 and they are still showing up. Clearly, there is still a lot of bad ones out there.

Posted: 1/16/2010 6:06:35 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Roadie, congrats on being lucky and having a working CAI Tantal. Other CAI builds did not have the inherent issue of incorrect barrels quite like their Tantals did, so of course there are satisfied customers out there. "A few dozen unhappy folks" is a pretty big understatement, I've seen a couple keyhole firsthand, and none that didn't because those people never touched another CAI product again. You build a gun that sends bullets downrange sideways and you have the gall to say that it's the way the bullet is designed (look around for their statement on the issue- they quote wikipedia). The choice to use incorrect barrels is the sign of a company that cares more about a quick buck than the product that they don't stand behind. So once again, congrats on having a non-keyholing CAI Tantal, you should buy a lottery ticket.

Good post. And, not to change the subject, but don't forget all the people who got burned buying the CAI Golani (Galil clone) rifles. That was/is a giant fiasco also. The receivers built by Ohio Rapid Fire were (apparently) defective and the left locking lug does/did not lock up correctly. I hear they now are getting cast receivers from Caspian or somebody, so that problem may possibly be fixed.

Bottom line seems to be "if the price sounds too good to be true, then it probably is too good to be true." Folks expected to get a Galil clone for $599 or a Polish Ak-74 clone for $449 and get a reliable, well built rifle. Good luck with that. I admit that I am just as guilty as anybody else in wanting something for nothing. I was damn lucky with their SAR-1 and SAR-3 rifles and I have bought a CAI Tantal and a Golani as well that I have not shot. If the Tantal keyholes and the Golani bolt lugs don't lock up and the carrier dints the receiver in front, then I have nobody to blame but myself. If they shoot and function the way they are SUPPOSED to, then I will count myself damn lucky. Good luck to all of you also gambling in the CAI casino.

Posted: 1/16/2010 7:05:53 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I posted a positive report about the Century Tantal that I bought. Took it out again just a couple days ago and the thing shoots awesome. One of my favorite rifles.

Did you use Surplus ammunition and did you post that in your review? Most are having issues w/ surplus, though some w/ everything and a few w/ everything but surplus.

I have not and do not plan on shooting surplus through this rifle. 60 and 70 gr. Wolf shoots just fine, with nice round little holes.

Posted: 8/9/2010 6:14:29 PM EDT

[#19]

so after going back and forth with the dealer and CIA, I keep getting the run around. I'm just going to replace the barrel, now where to buy one?

Posted: 8/10/2010 2:41:13 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
no problems with mine.

+1

Posted: 8/11/2010 6:30:10 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
so after going back and forth with the dealer and CIA, I keep getting the run around. I'm just going to replace the barrel, now where to buy one?

Honestly, no one has them in stock.... Sometimes your able to find them on the EE. I would sell the rifle as a CAI Tantal that keyholes. You would possibly come out better than trying to replace the barrel.

More about the barrels that CAI used and USES keeps coming out. For the guys that have functioning rifles, enjoy them while you can. The soft steel barrels wont last for long

Posted: 8/11/2010 9:46:51 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
For the guys that have functioning rifles, enjoy them while you can. The soft steel barrels wont last for long

Any actual info to back that up? Or Is this another my brothers, uncles, mothers, best friends father said moment? Just like Chinese AKs have soft steel right?

Posted: 8/11/2010 11:04:17 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For the guys that have functioning rifles, enjoy them while you can. The soft steel barrels wont last for long

Any actual info to back that up? Or Is this another my brothers, uncles, mothers, best friends father said moment? Just like Chinese AKs have soft steel right?

I have the information to back it up, but will it matter? How about this, you do a simple test for your own experience. Use a small hammer or a pick for a quick damage test. Tap a "real" AK barrel, then your CAI tantal's barrel. Take notice that one of the two has a lot less of a dent on it.

Here is a nice picture of someone's CAI tantal barrel... BTW, he just bought the rifle..

Discussing this topic is much like talking to a Liberal..... I will never get thru to ya.

Posted: 8/11/2010 11:18:51 AM EDT

[#24]

24. xmikex

Posted: 8/11/2010 11:34:05 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

24. xmikex

Sorry to hear Sir

Posted: 8/11/2010 12:27:57 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Discussing this topic is much like talking to a Liberal..... I will never get thru to ya.

I agree they often make claims and back it up with "someone's" else's supposed proof? The only answer you have is for me to take a hammer and chisel to my barrel?

Not too scientific?

That there is key holing problems with some seems to be evident. But as to your claim of "soft steel barrels" which I'm assuming is your reasoning for why they keyhole rather than the more common understanding of improper diameters is in question. What you have presented here from "someone's" and a challenge to take a hammer and chisel to my barrel does not constitute proof to sufficiently back your claim. Sorry. Perhaps if I was dumb enough to take a hammer and chisel to my guns because somone on the internet said so I would accept such reasoning.

Perhaps we should start a list of those who have not had problems with their Tantals? What would that prove(apparently nothing to you since you have off hand discounted thier expereince in the 3rd post of this topic)? Would it prove those who did wrong? Or would it simply show that there are apparently problems with some and not with others which seems to be the common understanding anyway. I think I have seen many, many folks provide data for the wrong diameter theory. I don't see that in your accusation or in what you have presented.

Posted: 8/11/2010 1:15:44 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Discussing this topic is much like talking to a Liberal..... I will never get thru to ya.

I agree they often make claims and back it up with "someone's" else's supposed proof? The only answer you have is for me to take a hammer and chisel to my barrel?

Not too scientific?

That there is key holing problems with some seems to be evident. But as to your claim of "soft steel barrels" which I'm assuming is your reasoning for why they keyhole rather than the more common understanding of improper diameters is in question. What you have presented here from "someone's" and a challenge to take a hammer and chisel to my barrel does not constitute proof to sufficiently back your claim. Sorry. Perhaps if I was dumb enough to take a hammer and chisel to my guns because somone on the internet said so I would accept such reasoning.

Perhaps we should start a list of those who have not had problems with their Tantals? Would that prove those who did wrong? Or would it simply show that there are apparently problems with some and not with others which seems to be the common understanding anyway. I think I have seem many, many folks provide data for the wrong diameter theory. I don't see that in your accusation or in what you have presented.

Exactly, the response i expected from you. You even changed my wording into something totally different and irrelevent. Did i hurt your feelings, because you bought a low round plinker.

I dumbed it down for you.... Just a quick test to determine which of the barrels is made w/ a softer steel. Nothing more than that, just use a little common sense. If the barrel is soft on the outside, its just as soft internally.

CAI has used the 556 barrels in the past... The chambers were not up to spec for many others......... The twist rates have gone from one extreme to the next........ They use soft steel barrels on their builds.... What can i say.......... Its all out there for YOU, just open your eyes.
These may turn out to be great plinkers, nothing more. After a few thousand rounds get another barrel installed or buy another rifle, simple. Good luck with yours..... Btw, i probably have another 10 people i can add to that list.

Posted: 8/21/2010 9:17:19 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
no problems with mine.

Me too and I bought one used from a member here just recently. It had the evil prefix and everything. Works like it should. The only fault is the two rivets on the right side, rear of the receiver were not squished down properly. Doesn't affect the functioning of the gun.

Posted: 9/15/2010 10:56:19 AM EDT

[#29]

25 powerpimp

In my defense I bought it quite awhile ago. Just wanted another 74 type rifle.
Ok century offered to buy back-credit whatever. Not happening bought it at gunshow and not
going to go through that crap. I am not complaining but I would like to have a good shooting
Tantal. Now if I buy a barreled parts kit who can fix this turkey.

Posted: 9/15/2010 11:09:25 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Roadie, congrats on being lucky and having a working CAI Tantal. Other CAI builds did not have the inherent issue of incorrect barrels quite like their Tantals did, so of course there are satisfied customers out there. "A few dozen unhappy folks" is a pretty big understatement, I've seen a couple keyhole firsthand, and none that didn't because those people never touched another CAI product again. You build a gun that sends bullets downrange sideways and you have the gall to say that it's the way the bullet is designed (look around for their statement on the issue- they quote wikipedia). The choice to use incorrect barrels is the sign of a company that cares more about a quick buck than the product that they don't stand behind. So once again, congrats on having a non-keyholing CAI Tantal, you should buy a lottery ticket.

+1

We are talking about the same company that gave us the "Wikipedia press release"

Yeah, lets tell people that CAI Tantals are GTG

But hey, this is a small list of members that reported keyholing CAI Tantals

1. Scotter260
2. GHPorter
3. Horis_mg34
4. 1moreAR
5. Kncook
6. Finslayer83 (2 keyholing Tantals)
7. terdferguson
8. 2000Z3M
9. cast1903
10. 1158
11. Kurt_D
12. MACD
13. nightrain5
14. madmerc
15. Silkyjla30
16. sherrick13
17. dgvastag
18. wedgehead (3 Keyholing Tantals)
19. 04ZREX
20. Obey
21. IANALY
22. BrokenMosin

Thats 25 keyholing Tantals from members here

Keyhole...whaat's the big deal...really?

23. Lion_of_Lincoln

Oh wow, a few dozen reports from thousands of firearms sold on a site w/ hundreds of thousands of members, yeah sure sign its a bad company

Posted: 9/15/2010 4:01:31 PM EDT

[#31]

That 1 person has taken the time to remember and write down... There are countless people that don't post on internet gun forums. Once again, why trust a company that has put out several various caliber make and model guns with shoddy workmanship. Do some research before you come to their defense.

Posted: 9/15/2010 6:46:06 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
That 1 person has taken the time to remember and write down... There are countless people that don't post on internet gun forums. Once again, why trust a company that has put out several various caliber make and model guns with shoddy workmanship. Do some research before you come to their defense.

Your a better man than i. I'm pretty much done w/ trying to convience people. The FACTS are out there on the subject. I honestly want more of these Dumbasses to buy these rifles. I'll enjoy reading the posts about how bad CAI sux and NO ONE warned them.

Posted: 9/15/2010 6:57:31 PM EDT

[#33]

I love my Chinese Norinco.

Posted: 9/15/2010 8:12:34 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Roadie, congrats on being lucky and having a working CAI Tantal. Other CAI builds did not have the inherent issue of incorrect barrels quite like their Tantals did, so of course there are satisfied customers out there. "A few dozen unhappy folks" is a pretty big understatement, I've seen a couple keyhole firsthand, and none that didn't because those people never touched another CAI product again. You build a gun that sends bullets downrange sideways and you have the gall to say that it's the way the bullet is designed (look around for their statement on the issue- they quote wikipedia). The choice to use incorrect barrels is the sign of a company that cares more about a quick buck than the product that they don't stand behind. So once again, congrats on having a non-keyholing CAI Tantal, you should buy a lottery ticket.

+1

We are talking about the same company that gave us the "Wikipedia press release"

Yeah, lets tell people that CAI Tantals are GTG

But hey, this is a small list of members that reported keyholing CAI Tantals

1. Scotter260

2. GHPorter

3. Horis_mg34

4. 1moreAR

5. Kncook

6. Finslayer83 (2 keyholing Tantals)

7. terdferguson

8. 2000Z3M

9. cast1903

10. 1158

11. Kurt_D

12. MACD

13. nightrain5

14. madmerc

15. Silkyjla30

16. sherrick13

17. dgvastag

18. wedgehead (3 Keyholing Tantals)

19. 04ZREX

20. Obey

21. IANALY

22. BrokenMosin

Thats 25 keyholing Tantals from members here

Keyhole...whaat's the big deal...really?

23. Lion_of_Lincoln

Oh wow, a few dozen reports from thousands of firearms sold on a site w/ hundreds of thousands of members, yeah sure sign its a bad company

Sure. That's all it is. Just a few dozen members here who have purchased a keyholing rifle. How many of the "hundreds of thousands of members" here at AR15.com have purchased a CAI Tantal to begin with? Furthermore, this is primarily and AR-15 forum. Here on the dark side, the Polish forum isn't even all that active.

The keyhole problem is really only being seen in Century-assembled Polish Tantals. My Interarms Tantal is perfect. I have many thousands of surplus ammo through it without a hiccup and, more importantly, without a keyhole. Feel free to peruse the rest of the internet and find how common the complaints of keyholing Tantals from Century are.

When Century had to go so far as to lie in their catalog and claim that 5.45 bullets are supposed hit paper targets sideways, they gave themselves away.

Posted: 9/16/2010 2:35:43 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
That 1 person has taken the time to remember and write down... There are countless people that don't post on internet gun forums. Once again, why trust a company that has put out several various caliber make and model guns with shoddy workmanship. Do some research before you come to their defense.

Your a better man than i. I'm pretty much done w/ trying to convience people. The FACTS are out there on the subject. I honestly want more of these Dumbasses to buy these rifles. I'll enjoy reading the posts about how bad CAI sux and NO ONE warned them.

Are you calling me a dumbass.

sorry I didn't ask you what rifle to get, or log on at the gunshow to clear my next purchace with you.
I didn't try to buy a century. The price, fit or finish didn't sell me. There was a drought of 5.45 rifles around here for a time so I bought it.
That was like 3 years ago, maybe longer. Well lately I have been going through the safe, and would like to have a polish barrel and correct
finish applied to this firearm. I though this was a technical forum

Posted: 9/16/2010 3:26:59 AM EDT

[#36]

The barrels aren't made from soft steel. They are made from standard 4140 chrome moly with a Rockwell hardness of Rc 26-32. The original barrels may well have been treated to a higher hardness, never put one on my Rockwell tester. The company that made some of the barrels for Century also made them for High Standard.

Posted: 9/16/2010 7:05:59 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
The barrels aren't made from soft steel. They are made from standard 4140 chrome moly with a Rockwell hardness of Rc 26-32. The original barrels may well have been treated to a higher hardness, never put one on my Rockwell tester. The company that made some of the barrels for Century also made them for High Standard.

4140 chrome moly does not mean it has a Rockwell hardness of RC 26-32.... This is misinformation, FACT 4140 AN has a RC 22+. Oil Quenched & Tempered 4140 PH has a standard, industry recognized Rockwell C Hardness rating of 28 - 32.

Where is it stated that Green Mountain used Standard 4140?

GM claims to use 4140 Steel and this is their claim to quality

Drawing from an extensive inventory of two million pounds of bar stock, we select the right steel for the job and cut it to length. It's the first step of a manufacturing evolution that is rigorously monitored by our "shop floor control system." This system allows us to track an individual barrel every step of the way- even when there are as many as 90,000 barrels in process.

AISI 4140 in bulk is usually always 4140 AN for machining purposes.
They used the cheap steel because it machines well, thus easy to work with and cheaper bits. No need for PH (pre-Hardened) 4140, because the other barrels are either for .22 or low rd count rifles.

We all know that once a barrel has been made that it can not be heat treated (stress and warping).

I have seen these barrels under the mill and in action, this is mild steel basically.

Friend used a hand saw that cut thru it like butter.

Btw, i do apoligize to PowerPimp. Sir, your not a dumbass in my book. Just someone that was taken advantage of by a shady company. My wording could have been better, of course. It was not my intention to provoke you.

Posted: 9/16/2010 7:35:59 AM EDT

[#38]

Thank you for the apology. No hard feelings here

Posted: 9/17/2010 3:50:59 AM EDT

[#39]

Rube79,

You sound very knowledgeable about barrel steel and its usage. I appreciate your detailed responses. Mainly because of this, I decided it was time to respond further.

I can assure you, via material certification, that the 4140 Green Mountain uses for many types of barrels is Rc 26-32 from the mill. If you would like, send me an email and I can send you a copy of the material certification for your records. While GM is one supplier to Century there are others and I can't tell you what they use because I don't know. The whole 5.45 issue was a debacle to be sure, Green Mountain, as any vendor, makes items based on customer drawings and specifications.

A side note, as an enthusiast on this site, I've seen many of these threads and have been reluctant to chime in until now. While I won't answer questions that are related to any customer engineering prints or specs I will gladly answer any general questions about these or other barrels.

Rick Sanborn
General Manager
Green Mountain Rifle Barrels
[email protected]

Posted: 9/17/2010 6:00:11 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Rube79,

You sound very knowledgeable about barrel steel and its usage. I appreciate your detailed responses. Mainly because of this, I decided it was time to respond further.

I can assure you, via material certification, that the 4140 Green Mountain uses for many types of barrels is Rc 26-32 from the mill. If you would like, send me an email and I can send you a copy of the material certification for your records. While GM is one supplier to Century there are others and I can't tell you what they use because I don't know. The whole 5.45 issue was a debacle to be sure, Green Mountain, as any vendor, makes items based on customer drawings and specifications.

A side note, as an enthusiast on this site, I've seen many of these threads and have been reluctant to chime in until now. While I won't answer questions that are related to any customer engineering prints or specs I will gladly answer any general questions about these or other barrels.

Rick Sanborn
General Manager
Green Mountain Rifle Barrels
[email protected]

Now I honestly do not doubt the quality of 4140.

Glad that you clarified this for myself and others. I'm VERY happy that you posted this. I now know that i can buy one of ya'lls new Chromelined barrels w/ confidence.

With those regards, the Rc sounds really nice for a SS barrel. Thats a mean range as well, knowing that a bore would have that same range. This explains why some of these barrels shoot out so quickly and others have not. Everyone should know that the chromelining in a bore on the low end of Rc has over double the high end of that Rc. Heat effects these barrels much more than they were designed for as well. Combloc barrels are a bit harder, but that is honestly irrelevant now. Everything is science past this point.

How shitty is this and i can be quoted for saying this in other posts. GM has been given the WRONG SPECs since day one.

My theory is that hey copied the specs from Onyks. GM was givin multiple twist rates, bore diameters, chamber specs, hell basically all wrong. GM obviously had good prices for their barrels and sold them according to spec. If someone wanted to buy my product, im going to sell it. CAI did not care about the barrel life, nor did they do the proper research for the specs.

Again, the 5.45 issue was NOT the fault of Green Mountain. I'm glad that Mr. Sanborn has clarified and would actually post concerning his company.

Thank you again
Rube

edit: i wanted to add that i was wrong to assume that GM used 4140 AN.

Posted: 9/17/2010 5:50:19 PM EDT

[#41]

Rick, will Green Mountain be offering a barrel for Tantal's?

Posted: 9/20/2010 2:18:09 AM EDT

[#42]

power,

I've been thinking about adding a chromed version using the latest 4 groove 1:8 twist set up.

Rick

Posted: 9/20/2010 6:01:31 AM EDT

[#43]

out of thousands sold we have reports of 25.

mine has been fine as has every one our local shop has sold. Sure CAI turns out some junk occasionally, thats the chance you take for the lower cost. they also generally fix them when they do.

as for a softer BBL, it's not really an issue to me. I don't plan to burn 10k through this gun over the next year. in fact i may not do it over the next 10 years with this rifle.

Posted: 9/20/2010 7:04:08 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
out of thousands sold we have reports of 25.

mine has been fine as has every one our local shop has sold. Sure CAI turns out some junk occasionally, thats the chance you take for the lower cost. they also generally fix them when they do.

as for a softer BBL, it's not really an issue to me. I don't plan to burn 10k through this gun over the next year. in fact i may not do it over the next 10 years with this rifle.

That list in now in the 40's, but it doesn't matter now.

Your obviously not a kid and dont abuse your rifles. Your post is right on the money!!!!

Now hint hint, what if GM started making these barrels CHROMELINED

There is another US company that tried the 74 barrels and failed. hint hint

Posted: 9/20/2010 12:39:32 PM EDT

[#45]

I think the "softer BBL" accusations have now been laid to rest by more substancial facts. What is left as I stated before is the dimensions difference.

Posted: 9/23/2010 4:15:24 PM EDT

[#46]

I would just be thankful for the correct barrel for this rifle. Not a credit to somebody I have to chase down.

Posted: 9/23/2010 4:26:25 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
power,

I've been thinking about adding a chromed version using the latest 4 groove 1:8 twist set up.

Rick

You would be doing the community a great service if you do.

Posted: 9/23/2010 7:32:32 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
power,

I've been thinking about adding a chromed version using the latest 4 groove 1:8 twist set up.

Rick

You would be doing the community a great service if you do.

+1

Posted: 9/24/2010 5:25:49 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
power,

I've been thinking about adding a chromed version using the latest 4 groove 1:8 twist set up.

Rick

You would be doing the community a great service if you do.

I'd buy one.

Posted: 9/27/2010 5:56:03 AM EDT

[#50]

We're doing some more experimenting right now trying to get the groove deeper still. The CIP (euro version of our SAAMI ) spec shows a .213" bore and a .221" groove. We're at .215 and .221 now and seems to work well with 4 groove rifling and a 1:8 twist. I'd like to get down to .214 bore, keeping the groove at .221. The problen is that with button rifling, essentially cold forming steel, getting a groove depth of more than .003" in .22 caliber is difficult. Our Com Bloc friends cut broach the barrel so a deep grrove is easier to achieve. Anyway, I've got tooling on order and we'll experiment a bit but I would be happy at the target .214/.221". The bullets in the 5.45 tend to vary widlely in diameter and construction, the tighter the bore the better to overcome these ammo issues.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - I bought a CIA tantal before I read here (Page 1 of 3)

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