Outstanding post, thanks Lumpy.

Please remind me to not piss you off.

I'm with ya Lumpy. it worked for me in Pat's Class when I least expected it. That's why I'm not a fan of the fixed BUIS. it's clutter I don't need and out to  50 M's I can Hit ya with my $350 glass covered Ghost ring. and beyond that I have the .0001 Sec it takes to flip the little lever and have instant irons to tag someone's ass out to 300M. How guys shoot with a big Ole LMT Fixed BUIS infront off them I'll never know!!!

Lumpy , I am considering a Aimpoint for my A/2 upper with M-4 hand guards .  What is the best way to mount up and with what mount specificaly ? p.s. interesting info thanks......... P.s.s  Not trying to highjack please disregard if offended .

Well done Lump.

Thanks, appreciate the information.

MT

Thanks ..............off to see the wizard!

Lumpy:

Now that is genuinely useful information.

One thing does seem a litle counter-intuitive. The LaRue puts the Aimpoint somewhat above the "normal" iron sight plane. One would think that centering the front post in the Aimpoint would result in shots going way high. Or is this another one of those theoretical problems that just doesn't make a hoot in practical application? Quite obviously, the LaRue/front post combo works plenty good enough for any "Gotta shoot RFN!" situation.

SD

Great post Lumpy.

Does your Troy BUIS use the A1 dial?

Were you in the 196th SIB?

Steve

I've tried this. Consistent cheekweld is the key.

Outstanding post!

Thanks - very interesting and good COM hits.

Did you shoot with both eyes open or one eye shut for this drill?

BTW - that's an IPSC target. not IDPA

Good work Lumpy!   I was just reading last night (Oct/Nov.04 SWAT) where Pat Rogers suggested using the Aimpoint as a big ghost ring.    Glad to see someone actually try it, and with good results.

Awesome thread! I'd read of that technique before, but wasn't so sure f how it would work. I've gotta try it now...

-Cap'n

I'm gonna try it once it gets daylight, and I'll post my results.

If I do anywhere near as good as you did I'll be more than satisfied.

-Cap'n

Quoted: If I do anywhere near as good as you did I'll be more than satisfied. -Cap'n

No kidding...


Hmmm...maybe the wider field of view on my EOThingy has its drawbacks.  I'm going to have to try this at the range this weekend.

Nice shootin' Lumpy.

Wow, this'll be good news for Tacpoint users!


Just kidding!  No need for anyone to go all psycho.

Perhaps a dumb question...

On the Aimpoint, when you zero the optic, does the POI shift come from the dot moving around in the FOV, or does the whole FOV shift?

The dot stays optically centered.

Worked for me with my eotech also at pats class last august.... great to know you can do it if you have to... cheak weld is the key to it all like was said... i have a cut carry handle so my back up irons are always right there, but it's still a good drill to practice

-Roth

Great post for an Aimpoint type of guy!

It works pretty well with an EOThing too...

In real life, unless the situation did not permit it, I would prefer transitioning to my secondary weapon if my sight sight went down.  Though I do undertand the value of being able to use your dead optic like this as a SHTF technique...

Great post.  Another reason why I don't like the fixed BUIS... it takes away the speed advantage of the Aimpoint if you stop to align the dot in the irons.

Quoted: Wow, this'll be good news for Tacpoint users! Just kidding!  No need for anyone to go all psycho.

I was thinking the same thing.

lol... Lumpy I told you back when you replaced your arms40 for that lmt you were going down the wrong track...  

i still find my arms40 the best since I can get it up faster than other BUIS's..   it may not be the rock of that of a GG&G or a troy... but i don't look through it unless I need it...  and now as you have just shown... i may need my BUIS even less...

I always forget to do the aimpoint tube test (such as what you were doing)... hopefully this will jog my memory..

Excellent post lumpy... i love posts that accually talk about technique with carbines...    LIke any good experiment this should be repeatable... i'll post my results!

Quoted: Wow, this'll be good news for Tacpoint users!

Great post.  Cover all bases, be prepared.  I'll have to try it out as well.

Quoted: I do to, but at 5-10 yards, the speed of a rifle in my hands beats dropping it to its sling and transitioning.

I agree completely that's why I said "unless the situation did not permit it(transition)"...

Lumpy,


         I remember Pat mentioning this during a discussion a couple years ago.  Good post, thanks for the pics and info.



Stay safe



Semper Fi
Jeff

<Me nominates this for Optics Forum Thread-of-the-Year>

During some recent training I did with my Marines I had them do, unaimed reflex fire without the use of their sights on the A2s.  We found by using the pointing technique (index finger on week hand, indexes on center of the handguard and the shooter points it at the target) from the boxer stance the majority of the rounds would stay on a full silhouette target out to 25 meters, however COM hit were not common beyond 15 meters.  Some of the better shooters could do better than that, but generally it would be acceptable for combat accuracy at most common engagement ranges.

Quoted: During some recent training I did with my Marines I had them do, unaimed reflex fire without the use of their sights on the A2s.  We found by using the pointing technique (index finger on week hand, indexes on center of the handguard and the shooter points it at the target) from the boxer stance the majority of the rounds would stay on a full silhouette target out to 25 meters, however COM hit were not common beyond 15 meters.  Some of the better shooters could do better than that, but generally it would be acceptable for combat accuracy at most common engagement ranges.

Using a gun with conventional bore line and with iron sights, I can keep most shots on a 5 gallon bucket sized target out to 50 yards and beyond without using the sights, but most of my shooting with 22s happens at 25 or less yards, just with small targets.  Aim small, miss small.

 Just the gun up and keep the irons in the lower third of YOUR window.  Eyes are over the sight and you just see the barrel out of your lower field of vision.  Then just point the gun.  Most of your misses will be elevation errors, not windage.  The group size will probably be three times taller than it is wide, at least with me.

At 15 yards, I can go hit anywhere from 6 to 8 times out of 10 shots on 2.25 inch spinner targets.  Yes, I do where eye protection.  I sometimes hit aerial targets without lining up the sights, but it isn't something I conciously do.  It just happens sometimes.  I usually line up the sights.  The gun fits me really well which I have found is more important than anything.  I have shot some non-regulation trap with a rifle.  Just next to the thrower and throwing it slow.  Last time was about 2 months and about 2000 rounds in the air ago and I ran about 40% starting with the gun low and not in the shoulder.  Break them just before peak at about 30 yards.  Now I wouldn't be suprised if I could run 60% or better.  I can also throw up a tin can and shoot it 4 times before it hits the ground, although I sometimes don't get it the 4th time.  The only way to be sure is to use a fresh can for every throw.

Now, don't count this as bragging.  I am just really proud of how I improved.

The problem with instinctive shooting an AR is that because it has such a high bore line and the sights are in the way, you can't really use the barrel as a reference.  What you want is a smooth barrel with no sights in the way.  At least that is what the QUICK KILL manual says.  I find that the sights don't bother me on a 22.  But then again I use them.  What they talk about in using as a training aid on an M16 in the manual is a piece of wood taped in the carry handle and extending all the way forward to the front sight, so that you have a smooth, unimpeded line of sight.

One, way that you can use the barrel as a reference on an AR15 is to cant the gun sideways, although this would be unnatural if you didn't so it all the time and if you had a forward front grip.  I bet using the Aimpoint as a ghost ring is faster because it uses the same cheek and hand weld.

Aerial rifle shooting helped when I started shooting trap and skeet.  I shoot as soon as I can and never feel rushed.  Although I have a habit of stopping my swing, I think this comes because I have this unconcious habit of getting the empty out of the gun as soon as possible.  I don't think it would be a problem if I used a semi.  I still did 18 out of 25 in my first game of skeet ever today.

All types of shooting should become natural with enough practice.

Quoted: ....... M2 Aimpoint in a LaRue mount sighted at 50yds

Lumpy-
I just got a Aimpoint Comp C (It was free through Cabela's).  The Aimpoint mount supplied sits too low for my liking and is not sturdy enough for me.  You mention "Larue mount".
Since I am shopping for another mount for it (on an AR-15 & 10(T) carbine), I have a couple of ?'s
1).  Where did you purchase the Larue and how much $
2).  Does it raise the Aimpoint center to the center of your iron sights or BUIS?
3).  Are you happy with the quality of the mount?
4).  Do you have a pic of where you mount your Aimpoint on your rifle, do you prefer forward or back?
5).  I have a GG&G folding front sight, what rear BUIS would you recommend for the Aimpoint and Folding front sight?
Thanks-
WARDOG

Quoted: Got it from Grant at G & R Tactical Its an outstanding mount.  Rock solid and repeatable. The mount is a high mount, and places the irons in the bottom 1/3 of the FOV of the Aimpoint, but that suits my preferences Heres a pic of mine, now with the LMT fixed BUIS replaced with the Troy folder: members.cox.net/vseven/LaRue1.jpg

When you had the fixed LMT BUIS installed, was there much difference in cheek weld between iron or dot?
With the folding sight, is there any difference with the weld? Is any neck cranking needed?

Quoted: When you had the fixed LMT BUIS installed, was there much difference in cheek weld between iron or dot? With the folding sight, is there any difference with the weld? Is any neck cranking needed?

+1

I always wanted to know about this.  How much different is the check weld?

I find that I can  totally ignore my LMT BUIS when using my Aimpoint. Its hard to ignore the dot when using the BUIS though.

Weird.

This is how I nail jackrabbits when they jump out from right underneath me. Put the rabbit in the center of the tube and touch off, don't even worry about aligning the dot.

It's quick.

Quoted: I find that I can  totally ignore my LMT BUIS when using my Aimpoint. Its hard to ignore the dot when using the BUIS though.

Through the luck of the draw I was able to obtain a flip-down front and rear sight.  I'll never go back to a FSB if I can help it.  It is really neat to have the clear FOV.  But doing the FS thing with the down Aimpoint, it is not going to happen like this.

Before reading this thread I thought fold-down front sights were, at best, an affectation.

Y'all can give me a swift for that.  I have "seen the light", so to say.