Originally Posted By ARMY30YEARSPLUS: What Generation intensifier tube does your D760 have.  I have been so spoiled by PVS 7D tubes that I don't know if I can go back to anything of less quality in my civilian side of life.  If you have any pictures that you can post it would add to the string we have been working on. The Army Owns the Night God bless America Very Respectfully David South West Asia

I don't think Fred will mind if I answer for him? I know for a fact all the
D-760's/740's  I supply are ALL Gen III units. Suffice to say, I've not seen a Delta unit out there out perform one of our D-760's or 740's. NOT to say ther isn't a unit out there of course...BUT, when units such as these have tube specs such as a signal to noise of close to 30, photo reponses in the 2400-2700's range, these are VERY high performance tubes and it's hard to get much better. You can look on page 6 of this thread and also here.
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=209&t=148586

Just because you also asked, I'll save you some time. Here some incredible shots of the D-760.  


1X PVS-14


6X D-760


'To get back on topic a bit here of illumination, here is the same shot BUT with a D-740 (4X). I used the IR Troch to light up a telephone pole transformer and some plam trees. Bout 250M. This is the FIRSt time I am showing this pic here.  I WAS saving it, but since we were talking about illuminators I thought I would show it.


Btw, all these pics shown here were NOT taken with the help of the moon AND/OR starlight to that extent. It was a VERY hazy overcast evening.  

Originally Posted By TX_Rancher:   When I use the IR Illuminator on my ATN 6900, I noticed the wildlife often responded as if they saw the light. To check it out, I walked out ~60 yards and noticed I could see the illuninator. I moved out to 80 yards and could still see it.   Have any of you gone down range to see if your IR illuminators are visible? I was looking into buying an ELR IR illuminator, but if it's visible, I might as well stay with my ATN.   If the ELR is visible, are there any other options worth looking into? The majority of my shots are within 200 yards, and the 450 mW ATN works fine except for being visible to the wildlife.

Hi, 90% of all IR illuminators out there have a faint red glow due to the light spectrum in the 805-810nm.  I've been working with a 940nm IR illuminator that just didn't have the power I would have liked to see, but no faint red glow.  I've also have had reports of game seeing light in the IR spectrum, I would like to research this a bit.  I have a customer in Alaska (a guide) whom I've asked to test one of my torches out there against all sorts of BIG and small game, such as griz, wolves, yotes, mountain goats, etc.  I will publish his reports as I get them.  Hope this helps.

Originally Posted By TX_Rancher: Dumping the Crusader and shifting to a D-740/760 would probably solve the issue for me. By far, the majority of my shots are in open fields just outside the tree line. I very rarely take shots into the woods. From the pictures I’ve seen posted of the D-740/760 scopes, I wouldn’t need the IR, where with my Crusader I need it whenever the moons not out (unless the shot is within ~50 yards, then starlight seems to be enough). Victor:   I’m very interested in how your research into 940 nm turns out. My ATN illuminator puts out considerably more then a faint red glow, at least in my opinion. I may still try the ELR and see if it gives off less visible light.   When do you think you will have your results and a product on the market? Do you have any idea what the price would be?   What type of scope will your Alaska customer be using to test your prototype illuminator? I assume Gen 3 or above…

You're correct about the D760's and 740's very rarely do I need any type of illumination.  

The 940 I am testing it still VERY early in the development stage. No time frame if and when it will be produced. A 2 deg model is also being looked at with a range of 500+ thus far.

The Alaska customer is using a hand-select MUM for his game testing and is using my regular ELR (Da-Torch) Illuminator for his work, not the 940.  

This weekend and next I will be conducting a very good comparison of 4 different illumininators out in the general market. They will consist of the following,

Surefire M1
Pentagon
ATN
ELR, (Da-Torch)

I would have conducted this test several months back if it were not for the 2 month wait for the PEntagon light. I will be posting the results on my industry forum. ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=2&f=209 Of course, lots of pics will follow the reviews. Hope this helps,

Vic

IMHO, The PAQ4 series just aint enough juice - it is fine for aiming -- but does not put out a lot to indicate tgts's -- for work I consider the PEQ-2 series to be th emin.

Ideally something with IR Laser and Illumin/flood plus a vis laser the IS 7500 version of the PEQ-2A I had was ideal for that -- now I want something in a Attila size with a vis light too....


Vic -- ordered - we shall see....

IMHO, The PAQ4 series just aint enough juice - it is fine for aiming -- but does not put out a lot to indicate tgts's -- for work I consider the PEQ-2 series to be th emin.

Ideally something with IR Laser and Illumin/flood plus a vis laser the IS 7500 version of the PEQ-2A I had was ideal for that -- now I want something in a Attila size with a vis light too....


Vic -- ordered - we shall see....

Originally Posted By KevinB: IMHO, The PAQ4 series just aint enough juice - it is fine for aiming -- but does not put out a lot to indicate tgts's -- for work I consider the PEQ-2 series to be th emin. Ideally something with IR Laser and Illumin/flood plus a vis laser the IS 7500 version of the PEQ-2A I had was ideal for that -- now I want something in a Attila size with a vis light too.... Vic -- ordered - we shall see....

Hi ya Kev....Interesting all this laser talk!  It's funny you should mention a 3 beam model unit. Have you heard of the new DBAL-A (squared?) from Laser devices?  I am putting one through its paces for an upcoming demo.  It has an adjustable 1 to 60 deg IR illum., and IR laser/visible laser at (.58cm sq. at 25M) all in one unit in the size of short cigarette pack!  35mW for the IR portions (I know you like more power) and 5mW (635nM) for the vis laser. Thus far, only had it a short time, but I like what I'm seeing.  I will be posting a full review on my Industry forum once I get to a full field test. MUCH more to come.




Also, I agree with you assessment of course with the PAQ-4C. It's a workhorse for aiming portion duties, as it's very quick for head-up at the ready type engagements.

Originally Posted By alaskasteve: Okay, I'm the Alaskan guy Vic has referred to.  I just purchased a MUM from Vic along with a few other items including (Da Torch) which I will comment on here as it seems to be Da Place to do it. First off I want to thank Vic for all his advise and support which has been tops.. I've been out several times this last week testing out the equipment.   Set Da Torch up on my Bushmaster last week and did a few small patrols with the NV gear up the valley I live in.. Terrain is a mix of spruce forest with occasional gravel bars along a river bed with a few nice open area's to call in..  First night out it was snowing pretty good.  Hit Da Torch from a high bank and scanned river bed and opposite banks..50-200m range.. Da Torch totally penetrates da snow falling. I will say it is almost to bright for close in work but you already new that.. I wonder if a flip up IR hood could be used over Da Torch for close in stuff..  I also have an OTAL laser on my AR and by itself it really blooms with nightvision but if I hit Da Torch it knocks the blooming down significantly.. On second outing I did a little calling and spotted some eye's out around 200m in the brush but could not get more of a response than that.   I have an EoTech and I'm finding its really only effective out to about 100m..  At this point I started feeling like I maybe should have purchased pvs-14 with a 3X magnifier for night hunting and game observation.. Courts still out on that. A couple days later I drove out to a frozen lake in the mountains and set up a few targets at various ranges from 50m out to 300m.   With Eo Tech and MUM  I was nailing milk jugs every round out to 100m and from there it got sketchy.. Same thing with laser and MUM...  with MUM, laser and Da Torch increased range a little but did notice that when the laser hit a piece of firewood I had put out at 150m it would reflect a little and was able to get some hits on that target but not consistant.  Hooked the MUM and Da Torch up to my Leoupold spotting scope on 12X and with the laser I could easily engage targets with consistant hits out to 300m..   It was a little tricky as I had to keep readjusting the spotting scope to new targets but I think I could have easily hit a milk jug size target out to 400m.. Without Da Torch I was loosing so much light through the scope that I couldn't even see the targets out to 200m..  With Da Torch it wasn't even fair.. It would be fun to put the D-760 through a work out with Da Torch.  Someday... Sorry to be so long winded.  Hope this gives some useful info for someone.. I'm new to nightvision and all the stuff that goes along with it but am excited to begin working with it.

Steve,

Thanks for the in-depth review. You have brought up so many important points to consider. The through the day optic light loss is substantial at high mag and indeed "Da-Torch" works extremely well to help this loss of precious light.  Your synopsis on all this verifies for those who can afford it, a dedicated NV rifle scope pays high dividends!

The OTAL blooming is not suprising at all.  I have a call into the laser dev. folks to confirm if they have a diffuser or a Optical Attenuator as they do for their IR systems.

Nice shooting btw, VERY nice in the dead of night!

Originally Posted By -Watcher-: Are we likely to see a post at some point which organizes all this data into a unit-by-unit comparisoon?  I'd like to see something that indicates ranges, power, battery life, and suggested applications. At the moment, I'm conducting OTS research for a non-government group for the purpose of assembling a complete visible illumination package.  The next phase will focus on NVDs and related aiming/illumination accessories, including compatible tactical and rifle scopes.  It would be nice to be able to plan ahead.  I conducted NVD research a few years ago, but technology advances and it seems most of my old data, which at the time seemed to elevate the mini-14 for civilian use, needs to be redone to include laser aiming devices (visible and IR) and IR ilumination. It'll be difficult to recommend a kit that has a dozen expensive pieces to groups and companies that use my services because they can't support a dedicated research staff.  Thus, in my opinion, a whole system should be looked at, component by component, from the ground up.  As some of you have noted, it's not enough to have the best IR device if it doesn't work well with your scope or NVD.  Keeping the system simple, well integrated for a variety of applications, with commonality of power source and accessories, is a strong selling point.  The term "best" is subjective, after all. Vic, I look forward to having a long discussion with you and others once I've established a thread for that phase.

Watcher, one of Kev's buds has one of the best sites for Lasers and such. This was listed WAY back on this thread. (Arghhhh ONLY wish we could have our own dedicated NV forum soon!)
www.nightoperations.com/lasers.htm
Has MUCH of the info that can get you started in the right direction.  

I will be doing a field comparison VERY soon on numerous laser systems as I think this needs to be done. Your project sounds very interesting.  

Vic,

I am at the US Embassy in Kabul now -- so no doorkicking firebeathing stuff for me now -- but that new toy looks very nice.

I have 3 Attila's on order (see if I get them) but its too much for what I really need these days -- so I may be interested in a few of those bad boys if you can ship to APO AE's....

If I get the NVEC order we can play swapsees

Roger that Kev, thought you might be out again for a bit.  

Originally Posted By -Watcher-: Originally Posted By Victor: Watcher, one of Kev's buds has one of the best sites for Lasers and such. This was listed WAY back on this thread. (Arghhhh ONLY wish we could have our own dedicated NV forum soon!) www.nightoperations.com/lasers.htm Has MUCH of the info that can get you started in the right direction. I saw the link while reading the entire thread before posting.  One category of information that it lacks, and the NVD industry websites lack this in general, by the way, is any indication of what is available to the non-governmental purchaser. There's really no value in getting worked up over some uber piece of equipment you'd never be able to purchase.  Is there no source or post that can be made to this thread that might let civilians know what they have to choose from?

You're correct of course that the FDA regulattes ANY IR laser as being illegal for sale (new from a manufacturer) and are automatically classifed as Class IIIB lasers.www.fda.gov/cdrh/radhlth/pdf/lasgde01.pdf So it's pretty slim pickin's for the non-govy folk.

As for the value of getting worked up...They're plenty of LE and govy folks around that deem this information VERY useful.  I routinely conduct demos and review all types of IR lasers. I am just about to complete one of LD's DBAL (sqaured) all in one IR Laser/Illum with a Vis Laser.

Originally Posted By -Watcher-: Surely.  And it wasn't my intention to suggest there was no implicit value in a group discussion of equipment produced by the industry.  Rather, being now in receipt of this information, I'm interested in a way of making it useful for my purposes.

I understand

Originally Posted By -Watcher-: When last I looked into NVD products, one of the problematic aspecs was not that I couldn't locate a device that did precisely what I had been asked to find, but that noone could sell it to me.  LIFs are a perfect example.  You can't even get them for binoculars.  So, before I get too far into coordinating the purchase of compatible illuminators, NVDs, and weapon sights, it seems prudent to determine what can actually be assembled into a kit.

Your research should include calls to NVEC, Laser Devices Inc., Insight Technologies, and ITT etc. to get their official insight to what they offer to the public.  I can tell you officially that there are NO Federal restrictions on NVD's OR Thermal systems.  Now NVEC has a company policy that does not allow direct sales to the public.  LIF's are NOT Federally restricted, just the company restricting them.  I DO know the DOD has BIG leverage sticks when it comes down to what a company makes available. The number one reason is to insure all govy contracts are completed and/or supply quantities are maintained. ITT is another example on their mil-spec NV units. Once again, these are NOT restricted in any way from the feds.  Supply and demand to our military is at an all time high, thus, ITT will not sell mil-spec units to the commercial market.  

I imagine this market segment is so small, comparatively, that the industry utterly ignores it, which does nothing to help.  Of course, that segment can never be more than marginal until someone demarginalizes it.  But you get conflicting recommendations, which only serves to exemplify the lack of even awareness from the industry.

Agreed, the NVD optics market as a whole is very small compared to day systems, thus we see VERY few reviews in gun magazines, publications etc. The articles we do see, (such as SWAT magazines NVD review last August) was a VERY poor review of an early Gen model (My opinion of course). There have been other reviews over the years that were just as poor in content and validity. Thus, I understand your dilemma on conflicting recommendations.  My advice, once again talk with some technical folk I mentioned above to get the answers you need.  

As I approach visible illumination, for example, it's recommended (from a dealer) that IR filters for Surefire Millennium units be eschewed in preference for a true IR illuminator and target designator for a particular task.  If only they were available.  When speaking of non-government users, it becomes a vicous cycle.  But, rather than being frustrated and taking it out on this thread, I'm merely interested in whether there actually is a website or other source that can simply tell me what civilians have to choose from ... so progess can be made toward a kit clients will be able to acquire.  With the assembled group being who they are, this seemed like the right bunch to ask.

Kinda confused here....A Surefire M1 Millennium IS a dedicated IR illuminator.  Why would anyone put an IR filter on this? Some in the industry think that because of the faint (naked eye) red glow the IR LEDS's produce is to place an IR filter over the illuminator. If you do this, you will lose almost ALL the IR light. This does not make sense.

As for choosing a dedicated IR illuminator over a filter consider this; It's common knowledge (to me anyway,) ANYTIME you place a infrared filter over an incandescent light source, you lose a large portion of that light, thus, a dedicated IR LED is the best and effective way to throw out the most IR light. (But, it also depends on what your mission calls for, see below)  The other option of course is to employ a true IR laser illuminator, but you run into the FDA restrictions for the commercial folks of course. These choices all depend what distances your mission calls for.   For CQB in dark structures, a M900 with an IR filter works very well out to 15 feet.  Next comes the M1 Millennium out to 50 yards, BUT with a naked eye faint red glow seen out to the 50 yards. The 2nd (IMHO) for long range is "Da Torch" ELR with an effective range out to 300 yards. The third (to rid all naked eye red glow) is to get an IR laser/illuminator. Effective range varies from 0 to 1000yards +.

As for an ALL encompassing web site/source dedicated to all your concerns and interests in the NVD world?  Not yet!

Watcher, I might has some options for you in the future. I am sure you have seen the IWAL 2 by now (which is an IR laser). We (Hayes Research and I) are looking at doing a dual model that will have a visible laser on one side and an IR on the other. Stay tuned.....



C4

www.GRTactical.com

Originally Posted By -Watcher-: You're actually reinforcing virtually the same statements made over on the visible side of the market when I brought up this project.  So, let's say we end up breaking the package into pieces parts.  My original idea was a Surefire M96x unit with an IR filter for both visible and NVD applications.  As you and the dealer point out, the effect of the filter can end up being less than desireable.  So, we drop the filter and add a Surefire M1 IR LED to overcome this, but still lack either a visible or IR targeting laser.  Assuming some unnamed visible laser is added, we're still lacking an IR laser targeting device, which now we cannot acquire.  To top it off, there are now three units mounted on the rail system, adding significant weight and cost.  Without the IR laser, add a weapon-mountable NVD, plus a compatible reflex or target weaponsight.  It's a package which is hard to sell to the private sector, but there appears to be little to no options.  Unless I'm wrong.

Once again, depending on your mission requirements, an IR filter could work out ok. I also try to tell my NV folk, that a visible laser while using a NVD is incredibly effective as well if absolute stealth is not a priority. But then again using ANY lighting device is NEVER stealthy. Once again, it ALL depends on what ones mission requirements are.  

I wish the DBAL (squared) I talked about earlier in this thread were available to qualified commercial folk as well. It has everything you could want in ONE package. I understand your dilemma and you're not alone. Unless the FDA changes its stringent policy on ALL IR lasers being classified as Class IIIb lasers, (but that doesn’t seem likely,) your legality choices are presently limited. Hope this helps.

Vic

Originally Posted By -Watcher-: Originally Posted By C4iGrant: Watcher, I might has some options for you in the future. I am sure you have seen the IWAL 2 by now (which is an IR laser). We (Hayes Research and I) are looking at doing a dual model that will have a visible laser on one side and an IR on the other. Stay tuned..... I have seen this unit on another thread.  The only "down side" I can envision to it, believe it or not, is commonality of power supply when integrated into a kit.  All other components -- reflex sight (Tripower), Surefire M9xx illuminator, Surefire M1 IR illuminator, NVM-001 -- all operate from CR123A cells.  Logistics are a cinch with the LMT SOPMOD stock and MIAD grip with CR123 core providing adequate on-weapon storage for spares. Speaking again of ideals, an IWAL unit with both visible and IR lasers operating from a common CR123A power supply would be even better.  That is, unless the run time on the current battery type (?) is ridiculously long.  Of course, how can you sell an IR laser to civilians?

The IWAL 2's use a CR123A battery. They are sold as non functioning laser. The end user has to make them work.


C4

Originally Posted By Paje: I feel your pain -Watcher- First the food pyramid, then nutrasweet, now IR laser restrictions?!  What's with the FDA anywayz?? Looks like there's a lil loophole being worked (Hayes) and that may be a great option (you have a link to more info on your site Grant?).  I'd like to see a dual IR/Vis laser akin to the DBAL.  I decided to go extra-jurisdictional (shopping outside the US) and picked up a Newcon Optik LAM10 3A, which is working out quite nicely (in combo with a PVS-14).  Here's a couple of images: tinypic.com/jj5jic.jpg tinypic.com/jj5k3l.jpg

Here is some additional info and pics: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=20&t=261074


C4

Could we keep this thread going in a Non-Sales ad here??

Originally Posted By sdv811: Does anyone have experience with PEQ-2A beam divergence/spot size, in practice? I am currently using a PEQ, and have noticed the target laser spot size is 3-4 inches in diameter at approximately 125 feet. The spec, from what I can gather at nivisys.com, is 0.3 mrad. So, unless I am messing-up the math, I should see a spot diameter of around 0.4 inches at 120 feet. It is possible some of what I observe could be blooming or surface refraction - but my experience with IR lasers is limited, so I am not sure. As per this thread's suggestions, I tried the combined mode of target pointer and illuminator. Target pointer spot size did appear smaller when used in conjunction with the illuminator, but not by much. I am using a variety of target surfaces; dirt/rock berms, folliage, and stucco building walls. Any thoughts on what I have observed? Are PEQ-2As typically out-of-spec with regard to pointer spot divergence; or, am I seeing a blooming or refraction effect, even with the combined target spot and illuminator?

This one might be hard to tell just visually speaking.  You're correct on the blooming issue at this distance!  Most if not all units I've worked with show the pointer beam just a tad bit smaller than the illuminator as well.  

Vic