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Posted: 2/28/2005 8:37:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Think I screwed up, How the hell do I post a pic ? Help please.
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Posted: 2/28/2005 8:38:33 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 2/28/2005 8:40:56 PM EDT
[#3]
Holy shit.
That does not look good at all. 
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Posted: 2/28/2005 8:42:32 PM EDT
[#4]
Looks like sloppy machining.
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Posted: 2/28/2005 9:21:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Thanks Lumpy. How did you do that ?
 Do you think it's some kind of flaw. Is it ok to continue building I wonder ? |
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Posted: 2/28/2005 9:28:52 PM EDT
[#6]
It's a little better in the pic than when I first received it. Felt the ridge with my index finger and ripped it open. It's a rough world I guess.
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Posted: 3/1/2005 3:51:20 AM EDT
[#7]
Does your bolt carrier fit? It looks like the key cutter burned up when it cut under the top rail. If it is tight I would send it back. This is a lack of quality control.hinist
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Posted: 3/1/2005 4:56:26 AM EDT
[#8]
Contact ORF and let them know about the problem.
They stand behind everything they manufacture, and I'm sure they will make it right. KF |
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Posted: 3/1/2005 4:57:17 AM EDT
[#9]
unfortunately, your picture is not the first time I've seen this on an ORF receiver.
I have taken a number of pictures of the first (and last) ORF receiver I accepted for a build, as well as received many others photos from other builders. This kind of thing is all too common. While I like Todd, I am very dissapointed with "his" receivers. Considering his association with Robert Hesse, I wonder what the history of these receivers is. |
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Posted: 3/1/2005 6:31:10 AM EDT
[#10]
Trouble is ,even if it was not fixable and they exchanged it , another set of forms, another background check . I returned a complete "Galil " late last year because of quality/parts/finish issues. Thought I build my own. All this hassle to obtain a quality, workable Galil, just has not been worth the effort. T he excitement and anticipation of using a Galil again has long diminished and even if I finish the build, I would not be comfortable selling it to anyone . It'll just gather dust.
Did someone mention Hesse ?? with what I've heard and read on Hesse , please don't tell me these could be Hesse receivers. That'll be the last straw. |
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Posted: 3/1/2005 7:06:41 AM EDT
[#11]
well, Todd does buy parts from Robert. I don't have one of the "HEGAL" Hesse galils to compare. But it is not unusual for one manufacturer to make receivers and parts for multiple companies - just look at AR 15 parts.
I am really backlogged with work right now, but I'll see if I have time to edit and post these photos on my website to assist others in building off these receivers. |
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Posted: 3/1/2005 12:53:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Wow, I WAS under the impression these were CNC machined from a solid lump of steel by ORF.
Now there's even more doubt in my head. What about it Mr Grove.-- Do you manufacture these receivers, or are they "private label" Hesse ? |
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Posted: 3/1/2005 2:01:05 PM EDT
[#13]
I can personally vouch for these receivers being manufactured solely by Ohio Rapid Fire.
I was there when Mad Machinist was programming the CNC with dimensions taken right off the IMI Cad Drawing. I was there when blank steel stock was delivered. I was there when the first prototype Galil receivers were turned out. I was there when the final design Galil receivers were turned out. I was there when the receivers were parkerized. I was there when they were sent out for heat treating. I gave weekly updates and posted actual photos for all to see. Robert Hesse has nothing to do with any Ohio Rapid Fire manufacturing processes. If there is a problem with any Ohio Rapid Fire manufactured product, call Todd on the phone and give him a chance to address the issue, and if required, make it right. KF |
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Posted: 3/1/2005 2:48:23 PM EDT
[#14]
Were you there when they machined my receiver. ? How did they manage that one ??
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Posted: 3/1/2005 5:10:02 PM EDT
[#15]
I handled quite a few of the receivers. Was I there during the time when yours was manufactured? I have no idea.
The purpose of my response above was to let all of you know that these receivers were not manufactured by Robert Hesse. Have you contacted Todd concerning your receiver? |
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Posted: 3/1/2005 5:33:01 PM EDT
[#16]
YES
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Posted: 3/1/2005 5:38:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Please keep us updated. |
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Posted: 3/1/2005 6:45:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Absolutely
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Posted: 3/1/2005 8:52:08 PM EDT
[#19]
Guys,
The rec in the pic just did not get deburred. All that is is from the key cutter cutting the rails (uptop) to the one cutting the inside pocket, it leaves "hairs/splinters" sometimes if they are not dialed in together. A file takes quick care of that. Just a note for MM, no Galil recs have been made in 2005, MM was let go in 2005, he was our CNC parts guy. Nuff said on that. There are slight and small issues with some of the first recs we did, nothing that cannot be corrected easily. We have produced approx 115 rifles on our mfg recs. GP, not sure where you get your info or if your trying to start shit, but Robert Hesse has nothing to do with the receivers we produce. Maybe if you saw his you could tell its a cast and then machined piece. Mine are billet. You can tell the difference right? I can repost pics of the store, shop, the micro recs being cut now etc if we really need to go that far. I am not knocking you GP but a statement in a open forum like this can really start getting the shit to fly around. Get the info right, don't post "I think so's". Lastly, I have never received any emails from you about this nor recs you might have in your shop working on. Why not ask the source for info/help if you need it? We exchange emails pretty often with each other. Yes I will confirm the fact that I buy lots of parts from Robert Hesse, nothing that he manufacters though. If you guys don't know he is a very large importer of various parts. ORF is not a importer, we work with Hesse and several others on our parts purchases. Todd@ORF |
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Posted: 3/2/2005 4:29:41 AM EDT
[#20]
Thanks Todd,
Thats exactly what I thought when I saw the pic, a burr that would clean up with a needle file in a minute or two. Sheesh. agt123, if you are have difficulty cleaning up burrs, you might want to re-evaluate your ability to complete a Galil build.  |
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Posted: 3/2/2005 4:58:31 AM EDT
[#21]
I don't have a dog in this fight but I've been reading with interest.
agt123; How deep is that "burr"? From the posted photo that's not what I'd call a "burr" by any stretch of the imagination. BTW, Is this receiver a low serial number? How deep is your "burr" ? --- sounds like a song title from the 70's |
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Posted: 3/2/2005 7:21:43 AM EDT
[#22]
Sure Todd, I have nothing better to do than "start shit" especially with someone that I'd like to consider a friend and a long time mutual customer.
What I do deal with is people who send me their receivers for builds, and I have to return them because the receivers are not of a quality where I can guarantee results? Or do I just charge them my labor fees even if the gun doesn't work properly because of incorrect dimensions? Or when people who know my extensive background in galils and years of successful builds with IMI and Lyttleton parts want an "honest evaluation". What am I supposed to tell them? The emperor is wearing fine clothes? Or when a customer shows me an ORF galil and asks me to inspect it, and what I see do not match what was advertised when he purchased it (AK parts, spray painted surplus parts that were supposed to be new, mistimed barrels, etc) what am I supposed to tell them? I am in a difficult position of trying to be fair and equitable to someone making a much-desired product that I certaintly don't have the resources to make, someone that I've had a positive relationship with for years, and at the same time deliver an evaluation that is not as favorable as we both might desire. I'm sorry Todd, but the receivers I have seen are not of a quality I would expect from you. I don't have a nicer or gentler way of putting it. mislocated feed ramp barrel ties 180 degrees short ak parts substituted for advertised galil parts surplus parts sold as new spraypainted parts locking area wrong shape/dimensions rails machined out of parallel receiver walls machined out of flat stock holes mislocated selector holes mislocated recoil spring groove undersize ejector soft and mismachined shall I go on? The original purpose of my post was to show "challenges" and ways to overcome them. It is not cost effective for me to do any more builds unless there is dramatic improvement in the product. I can do three IMI builds in the time it takes to screw with one of yours. I'm sorry, but thats the truth |
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Posted: 3/2/2005 7:45:01 AM EDT
[#23]
Yes, It kinda sounds like it could be a tune, Climb every mountain was a tune, the Hills are alive with the sound of music, was a tune and what some people call hills others call mountains.
To ramble a little further , I guess a blacksmith might call it a burr, A precision machinist ( all the ones I know ) would call it an unacceptable surface . It all depends on your definition of a burr. Could we possibly, at least , call it a very big burr ? .018" is the depth. Everyone has a point. My point here is that same old question, where is quality control and why wasn't it taken care of prior to shipping. That's all. My ability to build a Galil is not in question here. I have the appropriate skill and resources and like a lot of guys, Iam a legend in my own mind. 
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Posted: 3/2/2005 8:31:46 AM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 3/2/2005 8:37:26 PM EDT
[#25]
GP,
My saying starting shit was toward the Hesse remarks you made. Now as far as the rec goes (not sure how to do the quote thing so I just copied it). mislocated feed ramp we use a modified Ak47 bullet guide, its alittle different but not that it would matter that greatly barrel ties 180 degrees short when we timed these recs first 175 or so, were all for 100% new brls, and they worked just fine, there not that great and do require assistance for a used brl, we try and explain that to the customers when they order them. I do infact have a IMI SAR rec and ARM rec that both time just about as short, can post pics if needed ak parts substituted for advertised galil parts You talking the mag catch, look at my add on my online store, says right there in it, Ak mag catch may be used, if your talking FACs add, well thats not me thats FAC and they were told what was on there surplus parts sold as new Ok lost here, what parts? Our kits we sold? 100% new guns demilled? Yeah they were. spraypainted parts Lost again here locking area wrong shape/dimensions You sure? I have the 1986 print 7 degree helix, can post pics if needed rails machined out of parallel If any its thousandths receiver walls machined out of flat Interior or exterior? Interior having the little bumps is from the cutter, ever see the tool needed to get in there and make that cut? 1" dia 1" tall 1/2" shank, sticking out of the holder a good 2", it flexs, can't do a hole lot better, look at the IMI damn near the same. Can post pics if needed. stock holes mislocated You mean hole? selector holes mislocated The selector comes to rest in safe where it should and no gaps, theres no stop on the mag catch so we run the indents deep so it catches there recoil spring groove undersize 3/32? ejector soft and mismachined 40-45rc per print, we check 1 from 15, generally 50 rec in a batch, its fatter to the rear, does not bother anything. shall I go on? If you like. I have no beef with you as I said before. I just think you should have checked with me on your Hesse comments before you made them. I am not saying that our Galil rec is the BEST product on the market. Its a product that we manufacture that fills a demand in the firearms industry. If other mfgs that think they can do it, do it better, than I say go for it, I would like to see another US made one and compare. AZEX preached his for a few years (not raggin on you D, just sayin', BTW folks me and D talked it out at SS and are on speaking terms again) and there is still no piece. There are minimal IMI recs left avail for sale, thats why we started this project. GP you wanna make some, do it. I don't mind you raggin on my product if you must, but consider the fact that we did make the piece avail when others did not step up to the plate and get er' done. Agt, I have not seen a email from you on your piece, if you email me on here I do not get them. You gotta email me direct [email protected]. As far as the 18thou, its not that deep. I found one at the shop and at best the hairs/burrs are about 5thou and there lap burs. Todd@ORF |
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Posted: 3/2/2005 8:44:36 PM EDT
[#26]
...and you cannot use the Galil M16 mag adapter. I also just found out that my bolt binds and will not close on the receiver. 
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Posted: 3/2/2005 10:12:51 PM EDT
[#27]
So Todd, since you didn't deny any of the errors found in ORF Galil receivers that are pointed out by Gunplumber, is there any plans to correct/solve these issues? |
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Posted: 3/3/2005 4:15:08 AM EDT
[#29]
Todd;
I've run into several of the same problems in the ORF Galil receiver as mentioned above. I've talked with you on several of them in the past - e.g. Buttstock retaining pin hole in the receiver too low, approx. .040 gap between selector and receiver top cover, etc.) I have not run into any show stoppers and they all have been overcome with workarounds and tweeks. I don't believe anyone is trying to railroad you and your Galil receivers. I believe you should be commended for your efforts to supply the community with a much needed commodity. But, what I would like to see is something on how you plan to address the problems that should be fixed. You have taken a very good cut at producing a Galil receiver but it does need some improvements to make it a great product. I believe under all this talk is everyone's desire to see ORF produce the highest possible quality IMI clone Galil receiver that is economically viable. Criticism, especially in a public forum, is difficult at best. Please try to take the input for what it was intended to be. I know we all want the best Galil receiver possible and I believe you are on the right path. I would just like to see this product at the same outstanding quality level that ORF has be known to produce. It's up to you to make this into a great receiver. |
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Posted: 3/3/2005 5:09:41 AM EDT
[#30]
I am sorry with this wek being so hectic, that I have not yet been able to edit the photos I have accumulated.
You have the only US made Galil receiver available and that is to be commended. I am in the fortunate quandry of having a six month waiting list now for my work. Therefore, in choosing which jobs I will accept, I have to do a form of monetary triage. Basically, I no longer accept pain in the ass jobs. But since I still receive numerous informational and assistance requests, I am putting together a page that covers the problems I have had. Is it because of some personal vendettaa against Todd? Or is it so other people who buy his receivers can bennefit from the informationa nd experience I have accumulated on working around the problems with the receiver. Todd acknowledges most of the errors I have identified. Whether they are significant as I believe or unimportant and easy to work around as Todd claims is up for the individual builder to decide. As to Robert Hesse? He has built galils. His products are known for defects. There are problems with your galils, you do admit to buying parts from him. I don't think my query as to the relationship is out of place. I understand from your post that Hesse has nothing to do with the construction of your receiver. I still don't understand what parts he supplies to you and where they are used, but I suppose it is immaterial to the receiver review. |
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Posted: 3/3/2005 8:42:55 PM EDT
[#31]
Guys,
Yes there are some issues with our recs as I have stated in GPs comments. Correct them, yeap thats what I am working on and why MM is jobless. Since Jan 3 I have been in charge of the CNCs, I have been working at correcting all the minor things that could have been done first time around. Nother reason why I am behind in what work I am suppose to do here, but all is still trickling out. Micro recs are coming done this month, they are "tits". Still have to address the AR mag adapter thing, but I have not had time to get one to get dimensions or what we need to change from. GP your comment and what pissed me off was you implied they were Hesse receivers. Do you wanna know what parts I buy from him? I can tell you if you like, email me. Todd@ORF |
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Posted: 3/5/2005 1:43:25 AM EDT
[#32]
KrinkFreak,
Have you ever tried emailing the Toad jr? I have and only if you email him directly will you get a reply! (Not a very nice one either if you ask about the RF5 project) I've known many to wait months (myself) but I now understand why because I went over to his "other" project sites and seen for myself where his effort has been applied over the past several months. Just do a search on "TGrove" and "all boards" You'll be reading for awhile! Now search on "RF5" and "TGrove", there's four maybe five at the most. Normally, I wouldn't say shit about any of this but this ASSHOLE has gone out of his way to really put everything BEFORE a project that he should have never commited to and refuse's to admit he can't handle! |
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Posted: 3/5/2005 2:34:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Let's try to keep this on track, and work towards a resolution. Name calling doesn't get anyone anywhere. |
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Posted: 3/5/2005 4:14:56 AM EDT
[#34]
I've emailed Todd on numerous occasions. Sometimes it's a day or two before he answers, and I've never gotten anything short of a nice reply. I suspect if anyone sends an "angry" email then an "angry" response might be the case. If the RF5 project is taking too long and you're uncomfortable waiting then pull out and invest your funds in another HK94 or SW5 or Bobcat weapon. I agree. Calling someone an asshole or referring them to Toad Bailey is really not helping the situation at all. KF |
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Posted: 3/5/2005 5:38:31 AM EDT
[#35]
Todd;
I know we'd talked this before to some extent but never addressed if this was going to be changed. I was wondering if your improved Galil reciever will have the reinforced receiver wall (thicker wall) characterisitic around the hammer and trigger axis pin holes on the right hand receiver wall. As I remember, you said you had an IMI SAR that was smooth and had an IMI ARM that had the reinforced areas. Additionally, the current ORF Galil receivers are smooth and flat on the right hand receiver wall. Does the IMI receiver print you have indicate reinforced wall areas and will this be added to ORF Galil recievers of the future? (Thanks TapperMan, hope you don't mind I took liberties with your photo to help illustrate this point) http://199.197.64.17/pics/galil/rec-inside.jpeg |
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Posted: 3/6/2005 3:57:46 PM EDT
[#36]
Guys, gunplumber is a fucking hack whom is rather upset that a small company in Ohio is taking away his once lucrative FAL business.
No longer can he sell his $1200-1300 FALs, when ORF has the same class of weapons if not nicer for half the price. His "metacol" finsh that flakes off after firing a weapon once, is really laughable. His only good employee left and started a heck of a business called AZEX arms, who does outstanding work BTW, and also realized that parkerizing beneath the gunkote/parkote what-have-you is a better method for finish adherence. His parkote beats metacol hand down. ORF parks under gunkote as well, and their finish is far superior than anything your shop is putting out. So go ahead and whine about the ORF Galil reciever. I do not see you building: a Galil reciever 1919 recievers M76 Zastava reciever HK belt feds belt fed AR uppers.....the list goes on. Oh, I forgot, you would have no clue where to begin  |
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Posted: 3/6/2005 7:50:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Guys;
Let's try to stay focused on the issue at hand - the ORF Galil receiver. I've seen many of the same receiver problems/quirks as noted by GP and responded to by Todd. I don't know GP and have never dealt with him - GP is not the issue here. I don't care about any side issues. It can only pollute the subject at hand and impede any logical discussion. The ORF Galil receiver is a good receiver and is buildable. It can also be improved upon as we all have already agreed. |
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Posted: 3/6/2005 8:54:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Well, constructive criticism taken often leads to a better product. I bought an ORF Galil receiver expecting it to be identical to the actual IMI receiver they used to program the CNC mill. Being short on money, I expected this receiver to be dimensionally correct so that I could do this build myself but I am not going to grind up a hardened receiver to make it work. I do appreciate all that ORF has done. They have done work for me in the past and it was excellent. Just my .02. Now, back on topic. |
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Posted: 3/7/2005 8:05:14 AM EDT
[#39]
Thank you J-L for your well written, educated critique. Your subject knowledge and prose leaves me overwhelmed. I will be sure to meditate deeply on your intuitive brilliance. I will ponder especially the dichotmy of 1.) my being a hack and 2.) my being the teacher of a smith you admire.. Be assured your turbid diatribe will garner the consideration it deserves.
Now back to the problems with the ORF Galil receiver and what can be done to either fix or work around them. I have put someof the photos on my website. www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/notes/pagenotes.htm If you have other photographs, pictures, or comments that may assist other builders using this receiver, please send them to me and I'll add them to the webpage. |
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Posted: 3/7/2005 8:23:57 AM EDT
[#40]
I don't see any ORF Galil receiver photos. |
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Posted: 3/7/2005 8:32:34 AM EDT
[#41]
it was still uploading. should be done now.
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Posted: 3/7/2005 8:59:14 AM EDT
[#42]
I see it now, I really appreciate the great pics and detailed description. if ORF decides to improve their Galil receiver make sure you do another review on those too.
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