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Posted: 1/10/2010 3:59:40 PM EDT
im new to the ar scene but not to firearms. i recently acquired an m4 rifle for Christmas and had quite a few issues. i have had to replace the gas rings after about 25 rounds, which was a learning experience. now, this morning i discovered while at the range that the forward assr pawl broke and jammed the bolt mechanism. my question is...a) is this typical wear on a rifle that is so new and b) what causes a forward asst malfunction like this?

here are the particulars:
blackthorne upper
essential arms lower
tufforce rail system
bushnell mp trophy red/green optic
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 4:31:53 PM EDT
[#1]
hmmm got pics... I ve never heard of a fa breaking... Id say this is definately not typical..
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 5:09:20 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 5:12:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
im new to the ar scene but not to firearms. i recently acquired an m4 rifle for Christmas and had quite a few issues. i have had to replace the gas rings after about 25 rounds, which was a learning experience. now, this morning i discovered while at the range that the forward assr pawl broke and jammed the bolt mechanism. my question is...a) is this typical wear on a rifle that is so new and b) what causes a forward asst malfunction like this?

here are the particulars:
blackthorne upper
essential arms lower
tufforce rail system
bushnell mp trophy red/green optic


Many will say that is the major issue!
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 5:24:02 PM EDT
[#4]
blackthorne upper

I would say this is the major issue!
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 6:04:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Santa, never liked you.
Never heard of this many problems so soon.  Even on a home build.  
Why did you go with ANY of your choices?
458
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 6:31:54 PM EDT
[#6]
i had a family member who is in LE to the build. i knew there would be a learning curve so i dont mind but i want it to work..here is a pic of the whole rig...

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/bdub712/ar%20parts/IMG_1975-1-1.jpg?t=1263180538
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 6:32:33 PM EDT
[#7]
huh, I never use the forward assist, so mine will never fail I guess
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 6:41:43 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
im new to the ar scene but not to firearms. i recently acquired an m4 rifle for Christmas and had quite a few issues. i have had to replace the gas rings after about 25 rounds, which was a learning experience. now, this morning i discovered while at the range that the forward assr pawl broke and jammed the bolt mechanism. my question is...a) is this typical wear on a rifle that is so new and b) what causes a forward asst malfunction like this?

here are the particulars:
blackthorne upper
essential arms lower
tufforce rail system
bushnell mp trophy red/green optic


blackthorne upper

Well hell, there's your problem.

That is not normal wear and tear. Spend the coin and get a good upper and be done with it.
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 7:15:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Even though there are few parts excluding the bcg in an upper, being a Blackthorne, you might want to change uppers before the ejection port cover breaks.




As a side note, I think you've established a new record for gas ring replacement, 25 rounds, that's the fewest I've ever heard.




Here's a link for a replacement FA.



http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-AR15-Forward-Assist-Assembly-p/bcm%20forward%20assist%20assembly.htm





eta



(JK) on the port door breaking
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 7:52:07 PM EDT
[#10]

    Did it quit functioning , was that the reason you had to replace the gas rings ?

    Why did you have to even use the FA ?

    What kind of ammo ?

    What kind of lube ?

    Listen guys , I know nothing about Blackthorne uppers , which you all are apparently criticizing ?  But I can not see how that relates to replacing the gas rings ?  So , that can not be the only factor ?

God bless
Wyr
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 7:58:20 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Even though there are few parts excluding the bcg in an upper, being a Blackthorne, you might want to change uppers before the ejection port cover breaks.

As a side note, I think you've established a new record for gas ring replacement, 25 rounds, that's the fewest I've ever heard.

Here's a link for a replacement FA.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-AR15-Forward-Assist-Assembly-p/bcm%20forward%20assist%20assembly.htm


    If he gets it working , I would say run it .

    I suppose the  ejection port cover comment was said in jest ?  But if he is a newbie , he may not realize that ?

    If not , I do not know if I would worry about it .

    I have an upper ( with a bull barrel ) that does not even have a  ejection port cover  or FA .  Of course , it is not intended to be a " mud hog " .

God bless
Wyr
Link Posted: 1/10/2010 10:51:53 PM EDT
[#12]
i'm also dying to know about the gas rings...25 rounds to replace?????
Link Posted: 1/11/2010 3:04:47 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:

    Listen guys , I know nothing about Blackthorne uppers , which you all are apparently criticizing ?  But I can not see how that relates to replacing the gas rings ?  So , that can not be the only factor ?

God bless
Wyr


I, for one, assume that since the OP didn't list the manufacturer of the barrel or bcg separately, he bought a complete Blackthorne upper including the Total Blackthorne Experience and the maximum opportunity to know first hand of their legendary lack of quality control. If it's all BT, the root problem may be rings, the bolt, the carrier or something else, but regardless, BT has had the chance to touch it, screw it up and ship it anyway.
Link Posted: 1/11/2010 5:47:04 AM EDT
[#14]
...the pics below show some of the damage...the third ring was bent completely back at both ends. the pic shows the second ring  and how it started to go...

Did it quit functioning , was that the reason you had to replace the gas rings ? the gas rings could not be explained as to why they failed. i talked with a LE armorer about it and he had no other conclusion then bad rings.

Why did you have to even use the FA ? i had a jam and the bolt was not seated all the forward. i hit the FA thinking that would help, but it didnt....

What kind of ammo ? I was shooting 55gr LE rounds from Federal out of the box

What kind of lube ? break free
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/bdub712/ar%20parts/IMG_1978.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/bdub712/ar%20parts/IMG_1980.jpg
Link Posted: 1/11/2010 6:19:42 AM EDT
[#15]
Link Posted: 1/11/2010 7:55:11 AM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 1/11/2010 8:34:16 AM EDT
[#17]
-Dano

No worries...I went into this venture knowing there would be a learning curve, didnt realize it would be to this extent. Any way, i'll learn what I need to on this one and be ready to invest something on the next one...you can never have to many...

thanks for being constructive....

bdub
Link Posted: 1/11/2010 10:17:02 AM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 1/11/2010 3:55:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Good advice 'bout the home front.
And be the last one to tell you how to do it but the upper receiver might be a candidate for a 22LR
458
Link Posted: 1/11/2010 3:59:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Good luck.  I think you can get it sorted out soon enough.

I got hosed once upon a time similar to you.  I ended up learning a lot in the fix it process
Link Posted: 1/11/2010 4:58:26 PM EDT
[#21]
well it's boxed up and going back...the whole upper that is...the builder is going to contact the manufacturer and lay the blame on them pretty hard...if anything i'm guaranteed a new upper...im hoping from a new vendor...

those that are interested i'll share what BT response is...

bdub
Link Posted: 1/11/2010 5:21:47 PM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 1/14/2010 7:41:43 AM EDT
[#23]
i have been doing some research on a replacement upper seeing the lack of confidence in blackthorn...i know the reputation of bushmaster, colt, RRA, and DPMS. I was curious as to what yall thought about Spikes, Wilson, and Stag...my goal is to acquire one the previous mentioned uppers but i dont want to totally break the bank...

thanks for advice...be back when i hear from the builder as to what blackthorn will or most likely will not do....
Link Posted: 1/14/2010 9:00:41 AM EDT
[#24]
any one of those will be fine, didn't know Wilson made uppers, im not a Colt koolaid drinker
 






I would also take the advice to find a new builder, one that wouldn't use blackthorne products

 
Link Posted: 1/14/2010 9:33:31 AM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 1/14/2010 3:18:32 PM EDT
[#26]
You can get a complete Stag upper at

ar15sales.com


for $505


It should be pretty good.  If you don't care about money then you have many other options.


adco.com   had some  RRA uppers for around 500 bucks last time I checked.
Link Posted: 1/14/2010 10:20:38 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
You can get a complete Stag upper at

ar15sales.com


for $505


It should be pretty good.  If you don't care about money then you have many other options.


adco.com   had some  RRA uppers for around 500 bucks last time I checked.


    Del-Tton had a few on sale ( do not know if they are still on sale ) for ~ $ 400.00  .

    If you decide to replace the upper , you can send the old one to me & I will give it some TLC .  

God bless
Wyr
Link Posted: 1/21/2010 6:06:51 AM EDT
[#28]
UPDATE, 1/21

Many of you were interested in the response from Blackthorn. Well surprisingly they have apologized and have agreed to replace the entire upper. It will be a few more days before I get it back but if all goes well then I'll be back in business.
Link Posted: 1/21/2010 6:11:09 AM EDT
[#29]
UPDATE, 1/21

Many of you were interested in the response from Blackthorn. Well surprisingly they have apologized and have agreed to replace the entire upper. It will be a few more days before I get it back but if all goes well then I'll be back in business.

Thanks for all the responses. This has been a learning experience.
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