After one of the Des Moines gun shows, the Iowa Arfcommers got together for a few drinks and some social time – a meet and greet if you will…  The good folks at RB Precision share a booth at the gun show with the crew from Superior Arms.  Superior and RBP were both able to attend the social gathering that night.  I had wanted to either buy an upper or build a 204 Ruger in the AR platform.  After reading an article in the October 2005 issue of Precision Shooting titled “The Best 500 Yard Varminter?” that compared the .223 Remington, .204 Ruger, and the .22-250 I was convinced.  I had doubted the .204 Ruger, suspecting it similar to the .17 Remington.  The .17 Rem was potentially great, but proved to be a real barrel burner with a tendency to copper foul a barrel in just a few shots…  I watched a friend fight his Rem 700 in .17 Remington with Sweets 7.62 copper remover one year on a pdog trip and decided, “nope, not me…”  With little wind drift, higher velocity, and great accuracy it made sense; why wouldn’t I give the .204 Ruger try it?  I asked the guys at Superior if they would consider building one, and they were already in the testing stages of a few as we spoke.  

I put in an order for the heaviest and longest barreled upper they could build.  Considering this was a prototype order in a new caliber for them, why not go with the prototype quad rail?  Many of you may be wondering where an ultra light weight quad rail fits on a heavy profile varmint gun.  Well, without giving away too many much information, suffice it to say the rails on each side will wear plenty of gear when I’m finished – I’ll post with my new apparatus for the rails when I’m finished.*

Superior shipped me the upper and I already had a Superior lower in had built a month or so earlier.  For testing purposes, I put the Superior lower with a hand polished trigger and sear, JP spring kit, Ace FX stock, and tactical grip on the shelf.  The Ace stock isn’t finished, as it will wear similar jewelry to the quad rail I mentioned earlier.  I had a Colt lower sporting a Chip McCormick two stage flat trigger and the A2 trap door packed full of lead, so I opted to push a couple pins and BANG!** I had a complete rifle.  I scrounged up some PRI super high 1” rings and mated them with a 6x18x40 Vari X II Leupold scope clad in Butler Creek caps. The Harris 9-13 bipod on a rail/bipod adapter from Brownells finished the package.

I built this up to be a varmint rifle and I intended to use it and test it the same way I use them when in the prairie dog fields out west.  All my shots were taken the bipod.  No bags.  Although I use bags often, I’ll go for a walk away from the group and set up shop on a ledge overlooking a field full of mounds.  For this, I’ll take a few hundred rounds and rely on the bipod, good firing and breathing technique and let the chips fall where they may.

Groups with all the ammo tested hovered around MOA at 100 yards – all rapid fire shooting mind you...  Some groups were 5 shot strings while others were 10 shot strings.  All groups were fired from a hot barrel, just like they would be out west.  The shooting was done lying prone on a concrete slab – plenty of “jump” with the bipod.  All in all, the ammo I picked up performed very well.  The Hornady 32gr and 40gr VMax units were advertised at much higher velocities than they achieved.  The Hornady 32 grainers were listed at 4225 FPS and the 40 grainers at 3900 FPS.  Both these showed relatively high standard deviation at 82 FPS.  The Winchester 34gr Jacketed Hollow Points look like they’d lay the hurts to a pdog and they flew well with a SD of 61 FPS.  The real winner surprised me.  Remington’s 32gr AccuTip-V was a real performer.  They flew the fastest, printed the smallest groups, and boasted the lowest SD of 32 FPS.  

The fit and finish on the Superior upper was great.  Their new quad rail is light in weight and heavy in features.  There must be two million holes in it – I assume that’s a good thing.  I pity the poor guy who taps and threads all of them.  The rails themselves aren’t actually mil-spec.  The crown of the rail itself is slightly lower than mil-spec.  This allows for quick and easy installation of anything you’d care to install.  I see one problem with it, however.  In cases where you have certain types of quick-detach accessories, there may be an issue with mounting.  Units with lever type throws will likely tighten up fine, as they bind against the rail.  Units that slide over the rail and lock fore and aft with a detent will undoubtedly not stay tight.  They won’t fall off, but they also won’t stay tight…  I also found that standard 20 and 30 round magazine from Brownells need a little feed lip adjustment.  Although I’d used these mags countless times with .223 and 5.56 ammo with no problems, they seemed to pop into the chamber at an odd angle causing them to bind and feed poorly.  They usually fed, but the case was dented and scarred from the binding while feeding.  I pulled a few out without firing to inspect the case denting – it was significant.  After fire forming to the chamber, they only showed a few scrapes along the case hull.  Feed lip adjustment made the problem go away.  Just for fun, I used the same modified mags in two different AR’s in standard .223 caliber.  They fed fine – so much for the “need” of M4 ramps…

I’ll post pics of groups with the rifle being shot off bags as well.  With low wind, bags and a rest, we’ll see the groups shrink significantly.  I’ve also toyed with the idea of doing a before and after with the rifle in terms of JB bore paste.  I’ll talk with Superior and see if they have a directive on this.

To sum things up, I’m very pleased.  The rifle looks good and shoots very well.  I was a little loose on my specifications to Superior and they have exceeded my expectations.  The real test will begin this spring and summer as I have three trips west to shoot prairie dogs on the calendar.  I currently have 22,000 rounds of Black Hills 40gr VMax in the shelf in .223.  I’ll add at least 5,000 rounds of .204, likely the Remington 32gr AccuTip-V, and see what intensive use brings.

Thanks again to the folks at Superior Arms for not only the product, but the eager willingness to work on this project!

Feel free to IM or Email me, with comments, questions, and concerns.  I hope I’ll be able to help.

-septic tank



*I found out a patent on in invention is very expensive.  My lawyer advised me to keep it under wraps until I either sold it, or opted otherwise
**No pun intended…

HOnking Big pics, Batman!   its ok, i just had to position the page across the screen to read the text without scrolling.

looks good- i take it you don't reload?    otherwise why not get a 20 tac?   what is the barrel profile?

i asked for the largest profile they had, but i didn't measure it.  i'll get out the calipers and check it out.  

yeah, i don't know why the 1st two pics are so large.  the photobucket thingy say anything over 512Kb will be resized so i'm assuming the first two didn't exceed the size, otherwise they'd be smaller...  sorry...  i'm handy with a rifle, but not much with a digital cam...

yeah, i reload.  i opted for the .204 Ruger, because i could easily get started with factory ammo, then ease into reloading for it later.  i've been buying winchester brass for it each time i go to the store.  isn't the 20 tac a .223 necked to 20 cal?

-septic tank

1.015" behind the gas block
.935" from the block forward

24" in length

i had a bunch of people ask me about the cost associated with this.  i had to go back through and add everything up.  i took the pics with a colt lower on it, but have the superior on it now and have reflected the cost accordingly (the colt and superior are both built the same less the CMC trigger).

$475 for the complete upper (sold with agreement i would fully test and evaluated the upper and report back periodically)
$85 for PRI rings
$150 for used Leupold scope 6x18x44 vari-x II with butler creek flip ups
$80 blem stripped lower from Superior bought through RB Precision
$65 for DPMS LPK
$10 for JP springs
$10 upcharge for tac grip from standard grip in LPK
$30 for 3 lb lead wedge in A2 stock
$65 for complete A2
$20 for bipod rail adapter
$60 for harris 6-9 bipod

$1050 total


i had it in my mind i could barely buy the bare rifle for that assuming in bought it outright.  to build the unit with scope and accessories for a little over $1k was very refreshing.  it was satisfying to my checkbook as well...

enjoy.

septic tank

Man I am jealous of that rig. You can do some damage and have some fun at the same time with that thing.

that was pretty much my goal.

thanks for the kudos!

-septic tank

septic, sorry i havent gotten here earlier.  



man that is a beauty.  i really liek the looks of it.  kinda has me thinking.............specaily after the conversation we had earlier tonight.  i have been thinking about another possible chambering, just not sure what yet.........time will tell.
i cannot wait to get some trigger time with you again......we will have to set it up again to get down to yale.  



Brett

i enjoyed our shoot that day too.  the four of us had some fun alright.  yeah, we'll schedule a time and do some damage.  

thanks for the thumbs up on my rig.  i'll bring it next time and you can give it a whirl - maybe it'll pass the bb test.

-septic tank

Looking good!

Now go and shoot it!

Quoted: i enjoyed our shoot that day too.  the four of us had some fun alright.  yeah, we'll schedule a time and do some damage.   thanks for the thumbs up on my rig.  i'll bring it next time and you can give it a whirl - maybe it'll pass the bb test. -septic tank

you know though, i am not sure that little .20 cal bullet will be enought for me to shoot wires with

Great looking rifle!

Feel free to use these pics. That way I won't have to scroll back and forth to read the post.

$475 for the complete upper (sold with agreement i would fully test and evaluated the upper and report back periodically)

Who has this upper available right now? I really need just a barrel I have the other parts.

Good looking gun!

That's a good looking rig you got there.  Thanks for posting.

bumblebee - thanks if your pics there i'll work with it.  i just deleted my link to the original two pics.  thanks!

Easu_E - contact superior arms - they can help.

jollyroger - thanks, i'm tickled with the outcome.  i was shooting it again this morning.  i changed a couple things - i added a badger tac latch so i the scope mount wasn't getting in the way.  i aslo shitcanned the DPMS safety selector and used a RRA star unit i had.  i like it a lot better, especially since i use the tac grip which places my hand farther aft for better "finger tip" contact on the trigger - i have big hands.

bb - now that i know how to beat you, let's give the "severing #9 wire with a bullet at 100 yards competition" another try.



thanks again fellas!

septic tank

I was thinking about building a .17 Rem. upper for my AR.  Does the company you got you barrel from offer it in a .17 Rem?  If your buddy still has the Remington 700 in the .17 does he want to sell it for a reasonable amount?  It's not the .17 round itself.  The .17 caliber Remington barrels suck.  Thier barrels is what's giving the .17 Rem its bad reputation.  My brother has a CZ in the .17 Rem and he shoots prairie dogs all day long without running a rod through it with the accuracy not changing.  My .02 on the .17 idea.  If your buddy still has the 700, tell him to put a good barrel on it.  That's all it needs.  I wouldn't even change the caliber because it's a pretty bad little caliber(with the right barrel) for prairie dogs.  Makes them fly!

Quoted: I was thinking about building a .17 Rem. upper for my AR.  Does the company you got you barrel from offer it in a .17 Rem?

barrel blanks for 17 cal aren't much more than 20 cal.  i think the issue comes potentially with the gas system.  set it up just like mine with an adjustable gas block and you'd likely be fine.  i'm not certain on the bolt either.  i think it is the same as the .204 Ruger, 5.56 /.223, but i don't know.  verify these things, obviously, before moving forward.

you can contact superior arms for your needs.  

olympic arms offers the .17Rem today - FYI.

hope this helps.

-septic tank

Arrrrgh I wish we had pdogs up here......It looks so damn fun.  Nice gun.  

Nice rig....

Thanks for the info.  The .17 is based off the .223 sized base just like the .204.  I've priced some .17 and .204 barrels and they range from $350 up to $465.  My .223 does great for the prairie dogs.  For that much I can buy another varmint upper and start building another .223.  I've been considering jumping into a AR 10 in the .308 so I can shoot some 1000 yard stuff.  The AR 10 would be cheaper than the Rem 700 as a M24 clone.

I'd like to know how the .204 would do with the prairie dogs.  From what little I've heard they seem to be doing well.  My brother has a CZ in the .17 Rem and it tears them little critters up.

Thanks again for the info.

thanks for the replies guys.  

the .204 according to some feedback i trust is a real fun gun.  i routinely use 40gr vmax and btip in .223 when i go west.  it'll literally rain pdog parts...  lots of fun when you have your rig weighted in such a way it doesn't move when fired - watching bullet impact, especially when violent is part of the reason i set my units up the way i do.  i have a friend with a .17rem and this weekend he loaded some 15gr bullets from berger.  at least i thought he said they were from berger.  either way, they sizzled - 4360FPS nominal velocity with a high of 4414FPS!!!!  probably hard on the barrel, but much harder on the pdog.  that kind of velocity will tear them apart.

good times...

thanks again for the comments fellas!

if anyone builds a .17Rem or uses one in the AR platform i'd really be interested in your experience with it and the associated feedback.

thanks again,

septic tank

I wonder if there is a way to get it under .5 MOA?

AR15barrels
How much would a .17Rem or .204 cost from you?  Just the barrel and extension.  24" bull of course.  My little AR has a 16" bull on it now and that works great for those air conditioned prairie dog tripshe
Septic-Tank
My brothers .17Rem does the same thing to the pasture maggots.  I remember one that had to have spread a good twenty feet.  It was pretty nasty but that's the fun of ithey.  I just ordered a Jard adjustable trigger for my AR.  I don't know how good they are but I'm fixing to find out.  I liked the 1.5lb trigger pull and I didn't really want the two stage.  We'll find out in a few days.  Thanks again.

Glock
Are you talking about the AR's or the .17 Rem or .204 under .5MOA?  The AR's with the bull barrels are very accurate with the right load and shooter of course.  I don't have any experience with the service type barrels so I don't know how accurate they are.  The .17 Rem's are very accurate too and I'm sure the .204's are just as accurate.  You just have to play with different powders, bullets, and so on until you find one the gun likes.  Just remember that faster isn't always better.

Superior Arms must be out of the office.  I emailed them about a .204 upper last Thursday and they still haven't responded.

Some may disagree with me but I've been looking at both and can't see a real big difference in the two.  I would probably go with the 20 caliber just because the price difference.  Plus those tiny little bullets look like a pain in the neck as far as reloading.  My brother has a .17 Rem and always complains about the size of the necks and bullets but loves the performance.  It will be alittle while before I can do anything financially.  I have a prairie dog trip planned the first of May and I just spent a little more money on the AR.  I also have to buy another cylinder for my four wheeler next week.  Sand drag racing is another hobby of mine.  I was wanting a 22 magnum in a bolt gun and been checking out the Savages since they have the Accu-Trigger in the rimfires now.  I think another upper in a .204 might be in front of the 22 magnum now though.

What brands of barrel blanks do you sell?  I have the wilson barrel now in the .223 with a 1-12 twist.  It loves the 40gr V-Max's plus the prairie dogs have a bigger splatter.  I would definately want a heavy varmint barrel.  How much extra is the fluted versus non fluted?  I don't really have a preference in stainless or chromoly or fluted or non fluted.  Just as long as it's a good barrel.  That's my only preference.  Anyway, thanks again.

Quoted: Some may disagree with me but I've been looking at both and can't see a real big difference in the two.  I would probably go with the 20 caliber just because the price difference.  Plus those tiny little bullets look like a pain in the neck as far as reloading.  My brother has a .17 Rem and always complains about the size of the necks and bullets but loves the performance.

if i remember correctly Berger just came out with some 15gr units for varminting.  that is half the size of the 20 cal stuff you see around.  one of the guys i go west with is loading them currently.  we'll see how they perform.  i would imagine the velocity will be high, but i have a concern about how the little guys will buck the wind...  we'll see.

as for reloading - yes....  anything small like that is a bitch.  i also understand Berger or Sierra (can't remember which) just offered a boat tail varmint bullet in the small grain 17 cal offerings.  this will help when handloading.  also, i've notice the hornady dies with the floating "neck" that moves up and down in the die helps a great deal when trying to hold those little tiny bullets in place as they move up into the seater...

hope this information helps.  i'll make a quick post or IM you guys about the super small gr stuff we shoot in coming weeks if you want.

-septic tank

I saw the 15gr Berger bullets last night looking through my Midway book.  That is tiny.  The thing is already hitting 4100-4300 fps.  I wouldn't doubt 4500fps from that little thing.  It should be pretty devastating on the prairie doghave
I shoot the 40gr V-Max's in the .223 and they're pretty small but they also have the boat tail.  I couldn't imagine a 15gr .17 caliber.  It should fly quite quickly.  Let me know how they react to a prairie dog.  It should be good as long as they stay together at that speed.

ARdoghunter,

you say you shoot the 40 vmax's?  you loading them or using Black Hills, Ultramax, or what?  have you checked the velocity?  

i ask simply because i'm questioning how much i can actually gain by going to .204 or .17...  i know the velocity will climb, but at a cost.  this doesn't bother me, i'm just trying to figure out the rate at which i'm spending for the associated thrill...  if 40gr in .223 kicks ass, and can be bought off the shelf for $16 per 50 rounds, i'll never touch that kind of economic scale with .204 or .17...

your thoughts?

-septic tank

I shoot the Hornady 40gr vmax out of a 24" AR with a 1in12 twist. They shoot real well for factory ammo. I need to check the speed.
I want to try some 30gr Calhoon bullets that are for the 22 hornet. I wonder if the are long enough for the .223? A 30gr bullet would scream out of a 223.

sounds like a good option.  i suppose i'll just have to load a few and try.  i have a 1/9 barrel.  it has proven to be extremely versatile, but when the bullets get tiny, i'm sure it'll do the trick.  reckon i'll give it a whirl and see...

So just how does one obtain one of these .204 uppers?

eta:  Thanks septic-tank13  

as far as a contact goes, superior, olympic, and a few others offer rifles or uppers today.  the guys on this thread from ar15barrels can set you up also.

update on accuracy.  saturday was nearly breeze free.  i set up with several boxes of Hornady 32gr vmax.  after a couple fouling shots i started concentrating on groups.  THIS RIFLE SHOOTS.  thus far, i'm very pleased.  most three and five shot groups were .5 and .6 MOA.  i had a couple in the sub .25 MOA range - nice.  i have included a pic of a ten round group i fired at the end of the day.  as you can see, it is plenty capable of accuracy.  i fired 200 rounds and these holes represent the last ten of the day.  i was pleased with the group, but i'd liked it better without the single shot away from the rest...

some of the other ammo i tested had better and worse results, but i went with what i had the most of in the ammo safe.

all shots were fired from a set of cheap caldwell bags.  the "green" set is what i hear them referred to as most often.  i used them for this simply because i take them out west and wanted to see how well i could do with exactly what i take to my pdog shoots.  i'm sure with a nice sinclair rest i could improve them more.  the barrel wasn't allowed to cool, but i was firing about 30 to 45 seconds apart.  the barrel never felt more than a little warm throughout this ten shot string.

enjoy.

so am i correct in assuming that a "standard" .223/5.56 bolt is appropriate for .204 ruger?  magazines as well?


in other words, the vital part that is different is just the barrel, correct?

i'd love to be able to interchange uppers for different caliber pdog shoots depending on my mood.  

same bolt, same everything except barrel and potentially the gas system...

to expand on this, basically depending on some particulars, you'll need to pick up an adjustable gas block and play with it until things cycle correctly.  the guys at superior can help with this more than i.  

it shoots like a laser now that i've picked out the correct ammo.  i'm working up handloads currently.

to make a .204 from a .223 AR is really simple provided you understand how to properly adjust the gas block.  shitcan the 22 cal barrel,  install the 20 cal barrel, adjust the gas block and off you go.

i was able to better feed the ramp with a slight bending of the magazine lips.  some folks claim they haven't needed to.  my cycle issues came to screaching halt after i bent them so as the bullet tip was aimed slightly higher than perpendicular to the mag well.

hth.

-ST13

so basically a 24" .204 barrel with gas block already installed would be compatible with all other "normal" .223/5.56 ar parts to build a spiffy .204 varminter eh?


now i'm getting dangerous ideas.  


i really hope my wife doesn't find this thread.  

oh i understand all that, i'm just too lazy to deal with installing a gas block myself.  

curses!  


i'm building a .223 wylde-chambered varmint rig right now with FF tube.  just have the barrel and bolt/carrier left to buy.

i know.

it was just my attempt at humor.



(it's okay, i'm really crappy at it.  just ask my wife )

Septic,
 Glad to hear the rifle is performing well.  We look forwrd to building you more uppers in the future.

Leo Williams
Superior Arms

i look forward to buying them!

you wouldn't have a 6.5 Grendel you've built up running around would you?

-ST13

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