LEGAL STUFF

Saigas can be converted ONLY if enough US parts are installed so as to make it a "domestic" rifle rather than an import. Domestic rifles cannot have more than 10 imported parts, so you have to replace enough imported parts with US ones to get down to imported 10 parts. On pistol gripped Saigas, you need 5 US parts.
Non pistol gripped Saigas only need 4.

Here's what US parts I have on mine
buttstock
pistolgrip (new part, not on original)
trigger
hammer
disconnector



Under current law, semi-auto SHOTGUNS manufactured after Sept '94 can ONLY have ONE of the following features:
*pistol grip
*detachable mag (any capacity)
*fixed mag in excess of five rounds
*folding or telescoping stock

Since the Saiga shotguns are semi-auto and have have a detachable mag, you're done. No pistol grips allowed. Somewere someone once said that since the .410 is measured in caliber, not gague, it falls under the rifle category, but I've yet to have that verified.

Post ban semi-auto RIFLES with detachable mags fall under these guidelines.

Rifle can only have ONE of the following features.

*pistol grip
*flash hider or threaded barrel
*bayonet mount
*folding or telescoping stock
*grenade launcher (ha!)

So a Saiga RIFLE can be converted to pistol grip since the detachable mag is not the list, provided that the pistol grip is the only "evil" feature.

If you have a SHOTGUN, you cannot convert it to a pistol grip configuration (unless you want to be the guinea pig for the .410 version)

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Okay, I got started on my 7.62 Saiga conversion to hicap mags and pistol grip.

Parts ordered:
From KVAR: US buttstock $39, US pistolgrip $10
From TAPCO: Gordon US fire control group $40, grip nut and screw $5

The first thing I did after ordering parts was to file the mag catch lever to lock high cap mags. I used a 20 round Hungarian mag for a model. I field stripped the rifle and filed down the latch with a small hand file until it fit. I filed for a minute or until my hand got tired and then checked the mag to see if it would lock, being careful to file the latch evenly to keep the face square. I was real careful because I didn't want to file too much, 'cause you can't put metal back on once it's gone. When the 20 round mag locked, I then tested all of my mags in it and did a little tweaking so they all fit.

Last night I took out the stock fire control group by putting pressure on the shepherd’s hook and removing the regular FCG pins and their related parts. I was stumped for a while on how to remove the two rear pins that hold the actual trigger and the yoke transfer bar. I was planning on taking a Dremel to the pins and simply cutting them in half, but I couldn't get in there with a cutting wheel. I tried to grind off the heads of the pins to punch them through and wound up putting two little gouges in the receiver- no more of that! I bent a steel punch trying to get them to come out- no luck. I finally took a bare hacksaw blade in through the back end of the receiver after the stock was removed and cut the pins in half. That took a while!

I then dremeled off the head of the rear-most rivet holding the triggerguard to the plate on the bottom of the receiver. I took a hammer and a screwdriver and banged down on the tab of the triggerguard that sticks out from the back of the gun and holds the lower stock screw until the triggerguard popped out from the rivet, leaving a nice little hole- more about that later. The front attachment of the triggerguard looks kind of like a weld. I wiggled it to try and work it loose to no avail. I finally bent the triggerguard down away from the rifle and took a hacksaw to the crevice between the triggerguard and the receiver to cut it loose. It came off with no problem.

Next I dremeled off the heads of the remaining rivets holding on the bottom plate and hammered it off with a screwdriver, leaving three rivet posts sticking up out of the bottom. On contemplating how to reattach the triggerguard, I noticed that the rivet hole between the original stock attachment hole and the triggerguard loop (remember I mentioned it above?) lines up with the rivet just behind the regular trigger opening in the bottom of the receiver. The front of the triggerguard has a little tab where it was welded to the plate, and this tab will go into the gap between the receiver and the top of the mag catch housing! Nice fit! If I punch out the middle rivet behind the trigger hole, I can use a small screw and nut to attach the triggerguard to the receiver and shove the front of the triggerguard under the mag catch housing!

I found out this morning that the Gordon G2 FCG would not drop into the Saiga. The G2 I bought is a double hook trigger and the Saiga uses a single hook. I seem to have bought the wrong one.  Gordon apparently makes both.  I'll either have to cut a hook off the G2, cut a relief in the receiver for the other hook, or get a single hook trigger system. Any ideas from those of you who have done this?

left to do:
cut hole for pistol grip nut
refinish bottom of receiver (engine paint)
attach triggerguard
install feed ramp (3/4 inch pipe)
fit FCG

I'll post again as I have more news. For a first gunsmithing project, I'm having fun!

BTW- I was able to pop out the rivet right behind the trigger inlet leaving a nice round hole. It looks like a small screw and nut will hold the triggerguard in place! I'll get one tomorrow since all the hardware stores are closed. Sometimes it sucks working on my guns at night. I hate to wait.
________________________________________

I'm keeping the original handguard. The black polymer Kvar stock is a perfect match.
I had to bend the triggerguard just a bit to fit right but I think that was only necessary because I bent it up a bit trying to remove it from the rifle. Basically I just squared up the corners. I'm probably going to have to cut off the extension containing the buttstock screw, but we'll see once I measure for the grip hole.

I got some 8-32 black button head socket cap screws and 8-32 stainless steel hex nuts from the hardware store. The screws will fill the four holes in the back of the receiver where the goofy trigger pins were and another will bolt on the trigger guard through the above mentioned holes. It's a great setup for the triggerguard, a lot easier than I had anticipated. The only concern I have at this point is that the rear of the triggerguard sits a bit foreward compared to my SAR2. The triggerguard comes down right where the trigger hole opening is, but I think there is enough room for the trigger to clear.
__________________________________________

I ordered my FCG from Tapco and got the Gordon double hook one. I didn't see any US made single hook set. I'm debating wether to cut my reciever to fit the second hook or to get another FCG with a single hook.

_____________________________________

I think I'll cut the reciever. I bought a small chain saw sharpening bit for my dremel that appears to have the same width as the hole that needs to be cut.
_____________________________________

On the grip hole, I used my SAR-2 as a template and found the receiver dimensions the same on the Saiga. It is a square hole with side lengths of 1.2cm (0.5 inch) that is centered on the receiver and the opening is located 4.0 cm (1 and 9/16 inch) from the rear edge of the receiver. I marked off the perimeter of the hole with a sharpie and then used a big drill bit and drilled a hole in the center of the box. I then used the chainsaw-sharpening bit on my dremel to hog out the hole, and hand filed it square. I had to fit the grip nut several times and do some more minor filing work before it would drop in. The hole didn't come out perfect, but hey, nobody sees it anyway!

As it turned out, I was able to use the trigger guard off of the Saiga for the conversion. I cut off the extra length where the stock screw went and used a button head screw and a nut through the rivet hole to attach it to the gun (see my earlier posts for more details). The screw head went on the inside with the nut on the bottom. The pistol grip went over the nut and extra screw length quite easily and hid them, but I'll probably cut off the extra screw length anyway before I'm done.

I used the same chainsaw bit on my dremel to open up a channel in the receiver for the second trigger hook, and I opened it up a bit more than I needed too!  Oh well, it doesn’t really look like a hack job unless you know the slots are supposed to be symmetrical. I had to file away a bit of extra material on the trigger between the hook arms, and I had to relieve the pistol grip a bit on either side where it meets the receiver and wraps around the trigger guard because the trigger was binding on it. Using the modified Saiga trigger guard places the grip and rear of the trigger guard right up against the trigger hole in the receiver. On my other AKs, there's a gap of about a mm or two, but it doesn't bother function at all so it's no big deal to me. I actually kind of like it because the trigger pull length is shorter.

With the fitting mentioned above the G2 trigger works fine!

I drilled the two holes for the stock and installed it. I also dremeled out a relief slot on either side of the stock where it fits into the receiver so I could fill the two empty Saiga trigger holes on each side with a button head screw and a nut. I need room for the stock to fit between the nuts.

All that's left now is to drill and tap the trunion for the feed ramp and refinish the bottom of the receiver!

I installed all the action parts and played around with it before going to bed. It looks fantastic and balances real nice!

Hey man thanks for posting this over here, I had also read this over on the other sight as well. In regards to the triggerguard removal I read what people have posted and most seem to be trying to break weld like you have done, I have thought about using a spotweld drill bit to remove it . Do you think this might be a good or bad move? I dont have a AK handy to compare it with and Iam not sure if hole the drill will make in triggerguard would be seen. Great report on your project.

DamnYankee, I am not familiar with the tool you speak of, so I can offer no comment.

The way I attach the triggerguard to the rifle, the front tab that is originally welded (or whatever) to the rifle is not seen, so I guess a hole in it would not matter.  Just don't cut the tab off, as you need a bit to stick under the mag catch.

I may have an angle on a digital camera...

Thanks W and CAMPY.

edit- some pix are unavailable, sorry!


before


after


Here's a shot of the bottom with the plate removed.  From left to right, note the rivet between the mag catch and the trigger hole has been filed down flat, the other slot cut in the trigger hole for the double arm trigger, the rivet hole in the center punched out to screw on the triggerguard, the square hole cut for the pistol grip, and the slot for the goofy saiga trigger.


Fuzzy pic of trigger with the shiny part where I filed it between the hooks to fit


Here's a shot of the innards with no parts...


and with parts.


Shot of the feed ramp cut from pipe.  It's just laying in there right now as I have yet to permanently attach it. Drill and tap? (edit- I bought a feed ramp and used it instead of pipe- see separate post below)


Triggerguard bent to fit and the extra hole cut off of the right side.


Trigger installed notice how tight the fit is between the hooks.  I'll probably open it up a little more.


Trigerguard installed.  Just tuck the left side under the mag catch and use a button head screw to attach thru rivet hole. Trigger butts up right to the triggerguard, but functions fine.


rearward shot with pistol grip nut installed


Pistol grip on.  It covers the screw holding the triggerguard on and also covers the original dorky trigger slot.  Rear rivet filed down flat.


Inlets ground into eaither side of buttstock to allow room for nuts attached to button head screws. They will fill the two rear holes on each side of the reciever where the Saiga trigger pins were.


jealous?

Super SWeeeeeeeeeeT dude! nice job!!

You have reason to be proud.  That was well thought out, methodicly executed, and reported to us with clarity and style.  Good work!

How much different is the .308 Saiga?  I'm not familar with the inner working of the .308.  In other words, is it possible to convert it to a pistol grip?

Same as above I'd guess.  The problem would be finding hicap 308 mags.  I've seen a M14 mag conversion, but that appears to be a major undertaking.

go here:

www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77554

I decided to buy a $10 feed ramp from K-VAR (it's listed as a bullet guide on their website) and use it instead of a piece of pipe.  The pipe would work, but it looked too much like a Hesse job for my likes.

When I got it I discovered two things that prevented me easily installing it.  The first is a rivet post that extends into the receiver from the left side that seems to have no other purpose than to thwart the installation of a feed ramp.  All of my Saiga's have this post stubbing into the receiver right in front and to the left of the barrel, but none of my other AK's do.  I used my dremel with a cut off wheel to cut a notch into the feed ramp to fit around the post- no big deal.
The other one was that the bottom of the feed ramp has a square extension that I guess is supposed to fit into a flat recess in the trunion.  The Saiga does not have this recess, so I had to use a grind stone and dremel the bottom of the feed ramp to a round profile. This wasn't too hard either.

I just got back from the hardware store where I bought a 6-32 recessed head machine screw (black with a hex head), a 6-32 drill and tap set, and a center punch to start the hole.  The feed ramp already has a hole in it and came with a rivet (which I have no need for), so I simply laid it in the rifle in the right spot, traced the hole with a mechanical pencil, and punched the center.

My drill is at school right now otherwise I'd still be working!  It looks like it will work out fantastic!  Bullet feeding is extremely smooth, better than the pipe ramp, and it will look like a factory installed ramp once it's in.  I painted it black with the same engine paint I'm going to use on the bottom of the receiver.

My only concern is being able to get into the action with the drill because the drill bit is so short, but we'll see!

I'll keep you posted!  :D

Well, I got it in and it seems to work okay. I spent about an hour filing down the screw head because I was having trouble getting the bolt to close and thought the screw head was sticking up to high. The problem was actually on the left side of the ramp where the extra lug is machined. I guess my hole in the trunion wasn't quite on center so the ramp was off a hair clockwise. The ramp lug then caused the bolt to hang up. I solved that by simply using a cut off wheel to zip the lug off the ramp. Problem solved.

I test fired it today and it works fine. I just finished JB welding the screw and the ramp down.

Don't use the aerosol Gun Scrub or carburetor cleaner on your Saiga- it will take the finish off! I got a little bare spot where it says "read the fricking manual stoopid" on the right side of the receiver. I refinished the bottom with a high temp flat black engine paint that matches the finish perfectly, and I lightly sprayed down the sides of the receiver to cover the bare spot, but it seems to want to come off too easy. CLP takes it off, and I know Hoppe's will. I'm going to stick it in the oven and see if baking it on will help.

Anybody have other suggestions for a cheap refinish that will withstand gun solvents?

Other than the finish problem, I'm very pleased with this project!

Hmm...
I'm only seeing one of my pix now...

help anyone?

Quoted: Hmm... I'm only seeing one of my pix now... help anyone?

I don't see any......would be neat to see how she turned out!

okay I can see them now!  Yahoo error I guess

Try POR-15 [ http://www.por15.com/ ].  It is used heavily in the automotive industry and has the durability of Imron.  It requires surface prep (sandblasting is great) and a topcoat.

Quoted: Anybody have other suggestions for a cheap refinish that will withstand gun solvents?

I'm getting this message when I cut and paste the links to your pics:

"bcvrf.yahoo.com could not be found. Please check the name and try again."

Go over to http://www.hunting-pictures.com/ and sign up for a free account.  Post your pics over there and then edit your post to reflect the new location/URL.

Thanks for the details, too!

Quoted: Hmm... I'm only seeing one of my pix now... help anyone?

go here  

photos.yahoo.com/bc/onehalfmvsquared/lst?.dir=/public&.view=t

let me know if you can't see them

A BIG THANK YOU TO RED STAR ARMS FOR HOSTING MY PICS!!!!!!!

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAN! CHANGE THAT HANDGUARD! IT LOOKS LIKE A HESSE!!!!

J/K

themao

That's the handguard supplied by Izhmash for the original rifle.  I kinda like it.  It looks 21st century.  The lack of a brake identifies it as non-Hesse, as does the quality of work!!!  look at the final feed ramp- no pipe with bulgy welds there!

But it won't be a true AK-103 for prole pimpin unless you switch the gas block, the rear sight and the handguard!

Whatever works man. It's your rifle. The Saiga handguard is probably more comfortable than the AK-100 version.

You're a better gunsmith than me too.

themao

Here's some more instructions on the feed ramp.  I went with a regular ramp instead of pipe.

go to

www.k-varcorp.com/bulletguides.html

buy the 7.62 guide

toss the rivet.

dremel the bottom round (it will have a square bulge on it).

use a dremel cut off wheel to remove the raised lip on the left side of the ramp (click on the picture on kvar's site and you'll see it) and cut a notch inthe ramp to clear the rivet that stubs out into the reciever.

set ramp in gun where it will go and make sure the bolt will close.  hand cyle a mag of ammo through the gun to see if it will feed correctly- make sure the gun is pointed in a safe direction!

find a flat hex head machine screw that will fit in the hole in the ramp without sticking up and buy a drill bit and tap to match the threads.  I took my ramp to the hardware store and hand picked a screw to match.

carefully position the ramp in the gun, making sure the bolt has enough clearance on the right side to fully rotate into place.  Take a sharpie and mark the ramp hole on the trunion (metal base in front of the chamber)  remove ramp, drill vertical hole, tap hole for threads, and screw down ramp.

TEST FIRE GUN!  you don't want to permanently attach it without knowing if it will function.

If it works, coat the threads and the bottom of the ramp with high temp (600 degree) JB weld, and lock it down.

there you go!

Good info man. Thanks for posting all your work here it really helps us future modders.

I was lucky and the grip hole was already there for me. I did my conversion last Thursday after work. I still need to paint it, but I am waiting for the feedramp to get here. What was the part number on the grip that you got for $10. I do not recall seeing a $10 us grip at K-Var.

I would post pictures of my project, but they really do not show anything more then right here.

On the old trigger pins, I did what someone on the other board did. I took my dremel and thinned the heads down. I then hollowd the centers a little bit before I took a punch and hammered them out. I was then able to tap them back in and mushroom the heads out again. I then notched the butt stock a little to clear the end one.

I should add on what I did to seperate the trigger guard from the Saiga cover plate. It looked to me as if it was just a spot weld. I put a small grinding barrell in the dremel and started grinding in the area of the weld on the cover side. What I mean is if the cover were still attached to the rifle, the area I grinded on would be inside the receiver. I just kept grinding in that area untill the guard came off.

Now, I did not like the angle the guard sits in the photos everyone posted after they turned it around backwards. I mounted mine like MRW did. I squared mine up using a padded vise and a pair of plyers. I then cut off the tab that went over the butt stock, leaving just the portion with the hole in it for my screw. I was then able to hook the front under the mag catch and screwed the back down using a small screw and nut. It is very solid and looks really square. I do not think I will do anything more then that. I have a demilled trigger guard on the way, but may just save that for the next project. If you want, I can post a picture of my trigger guard.

I wanted to bump this up for some new members about to do a Saiga conversion.

I recommend that you bookmark this thread.

maybe a mod could tack it?

:)

Thanks for the tack!

And once again thanks to Red Star Arms for hosting my pictures!

This looks like a great project.My Saiga appears to have a cast receiver, does it use the milled or stamped stock set?

This looks like a great project.My Saiga appears to have a cast receiver, does it use the milled or stamped stock set?

All Saigas (and most AK's in general) have a stamped sheet metal receiver (as opposed to milled).  It will take a stamped stock set.  Good luck!

Thanks Mr W, Looking closer at the lower receiver that's obvious, it looks like they dip the whole receiver in black paint ( inside and outside). One more question, why is the Saiga missing the dimples on each side of the lower receiver right above the mag well ?

Hank

I guess because the Saigas were never intended to take high capacity mags.  They decided to skip that part of the manufacturing process to save cost and time.  But that's just a guess.

Thanks for the inpiration!! This morning I disassembled my Saiga shotgun to convert it. I did find some interesting tid-bits though. I was able to dril through the spot weld on the forward trigger guard. This way it came apart pristine and set me up for a forward mount. After I got it all apart, and temporarily put the guard on, I drilled through the receiver(top-bottom)under the mag catch. This way I can rivet the forward part of the trigger guard directly to the receiver. Rivet from the inside out and it will not catch the hammer of the mag release. Now I have to select what type of stock and pistol grip to use. If anyone wants pics let me know Thanks!!!

Unless your shotgun is a .410 model,

DO NOT CONVERT IT!  YOU ARE VIOLATING THE '94 ASSAULT WEAPON BAN AND COMMITTING A FELONY!

And the exemption on the .410 is questionable.

Under current law, semi-auto shotguns manufactured after Sept '94 can ONLY have ONE of the following features:
*pistol grip
*detachable mag (any capacity)
*fixed mag in excess of five rounds
*folding or telescoping stock

Since the Saiga shotguns are semi-auto and have have a detachable mag, you're done.  No pistol grips allowed.  Somewere someone once said that since the .410 is measured in caliber, not gague, it falls under the rifle category, but I've yet to have that verified.

Post ban semi-auto rifles with detachable mags fall under these guidelines.

Rifle can only have ONE of the following features.

*pistol grip
*flash hider or threaded barrel
*bayonet mount
*folding or telescoping stock
*grenade launcher (ha!)

So a Saiga RIFLE can be converted to pistol grip since the detachable mag is not the list, provided that the pistol grip is the only "evil" feature.

If you have a 12 or 20 gague shotgun, return your rifle to its original configuration pronto and edit your post!

Nope, 410. And after talking to the local ATF office it is a go. But thank you for the very concerned reply!! And if I used a thumbhole stock it's still good, no questions at all then...

Fantastic!  So you're saying that the BATF (at least the local office) has confirmed that the .410 falls under the rifle regulations and not shotguns, and can therefore be legally converted to a domestic pistol gripped rifle?

A lot of us have been dying to get an affirmative answer to this question.

Could you possibly provide paperwork documenting the BATFs answer to this question?  A letter from them stating what they told you perhaps?  I'm sure many people would love to convert their .410s and are only waiting for documentation to begin.

This could be the break many of us have been waiting for!

Much Thanks!

I sure can, As a matter of fact let me see what I can get in writing on letterhead and a point of contact.I will post it here as soon as possible.

Legal > Semiautomatic
SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS and LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICES under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322 The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994)


(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.


(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -


(D) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

This came from the ATF web site, your thoughts?

The list above describes an ILLEGAL shotgun.  If you have one of those features, you're okay.  The exclusion at the bottom is nice, but there are 8 and 10 round mags for the .410 out there.  EXTREMELY hard to get, but they exist.
There are 7 round mags for 12 gague in existance as well.
The issue seems to be mag capacity.
Any mags over 5 rounds for the 20 gauge?

So... The black and white of it are this: The ATF says any 2 of these are illegal, i.e. 2 or more create an illegal weapon. The detachable mag is Exempt if 5 rounds or under. I can install a pistol grip, but as soon as a mag over 5 rounds goes in, it is illegal.Now as I understand it, a thumbhole stock is not considered a pistol grip. I am planning on installing a dragunov stock. There should be no question about it then.

No, not exactly.  The rule states that the exemption is if it is not possible for the mag to hold more than 5 rounds.  That means it is exempt if there are no mags holding over 5 rounds in existance.  But there is.  So the 12 gauge is not exempt.
Also, the BATF decided several years ago the a thumbhole stock IS considered a pistol grip.

Sorry.  The 12 and the 20 gauge conversions are forbidden to the best of my knowledge.  Those that know more than I do have told me the same thing.  If I were you I would get the opinion of your local BATF office before doing anything.

BTT 'cause the tack has been removed.  (?)

Okay I see where it went.  It got stuck in a "folder" of links.

Bob assigned me a task of removing too many posted tacked threads. I thought it best to just link them. However, if you want to clean it up and post it again, I would be glad to tack it, or we can leave it be. Which would you prefer? Thoughts?

nah, I'm lazy.  leave it as is!
Thanks