A jump off thread to prevent further hijack of a cool AK-54 thread.

People in the weapons community believe these rifles need higher cap mags.

I don't see it. The Ak-54 / PSL is  a hard hitting, light weight, supporting role rifle. Mindset being to engage targets of opportunity at 200-400 yards. These are not battle rifles, or med MGs. You have to go to small unit tactics and then think implementation. Think RPG gunner tactic- not machinegunner.

Made with stamped receivers, with a narrow magazine feed face, and slim bolt profile.

The AK-54 is 8 lbs unloaded
The PSL is 9.3 lbs UL
- Both are rated at 30 rounds of sustained fire per minute-
-designed as a single operator, aimed fire, support, small arm. -


Comrade....

Compared to the medium MG examples of rimed rifle case, 20+ capacity magazine fed weapons.

A crew served, milled receiver, fortified bolt- having generous feed faces and heavy barrels.

The Bren - a three man served gun- at 22.83 lbs. A sustained rate of fire at 120 rpm.

The MG/30- again 3 man served- 27 lbs. Sustained rate at 160

The m/26 lahti- now only two man gun- at 16.8 lbs unloaded. Sustained rate of 160/200



It is my informed assertion that the AK-54 & PSL would in no way be improved with a severely curved over sprung 20 round aftermarket magazine. The heat build up from dumping 20 rounds would be so severe that the weapon would be near useless at the next reload. The barrels, action, and furniture would fold in the role of a battle rifle. (I have moded a PSL to the same dimensions)



However, Hi Cap mags for the PSL MAY open the 922r can of worms.

Discuss here:

Well, my PSL is probably good to 400 yards or so.  I have never stretched it out past 200 yards so I am not sure of that statement.  Shooting volumes of ammo quickly is pretty worthless with these.  Groups spread as you warm it up.  If I want to hit you at 800 yards or so I would use my Mosin Nagant 91/30 original sniper rifle.  That beast is sub MOA and in the right hands can be deadly to 800 yards or even more.

If you it what you shoot at you don't need high capacity mags.  If you want to lay down suppressing fire go AK or M4.  They are meant to be bullet hoses.  The PSL is not.

I would rather have one 20 rounder than 2 10 rounders. Less to reload. And I wouldnt "dump" the ammo

I have zero interest in hi-caps for my PSL.  Perfectly content with the 10 rounders.  Besides, my SVD chest rig is designed for 10 round mags.

I have two mags...one 18 and one 19 rounder, as that's how they worked out when I made them.  It shoots fine, doesn't overheat (though it does get warm) and I have them because I can.

The magazine was intentionally limited to 10 rounds in recognition of the limited rate of accurate fire that is possible with the lightweight barrel, and in recognition of the issues with mag length that begin to make shooting from a low prone position difficult as you vo beyond 10 rounds with the 7.62x54R round.

I am sure some folks would love to have higher cap mags but the reality is that larger/longer mags would be a very poor match for the PSL when you consider how it is employed tactically.

There is a "WANT" for higher cap mags.

"Need" has got nothing to do with it.

My wants automatically go into my needs file and I get them.

If someone else doesn't want them and/or fails to see a need for them, I shouldn't be penalized due to their misgivings.  That happened in '34, '68, '81, '86, '89 and '94.  Fudz didn't care as they had no need for any of these as long as their a-huntin' bullshit wasn't touched.  I'm a fukn American and I demand to have whatever I want, regardless!

While I would love to have some higher Capacity mags for my rifle, at this point, I'd settle for being able to find some standard capacity mags.  everyone seems to be soldout.

I agree, we don't need hicap mags for the PSL.... someone just needs to figure out how to convert them to belt fed

So... outside of the technical argument against sustained ROF capabilities of the PSL, of which I have never seen magazine capacity encourage a greater or lesser volume, the author makes the real purpose of the arguement... Uncle Sam might come down and regulate us!

Well, I say grow some nuts and start contacting your congressmen and women and start calling on them to investigate the ATF for all their screw ups and tell your congresscritter they better start putting a leash on the agency before the election cycle ends or they may find themselves out of a job. Add to it that fact you think regulations have gone far enough. Then bug the hell out of your state legislators to pass home-rule laws regarding firearms manufacture and interfere with the overstretch of the commerce clause...

Then you can tell me all about my "needs" and "wants". But sitting there and telling me a line of BS about ROF for the PSL as if I can't change mags fast enough to not matter whether they are 10 or 20rd capacity as a way of concealing your real reasoning is the sort of deception that makes me want to find 8 bren mags and covert them because I can. And then I'm going to start machining and stamping PSLs to be chambered in .308 and use 20rd M14 mags...

Just come out and say you're scared of the ATF making some new arbitrary rulling and you'd rather we all just be content to hide under our rocks and be thankful the ATF doesn't snatch away our shade. Come right out and say you want us all to grovel and submit and appease the ATF with placations of gradititude for their mercy and not step out of some imaginary line so as not to arouse their wrath.

But, by God, don't piss on my intelligence and call it benevolent rain.

Wow.

So much for reasoned discussion.


Guess I hit a nerve.


So the big deal is " I want."   Ok.

Noted.   Now can we see a range report?

I'll post mine if you'll post yours.

The topic is implementation is a firefight situation?

Then my personal belief is this: if you have a 20rd magazine that works well and you can carry it fully loaded... why not?

As stated earlier, a M-14 carries 20rd magazines, and so does a FN FAL, why not make a 20rd using the harder hitting x54r cartridge?

If you have the capacity for superior firepower, then you can gain the advantage in a firefight, so why not 20rd magazines?  I would much rather have my support guys focusing on suppressing rather than reloading.  Small unit wise suppressing with 20rds sustained vs. 10rds sustained it will allow you to gain a fire superiority early and hold it since you will have to reload less, hell if your actions are quick enough maybe you don't even need to reload!  It all depends on the individual using the rifle.  If they lay a well aimed accurate rate of fire down your small unit will be in good shape, if they just dump magazines like Middle Eastern Jihadists... well they shouldn't be on that rifle.  It all comes back down to training.

And it really depends on the situation. Is there a certain type of scenario are we talking about with a small unit?

I think we are definitely seeing responses from those who own a PSL and those who don't:

Those Who have one know they heat up fast.  I watch my shots spread way out after only a few (ie less than 10) shots.

Those who don't have one/don't care about accuracy want high cap mags for them.

'Suppression' fire with a PSL is going to be about as effective as long range suppression with a 12 gauge.  Are you going to tell your DM to restrict their shots to 1 every two seconds in a firefight situation?  of course not.

Let's face it, guys. Loading a PSL with hi-cap mags is a bad idea for the same reason that loading it with 200gr ammo is a bad idea- it's flimsy.

From the top.



And what does one prove? That I can shoot just as slow with a 10rd as a 20rd magazine? You seem to be missing the point. A 20rd magazine simply holds more ammo... It doesn't make me shoot faster. You may not be able to resist the temptation but I can. I do so everytime I sit behind a M1A with its 20rd mag. I you would like, come back in 20 years and I will show you a 20rd group from one mag shot over the last, you guessed it, 20 years... one round a year... are you disciplined enough? Cause it won't bother me.. I got three PSLs; one sitting there loaded to fire the longest string in history won't deny me any fun.



No, you're seeing a response from someone with trigger discipline. Again, I fail to see your connection between ROF and magazine size... why haven't you cut all your mags down to 5rds if you're so concerned about the size of the mag ruining your groups? Maybe you're shooting too fast... need to insert more mag changes in there to slow you down...

I'm just not understanding some of you... when I hit the range, I'm there about 10am and I leave about 3 or 4pm... No rushing on my end. What's the point?



Yep.. a loaded 20rd mag is such a strain on the receiver... oh wait, you are another one of those "bigger mag=higher ROF" fools... And btw, while I am not personally inclined to it, a properly loaded 200gr is no more harsh on the system than some of the hot surplus you shoot now... in fact, I'm beginning to wonder if the east block understood that primer cratering is a sign of "back off on the powder"... so to see you repeating the same old "internet facts" and still be ignorant of the truth slamming your BCG back every shot makes me wonder just how much shooting you do. Not that I care or need any of your justifications.

Now, for those reading along and not spaming the reply button now with their rage face on, let me be clear. The PSL barrel does not appear, on any of the three I own, to like a bullet much heavier than 168gr. And by the time I stretch it up that far, I'm downloading the speed so far it ain't really worth pulling the trigger. Hopefully, an adjustable gas block will allow alittle tuning in this respect but for those who can't abide by the DEZ's appearance, 155gr is about as high as I recommend with straight cookbook powder loads... These thin barrels are not in favor of heavy rounds...

note there is a guy who mod'd a PSL to take a heavy barrel in free float... search for PSL heavy barrel to find it...

And some of us don't understand you.  I was hoping to use my PSL in Heavy Metal in 3-Gun competitions.  A place where Hi-Cap mags, fast shooting and accuracy are needed.  My PSL won't hold a tight group after 5 or 6 quick rounds, it definitely is not going to double tap a row of 4 8" plates at 200 yards in 30 seconds.

I find sitting on the range all day, taking one shot every five minutes to be nearly as boring as watching paint dry.  What's the point?

Some people shoot slow, some fast.  

But, as wiser men than us say: To each their own.  

Forgive my naivete.

Isn't the point of a DMR to have a stretched range, but also be capable of some kind of rapid fire in an emergency? Did the Romanians just favor mobility over capability? In that case wouldn't a bolt-action have been cheaper and easier to develop if repeat shots would skew accuracy so much?

That aside, what about shortening the barrel? Like Rifle Dynamics' GSR? Shouldn't that at least mitigate some of the barrel behavior?

And a 20-round mag wouldn't necessarily violate .922(r). There's the AK-54R and all other PSL sub-variants that have PGs.

No.. you seem to fail to catch the bigger picture. The holier-than-thou declaration of "you don't need a 20rd mag" just belies either a need to tell others your way is the better way or encourage everyone to cower before the ATF.... either end point pretty much tells me you can't simply live and let live...

So go peddle your opinions amongst your range buddies and leave the rest of humanity to choose its own path... Otherwise, you are no better than any of the gun confiscators...

And despite your accusations, I have never, once, said the 20rd made sense or was practical. I don't really care if it is or not. I'm not converting any of my 13 mags anytime soon. But the choice is mine and I shall do as I please. Siding with those who say "x-fill-in-the-blank-here" because they don't believe there is any purpose otherwise is basically saying we should all be shooting revolvers and lever-actions... because why would you need anything else...

I don't care if you understand. I care if you want to understand. But siding with those who tell people something is "not needed" when there is little need for the device the topic fits is, for lack of better description, BULLSHIT.

Ban be damned... I've been here long enough to read the crap that flows from some... just because they think they know better... yet many of their self-righteous declarations, had the internet been present a generation or two ago, would have been on the same side of the fence as me...

Stuff it.

I think people just want SOMETHING in 7.62x54r with high cap mags, that doesn't cost as much as a DP-28.


PSL/AK-54 are just the only available choices.



Somebody make an AR that uses the 47rd pancake mags.

Yeah, I down own a PSL that I made into a carbine and I don't own a PSL pistol I built from a scratch receiver.  The higher capacity mags I made and use are vaporware and it all resides in an imaginary safe when I'm not out in an imaginary place shooting the shit.  I like getting on here and lying about shit to make myself feel better and important like a fukn liberal.

Sounds like you have tried it and came to this conclusion from firsthand experience.

so...do either of your PSLs not heat up when shooting at a faster than benchrest pace?  If they don't, patent what you did, and start selling it!  I'll be first in line for your heat reducing, accuracy enhancing upgrade, along with 10 of your hi-cap mags.  As I mentioned, i bought my PSL with full intention of it being used in 3-gun matches.  How wanting to use the gun in a scary fast paced high round count competition, yet can't cause the weapon sucks in that role, makes me a Brady Bunch shill, only Arfcom knows....

A twenty round mag in a PSL would make about as much sense as putting a wire folder on a PSL.

A PSL for three gun?  That's an odd choice.

2 reasons: 1) yeah, it's odd. 2) it was cheap, ammo is cheap.

Too bad it's accuracy is not up to par, the whole 'heating up making accuracy even worse' (which is apparently purely my fault for wanting to be a libtard and shoot fast), and for a while, mine had all kinds of feeding and ejecting problems that I had to work out.

Is your PSL a US kit gun?  It seems like most Romanian PSLs run fine, mechanically speaking.

While they are not a sniper rifle, they are reasonably accurate for the intended mission.  I don't buy the "less accurate when hot" theory, however, there is a POI shift between a hot PSL and a cold PSL.  If anything, mine shoots a little tighter when its hot.  

A PSL won't shoot MOA, but properly zeroed and properly operated (most are neither), paired with its original optic, its a good rifle to consistently hit a man-sized target out to 600 meters or somewhat farther, very easily.  Its not a sniper rifle, but it is comparable to something like the M14 EBR.

I have a bolt action .22 that heats up when I shoot it.  Benches are for those other guys that don't want to go home to a nagging bitch wife or whatever.  I have a few SMG's...maybe I should refrain from shooting bursts from them as to not heat them up too.

OF COURSE they heat up...WTF kind of question is that supposed to be?  Physics in SD are the same as they are in MO last time I checked.  Even when they're hot, I can kill a critter, rock or whatever the hell I'm shooting at.  I never shoot paper because it's non-reactive and would bore the shit out of me.

I've never tried hi-cap mags.



200gr ammo? In the words of Dave Chappelle, "Fif!"