I have been looking like many of you for the ultimate optic.  Something with Aimpoint speed and 1X while at the same time a high powered mildot long range scope with illuminated reticle.







The Schmidt and Bender Short dot short dot seems to come as close as anything as I can find to ideal but weight, battery life and PRICE are the big turn offs.  There is a guy who is willing to sell these scopes at $20 over dealer cost.  I would like to know if anyone has anything interesting to add or links to other threads on other boards concerning this optic.  It should be Everything a US Optics SN4 but lighter and better with longer battery life.

ANYTHING anyone has to add would be greatly appreciated.

Schmidt and Bender short dot scope info from them:

Very quickly going from room clearings to long range engagements is the nature of urban combat.  Choosing the best weapon sight for this environment usually means having a good set up for one scenario, and not so great for the other.  The Schmidt and Bender 1.1-4X20 Short Dot Scope fills the specialised requirement of the urban combat sight.  At 1.1X this scope handles much like any other dot sight.  The dot is fast to aquire and the eye rellief is very forgiving.  The slight magnification is nearly undetectable and has no noticable impact on NVG focus or clarity.  The illuminated dot is super imposed over a cross hair reticle with Mil indexes for rangefinding.  Dot brightness control is via positive click adjustment with NVG settings. At 4X this scope exceeds by far the optical clarity and brightness of commonly used military compact scopes.  With its 30 mm tube, range finding reticle and BDC, the short dot is a true sniper quality scope.


Length: 10.5" (ouch)
Weight: 18.7oz (ouch)
Diopter +2 to -3
Eye relief 3.25"
Parallax: fixed at 100m
1/4 MOA click adjustments
Front focal plane reticle
FOV is 32m at 1X 10m at 4X

MSRP $2100-2200 (OUCH)

Like I said this unit is being sold at a significant discount so its not going for MSRP.

Other than the reticle it appears identical to the S&B 1.1-4x20 police scope with flash dot.


1.1–4 x 20 CQB Police Marksman II
One of the most flexible, practical military and law enforcement scopes ever produced. A separate turret with 11 click stops controls the illumination function of a precise red dot at the center of the reticle. Stops 1 to 3 provide varying illumination intensities at very low levels, designed for use with night vision goggles. Stops 4 to 6 provide slightly higher levels of intensity to be used by the naked eye in low light conditions, allowing the shooter to determine the precise aim point against a dark target that would obscure non-illuminated reticles.

Stops 7 through 11 illuminate the center dot to very high intensities. With illumination switched off, the CQB functions as a standard scope with non-illuminated crosshairs. This is the first time that all possible applications of different illuminated reticle technologies have been combined into one rifle scope. Four bullet drop compensators are supplied for 5.56 mm cartridges, including the Green Tip, 75 gr. Hornady, Lake City 16 and Lake City 20. Tested and approved by the U.S. military.

Available with special CQB and No. 7 reticles.




I know the short dot uses a "special" CQB reticle.  I assume its the only difference.  However the stats are slightly differnet but could be problems in converting metric to standard.

SPECS

The only mount available for it is a LaRue mount.  It will mount a perfect 1.5" high.  It IS very heavy but let us compare it to the 3X Aimpoint kit.  

The Aimpoint 3 X magnifier ADDS 10.8oz to your gun.  A Comp M2 weighs 7.1 oz without mount.  So we are talking about 3X vs 4X when in high magnification mode and a difference of weight less than 2oz.  Th weight would not be unbearable.  It is certainly lighter than the SN4 which weighs 26oz with no mount.

Scopes like the NXS, Leupold and IOR offer competeing scopes for less but do not offer true Aimpoint full daytime style illumination.  US Optics claims max intensity lasts UNDER 12 hours run time.  S&B claims over 100 hours run time on a single battery and the scope holds a spare battery under the windage cap.

reticle:





CQB Reticle
Designed specifically for our 1.1–4 x 20 CQB scope, this sophisticated reticle is extremely fine at low magnifications, obscuring almost none of the target, while the detailed center section becomes useable for precise rangefinding at higher magnifications.

Our newest Flash Dot technology provides three different illumination levels, completely controllable in a separate turret. Stops 1 to 3 provide varying illumination intensities at very low levels, designed for use with night vision goggles. Stops 4 to 6 provide slightly higher levels of intensity to be used by the naked eye in low light conditions, allowing the shooter to determine the precise aim point against a dark target that would obscure non-illuminated reticles. Stops 7 through 11 illuminate the center dot to very high intensities. With illumination switched off, the CQB functions as a standard scope with non-illuminated crosshairs.




There are two stated battery lifes... this is for the newer flash dot.  Regular illuminated scopes were said to do 60 hours. The CQB reticle in this scope is 100+ hours continuous.

In continuous use, the small, readily available battery will last over 100 hours.


In the past, a reticle with thick lateral bars was necessary to position the aim point on the dark body of a game animal in poor light.

Today, our luminous red dot or finely illuminated crosshairs perform this task much more efficiently…providing you with a precise aim point in near total darkness.

With any illuminated reticle, it is essential that its brightness can be easily adjusted. A reticle that is too bright will cause glare in the hunter's eye, interfering with his ability to see the contours of the game. This is because the pupil of the human eye closes quickly upon receiving any source of light.

Schmidt & Bender illuminated reticles provide 11 fully adjustable brightness settings, allowing you to adjust the reticle precisely to the ambient light. The power supply is switched off between the 11 click stops on the adjustment turret, allowing you to accurately preset the appropriate brightness, then turn it off with a slight turn of the dial. Not only does this conserve your battery, but it allows you to instantly restore your chosen setting while avoiding the risk of glare that can occur when brightness is turned up from the zero position. When a shot presents itself, the slightest turn from this standby position to the next click immediately illuminates the reticle to the appropriate intensity.


While the FlashDot was first conceived for daylight use, our beam splitter now allows a single scope to function as a non-illuminated riflescope under normal conditions; as a FlashDot scope in bright light; and as a fully adjustable illuminated reticle at twilight. This feature, included in some of our Zenith models, results in a single scope that is applicable to any lighting situation.

A digital chip automatically switches off the power after six hours of non-use. Just in case, an extra battery can be stored under the cover of the windage adjustment turret.

The dot is fast to aquire and the eye rellief is very forgiving. Eye relief 3.25"

Translation: The eye relief is WayTF too long for optimum on an AR15.

-z

Still its shorter than all other scope but Leupold CQT and Trijicon ACOG.  Its shorter than IOR, USO, Kahles, Zeiss, and NXS.

Does someone have the pic that was on the light fighter stud board of the Short Dot mounted on the rifle?  The user in question had it mounted flush to the rear of the reciever and raved about it.


Here is a close up of the reticle:

Quoted: The dot is fast to aquire and the eye rellief is very forgiving. Eye relief 3.25" Translation: The eye relief is WayTF too long for optimum on an AR15. -z

You have far more experience than I on the subject, so I must ask, does that really matter with something like an MRP platform?  I can see how if the eye relief were WAY too long, it could very well throw the balance off of the rifle, but the S&B short dot is only .85" longer than a TA-11.  So, combine the short dot with an MRP (or other continuous rail platform) and an adjustable stock with comfortable cheek weld and you should be good to go, correct?  Or am I missing something else here?

As always, your wisdom is appreciated.

For those of us who shoot nose-to-charging-handle, mounting such an optic is certainly easier on an MRP type platform.  I don't know if the Larue SPR mount will put it quite far enough forward for my taste, or not, on a regular upper.

I guess I don't really like how it puts so much weight forward.

Shorten this type of scope by about 50% and cut the weight by 1/3 and I'd be much happier.

-z

Quoted: At a much lower price is the Nightforce 1-4x that was shown at the ShotShow and are due for release by the end of the year.   I wonder how the NF compare to the S&B. photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/Picture-052.jpg photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/Picture-052a.jpg I think this is a pic of the S&B at the shotshow this year.

Daytime illumination??
Is that a new LaRue tactical scope mount? It looks different from the ones I have seen before from LaRue.

Quoted: At a much lower price is the Nightforce 1-4x that was shown at the ShotShow and are due for release by the end of the year.   I wonder how the NF compare to the S&B. photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/Picture-052.jpg photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/Picture-052a.jpg I think this is a pic of the S&B at the shotshow this year.

Night force has longer eye relief by .25" (bad). Reticle is not as bright (bad).  It has a smaller FOV (bad) Its 1.8" shorter and 2.2 oz lighter and costs $600 less (all good)

My main concern with the Nightforce scope is the lack of reticle brightness during the day out doors.  Its not truly BAC capable at high noon nor is it as bright as an Aimpoint.  I also doubt it has as long of a battery life as the S&B scope.  

The FOV difference is insignificant since its so much less expensive and lighter and shorter.  Though every .25 of additional eye relief is another .25 you have to mount the scope forward so I dont like the 3.5" eye relief.  

If the S&B was the size and weight and cost of the Nightforce 1-4X it would be a no brainer.  Nightforce 1-4X also does not come with the zero stop like their other scopes can have or the 75 grain ammo cams for BDC like the S&B.

What focal plane is the Nightforce scope reticle in?

PS: Thanks for the pic addition SMGLee its nice to see it actually mounted.

I just got the USO SN-4 and love it.  Yes, it is heavier than the S&B, but it is just about indestructible, and the glass is the clearest I've ever seen and the reticle is razor sharp.  The posa-slide mount is pretty impressive, too.  It comes in custom heights and has an absolute repeatable zero capability.  

FWIW, I've seen several pics of them in use in the sandbox, mostly with contract shooters...I suppose the contractors may have deeper pockets than Uncle Sam when it comes to some things.

IIRC, the SN-4 also more than an inch shorter than the S&B, if length is a consideration.

YMMV...

Will

S&B makes great glass.  While heavy, there isn't a whole lot to choose from with this much flexibility and quality.

IMHO, a high intensity dot is overrated, and consequently, I wouldn't sweat the battery life issue.  If all you are using is a red dot, then having a high intensity dot makes sense for daytime use, but if you have the cross hairs coupled with it, it's redundant.  If needed in true CQB situation, center target in between the thick portions of the cross hairs and have it.  If you doubt that this is effective, check out Lumpy's post several weeks ago about using a Aimpoint as a huge ghost aperture sight -- he had good hits out to 25-30 yds IIRC.  At the same time, having a low/med intensity dot makes great sense when shooting at dusk or peering into dark, shaded areas.

Is reticle 1st or 2nd planeNevermind, just read your specs again; that will affect how the rangefinder works.  Also, do the ticks equate to mils or are they arbitrary?  based on the number of available tick marks, how much BDC/holdover capability does this provide out to what range?

The more I think about it, this scope looks promising.  Not priced for the faint-of-wallet, but quality costs.  It would be neat to see a head-to-head face off between this, the IOR and the NF.

I'd go USO SN-4 as well,  that's my preference.

SN4 owners... I contemplated this optic about 5 times in the last 5 years... weight always was the factor that held me back.

You have to add in a rail to mount the USO to the reciever as you cant slide it on from the front  because of  room and to do it from the rear would require removal of the BUIS.  It already weighs over 2 pounds with mount before you add the spacer rail to yourt flat top.  I think most of us are really trying to get by with a solution that weighs less than 40 oz.

USO battery life is UNDER 12 hours.

Those two things make it unacceptable for soldiers in the field and a great many of the private purchasers too.  Reticle is also not mildot for those interested in such things.  Im sure you could order one with it though.

jmart,

The IOR has fallen apart or malfunctioned on several users I have Emailed. I would not feel comfortable using it.   Reticle is dim too during the day.

The reticle chart is mils that I posted for S&B and its first plane reticle.  I dont thnk the battery life issue is over rated at all.  During the day it allows BAC quick sighting on distant targets without "hunting" for your target in magnified view. I have tried the 1X Leupold CQT and found it harder to see in cluttered backgrounds than an Aimpoint for sure.

How much is the S&B?  These capabilities are exactly what I'm looking for for my new .308 AR.

Wholesale cost is around $1600.  Retail is around $2200.  There is a dealer who will sell them at $20 over cost right now on Tactical Forums.  That is why I made this post.  Its a ton of cash but I see few other options other than the Nightforce or US Optics scopes both of which are over $1000 anyway.

Threads on the S&B at TF

Thread on sale of unit

Thread where TA31 and S&B 1.1-4x20 are discussed

Very interesting.  Would look good on an MRP, which could put it in the running for the world's most expensive upper  

OK, somebody had to do it:



It is outstanding.  It is heavy.  But it seems to be worth the weight penalty.  It is expensive.  The clarity is outstanding.  .22 holes are readily visible at 100 yds.  I swear this is the first scope I ever zeroed with two three shot groups, it was that close out of the box.

At 1.1 x with the dot on 10 or 11 in bright sun, it feels as fast as an Aimpoint (didn't have a timer to compare).  Eye relief is not critical, but of course you need t keep your head somewhere near the center of the stock.  At 4x with the dot on, it works just like  BAC ACOG.

Since it is a first plane reticle, both the dot and the crosshairs get larger at increased magnification.  It uses a CR2032 battery, like th Tasco Propoints - not the same as an AImpoint, that would be too convenient.

I am building an upper just for this scope, which will be either an SPR barrelled 18, or one of Denny's new SS midlength 16s.

10/4/04 1
SN-4 1-4x Circle chevron reticle, lit 1350.00 NEW

I just downloaded this from the USO website. I don't own one, but cant let myself buy from anyone but USO.

That said:

Matt in Virginia is an outstanding guy to deal with, and you can buy with total confidence. I haven't dealt with him, but several friends and acquaintances have and love this guy.

Anyone wanting a Schmidt und Bender product should give Matt a go.

God bless those fellas going to the box. Watch your 6, and get what you think will keep you alive.....

)
Keeping up with them Joneses sure ain't easy (so says Kisara )

Do the S&B knobs have zero-stop or 1/2 revolution turns only?

Quoted: Quoted: OK, somebody had to do it: Im starting to not like you

Ditto. That is just awesome. No other words can describe it.

Quoted: ) Keeping up with them Joneses sure ain't easy (so says Kisara )

Yeah, but I have no night vision                                 (yet)

Quoted: Do the S&B knobs have zero-stop or 1/2 revolution turns only?

Zero stop on elevation (actually, zero minus one), plus or minus 12 MOA on the windage with zero stop.  1/2 MOA clicks.

Quoted: Im starting to not like you

Dude, it's too heavy for you, regardless of its awesome capability .  You might like it with the Aimpoint though (see other MRP Goodness Thread)

Quoted: Ditto. That is just awesome. No other words can describe it.

Thanks

Can you do a battery life test for us and post pics of the reticle in daytime both magnified and not?  Pretty please?

So when are we going to see the S&B PMII 3-12x50 on an SPR?

-z

tag

bsbg,


         You ARE the man


Semper Fi
Jeff

Quoted: Can you do a battery life test for us and post pics of the reticle in daytime both magnified and not?  Pretty please?

Battery life will be tough, you'd have to fiddle with it every 6 hours to keep it from auto shut-off.  Here is a lame attempt at reticle pics

1.1x, no dot - crosshairs are very faint:



1.1x with dot, set  too bright for conditions



4x with dot, again too bright:



4x, no dot

Very interesting product. Thanks for the photos! Perhaps you might also add them to the reticle view thread for future reference?

Quoted: Why the hell cant someone design Aimpoint battery life into a durable 1-4x variable??   May be a little bulky and heavy, but it'd be worth it.

That's the question I ask myself everytime I see a new illuminated scope.

Quoted: Why the hell cant someone design Aimpoint battery life into a durable 1-4x variable??   May be a little bulky and heavy, but it'd be worth it.

The market for this would be huge. I would buy 2, at least. Hell, Eotech battery life works for me as well.

All the variable scopes that I have seen (which is limited) have been using button batteries, that have a lot less life than the AA batteries used in the Aimpoint or Eotech (lastest version is talking about 1500 hours on low setting with Li batteries).

Building a twin battery mount into the scope mount (can see a nice set of pods on each side of the latest LaRue scope mount ....) and running a short power cable (would perfer built in) to the battery compartment, would be one option that might give enough time with current scopes.

An after market button battery cap with cable and custom scope mount might be a possible option, if there was one iluminate tatical scope to build for ... maybe the next gerneration of Leupold?.

Wonder how many more years before there is a power rail built into your RAS and larger rechargable batteries in the stock or inside the RAS?

So when are we going to see the S&B PMII 3-12x50 on an SPR?

I'm tryin'!!

Care to donate to the "Kyle wants a scope he can't afford" fund?    

lightfighter.net/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=7336015661&f=9046084761&m=238106666&r=238106666#238106666


Hrm, what optic do you see there?

Better yet, who's mount do you see there?

The S&B retails for between $1,500 and $1,800 and comes with no mounting rings at all. It does come with BDC cams for SS109/M-855 green tip, 77gr blackhills 5.56, 173 and 168 gr 7.62 NATO (at least mine did). The mounts I got from Mark Larue to R&D because we have been playing with different heights for the optic. This is the third set that I have tested and they keep getting better. I respect the shit out of a guy that I can call and say "my PEQ-2, S&B and back up iron sights are not playing well together Mark. Can you give me another 5/8th's of an inch in height to get over the laser and push the rings forward another 1 1/2 inches"? "No problem brother... I'll have them cut, coated and in the mail by the end of the week"! Thats what I call fucking customer service!

Quoted: Why the hell cant someone design Aimpoint battery life into a durable 1-4x variable??   May be a little bulky and heavy, but it'd be worth it.

Agreed.  With decent eye relief, that would be a great general purpose optic.  

Does the short dot come with flip-up covers, or does someone like Butler Creek make sizes that will fit?

Quoted: Does the short dot come with flip-up covers, or does someone like Butler Creek make sizes that will fit?

It come with a set of clear bikini style covers, but I will be looking into BC soon.  They must have some that will work.  Of course, I always order at leat one of them wrong the first time

How would you compare it with IOR 1.1-4 I'm not concerned about IOR realability as I had GREATE experience with a lot of their products.

Nice to see that it adjusts 'too bright for conditions'. That is obviously a major plus.
Note the car with the scope mounted on a Larue, it is mounted to a hair all foreward. This indicates some eye relief problem. Does this make it? Or is this not quite foreward enough?

Quoted: Nice to see that it adjusts 'too bright for conditions'. That is obviously a major plus. Note the car with the scope mounted on a Larue, it is mounted to a hair all foreward. This indicates some eye relief problem. Does this make it? Or is this not quite foreward enough?

If you are referring to the picture in JLM's post, the scope could be mounted even farther forward if it weren't for the PEQ 2 blocking the mount.  Even with the LaRue scope mount and an unblocked  flattop, it doesn't look like the eye relief would be too long to use a standard NTCH hold.  All the more reason to get an MRP.

Quoted: I'd go USO SN-4 as well,  that's my preference.

V6,
I have one almost brand new in my gun vault , circle dot reticle & posa slide mount , if you want to get it , well ,  it's yours , so then I'll be able to buy this S&B beauty !
PP out

Quoted: How would you compare it with IOR 1.1-4 I'm not concerned about IOR realability as I had GREATE experience with a lot of their products.

Schmidt & Bender is the standard by which all other scopes are judged in terms of optical quality and build quality.  And price .

Beside the superb optical quality, the key feature of this scope is the daytime usability of the lit reticle - at 1.1x it works like an Aimpoint, and at 4x you can use the BAC just like a TA31 ACOG.  Most other illuminated reticle scopes are only for low light use.

Quoted: So when are we going to see the S&B PMII 3-12x50 on an SPR? -z

-- edit
one sec...
okay here goes





prior to me tearing it and the god awful mount off to mount my M3LR in ARMS #35M



I never got the NF in Larue mounts prior to leaving...

Just noticed this the other day:



Bleh, nevermind Chen hit some of this on page 1

after seeing this at the Shot Show, what do people think now?

Quoted: after seeing this at the Shot Show, what do people think now?

The S&B 1.1-4x20 ShortDot showed at the SS had the new lockable turrets too , it is an outstanding piece of art , already got the LaRue mount for it ..........

PP out

PP,
Do you get a better price in EU than in the US for the S&B. The price here is down right

The ultimate optic would be something normal guys can afford.

The S&B is a nice scope. It's also a bit heavy and has short battery life.

I'll stick with my Accupoint. I do wish Trigicon would make a 30mm version.